Coitus Interruptus... Flirty Turtles, Fossils and the Flood

[Stripe]

Progress?

Progress?

You're making that assertion.

We're happy you've finally conceded so.

There's nothing wrong with making assertions. The problems arise when you ignore them...

"water, sediment and cement" is a vague assertion at best, NOT evidence.

...or misconstrue them.

These were not presented as evidence.

What you need to do is read. I do not use words lightly.

The evidence is the site itself - from the evidence a volcanic lake and the layers in which the turtles were found, what type of turtles they are (all the same type) what position they were in.

Yep. All the things Darwinists typically ignore.

I've pointed this out multiple times, but you're incapable of discussing the topic at hand. You keep reverting to your tired rabbit trails, which are always the same no matter what fossils we're talking about.

They are vague.

Nope. Necessary, remember?

Define "cement"

You don't know what cement is? :AMR:

How about sediment? Do I have to GTFY as well?

Water? :noid:

Explain why this has any bearing on the discussion.

If I have to explain why cement is necessary, you are not qualified to debate this topic. And you need me to define the word.

I haven't seen any geology textbooks or sites assert these three things in reference to fossilization.

Perhaps you'll stop parroting text books and start talking science. :thumb:

Three things are necessary to form rocks:
1. Water.
2. Sediment.
3. Cement.

Calling someone stupid is generally a sign you've lost the argument. Especially when the "stupid person" is making a good point.

:darwinsm:

That moron wouldn't know a sensible question if it whacked him with a cricket bat.

 

[Alate_One]

We're happy you've finally conceded so.

There's nothing wrong with making assertions. The problems arise when you ignore them...

As you've completely ignored the explanation present in the OP.

Do you or do you not accept that the Messel pit is a former volcanic caldera that became a lake?

Nope. Necessary, remember?

Because you say so. And I should take your word for it because?

You don't know what cement is? :AMR:

Well it could be the bag of stuff you buy from the store. What we're talking about here is slate, which splits along a particular plane rather easily unlike actual cement. So I don't actually see the need for "cement" in the formation of slate. If it was cemented together, it wouldn't come apart so easily. If you've ever been in a creek and seen a sandbar you'd have seen the same kind of layers shown in the video below - in this case tree leaves but a similar taphonomy to the Messel pit though considerably younger.

How about sediment? Do I have to GTFY as well?

The standard definition of sediment as being "stuff that settles out of a liquid" which could be anything.

 

[Stripe]

As you've completely ignored the explanation present in the OP.

Nope. I've read the links, as well as the ones you provided.

And this is tacit admission that you've ignored the fundamentals.

Do you or do you not accept that the Messel pit is a former volcanic caldera that became a lake?

Sure. If it's slate as you say, there must be some source of heat around.

Because you say so. And I should take your word for it because?

You could tell us how to make rocks without water, sediment or cement, and then show how it is reasonable to say that happened in this case. :idunno:

Well it could be the bag of stuff you buy from the store.

It could be. But you're just being dense.

What we're talking about here is slate, which splits along a particular plane rather easily unlike actual cement. So I don't actually see the need for "cement" in the formation of slate.

So your assertion is that because it breaks, it cannot have cement in it? Do you know anything about geology? Sedimentary rocks require three things: Water, sediment and cement. This is not controversial. that you're arguing with me exposes how desperate you are to insulate your Darwinism from scrutiny.

If it was cemented together, it wouldn't come apart so easily.

And yet it is rock. You cannot turn sediment into rock without cement.

The standard definition of sediment as being "stuff that settles out of a liquid" which could be anything.

https://youtu.be/rmomWPfkcO4?t=5m15s

"There's a mark on the bat, but it could come from anywhere."

 

[6days]

First you denied that comparative genomics is based in evolutionary theory, even though books written by geneticists who work in the field directly state that it is.

They state it's based on homology and believe the reason is common ancestry. Other geneticists state it's based on homology and believe the reason is a common Designer.

Evolutionary theory has actually hindered science leading to false conclusions about gemmules, useless organs, pseudo genes, junk DNA, etc.

Yeah, "ad hominem" involves a personal attack. So what was the personal attack I made against Lightner? Where I noted that she's a retired veterinarian? That she's a creationist? That she hasn't done work in comparative genomics?

Yes... Exactly. You ignored her argument and instead attacked her suggesting she wasn't qualified. We could basically eliminate everything you have ever said In TOL, if we accepted that as a logical argument. Urban Dictionary says an ad hominem is "An attack upon an opponent in order to discredit their arguement or opinion. Ad hominems are used by immature and/or unintelligent people because they are unable to counter their opponent using logic and intelligence"

 

[6days]

Do you or do you not accept that the Messel pit is a former volcanic caldera that became a lake?

Do you or do you not accept that the fountains of the deep opened flooding the earth? (Causing volcanic activity)

 

[6days]

Don't you think that the turbulence caused by rapidly dumping huge amounts of silt would cause the animals to be dispersed?

Likely most often...sure.
We're these turtles killed by poisonous gas then rapidly buried and preserved in sediment? Or, did the simply have a 'dump truck load' of sediment 'freezing' them in everyday activities, as we see in other fossils mentioned in the article. There was a global flood..... Fossils worldwide support the Biblical account.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Likely most often...sure.
We're these turtles killed by poisonous gas then rapidly buried and preserved in sediment? Or, did the simply have a 'dump truck load' of sediment 'freezing' them in everyday activities, as we see in other fossils mentioned in the article.

In a volcanic lake, there may not be a need for rapid burial. There are lakes that have such perfect conditions that decay is virtually stopped. You would have to look at the rock surrounding the fossils to determine if it was one large dump of sediment or progressive layering.

There was a global flood..... Fossils worldwide support the Biblical account.

Except that they don't. You have claimed the dinosaurs and humans coexisted yet there is nothing in the fossil record that supports that assertion at all. Dinosaur bones and human bones are never found together. For that matter, dinosaur bones are not found with the bones of any animals that live with us today.

 

[Alate_One]

Do you or do you not accept that the fountains of the deep opened flooding the earth? (Causing volcanic activity)

Nothing in that Biblical quote necessitates volcanic activity. Nor should it be taken as a scientific assessment of what was going on. The heavens were also said to have floodgates.

 

[Jose Fly]

They state it's based on homology and believe the reason is common ancestry.

And they put that to the test by applying their evolution-based model to the genetic data....and it predicted genetic function to a 96% degree of accuracy.

Other geneticists state it's based on homology and believe the reason is a common Designer.

So? Let me know when they get around to putting that to a test.

Yes... Exactly. You ignored her argument and instead attacked her suggesting she wasn't qualified.

So you are actually saying that a retired veterinarian is more qualified to comment on the field of comparative genetics than....geneticists.

I'll just let that speak for itself.

We could basically eliminate everything you have ever said In TOL, if we accepted that as a logical argument.

Why?

 

[George Affleck]

That's funny, I was sure evolutionists believed that dinosaurs and platypuses lived alongside each other.

 

[Jonahdog]

Do you or do you not accept that the fountains of the deep opened flooding the earth? (Causing volcanic activity)

No, that is just silly.

 

[6days]

That's funny, I was sure evolutionists believed that dinosaurs and platypuses lived alongside each other.

They also believed coelacanths and humans did not live alongside each other.

 

[6days]

And they put that to the test by applying their evolution-based model to the genetic data....and it predicted genetic function to a 96% degree of accuracy.

We already know that genetic function can be predicted by homology. Even evolutionists admit that.
But Jose...don't be fooled by an evolutionist quoting percentages based on evolutionary phylogenetic predictions. Surely you realize there have been hundreds of different and opposing phylogenetic trees. Science has been hindered by beliefs in those mythical trees.

So you are actually saying that a retired veterinarian is more qualified to comment on the field of comparative genetics than....geneticists.

Haaaaaa..... From ad hominem fallacy to another straw man. (No, I did not say that)

 

[6days]

In a volcanic lake, there may not be a need for rapid burial. There are lakes that have such perfect conditions that decay is virtually stopped. You would have to look at the rock surrounding the fossils to determine if it was one large dump of sediment or progressive layering.

You seem willing to accept any explanation other than one which is consistent with God's Word. Are you aware of any locations on earth where animals become fossilized in volcanic lakes as speculated by evolutionists? Dead organisms are consumed by bacteria even in ocean depths where oxidation doesn't have any effect. Cabinet.....the evidence of fossilized mating turtles is consistent with rapid burial evidence found throughout the world. And, it speaks of a catastrophic event. When a whale, or a jellyfish dies...it does not turn into a fossil. If a fish dies while eating, or giving birth it does not turn into a stone. The fossil record provides excellent evidence in support of Scripture.

 

[6days]

Nothing in that Biblical quote necessitates volcanic activity. Nor should it be taken as a scientific assessment of what was going on. The heavens were also said to have floodgates.

Volcanic activity is consistent with God's Word, and the Global flood model.
Alate, I suspect you don't have trouble with any type of literature that uses figures of speech, other than God's Word. If someone tells you it was raining cats and dogs....or that the floodgates were opened....you understand. When God tells us He created in 6 days.....created Eve from Adam's rib....highest mountains covered with water....rose from the dead on third day... It is told as literal true history.

 

[Jose Fly]

We already know that genetic function can be predicted by homology. Even evolutionists admit that.
But Jose...don't be fooled by an evolutionist quoting percentages based on evolutionary phylogenetic predictions. Surely you realize there have been hundreds of different and opposing phylogenetic trees. Science has been hindered by beliefs in those mythical trees.

Again 6days....you are hilarious to watch. "Deny, deny, deny....no matter what."

Now it's "Don't be fooled by those evolutionists and their highly useful results!! Deny, deny, deny!" :rotfl:

From ad hominem fallacy to another straw man. (No, I did not say that)

You're not making sense. When I showed that comparative genetics is based on evolutionary theory....by citing actual geneticists who work in that field, you responded with a quote from a retired veterinarian.

Why did you do that if you didn't think the retired vet was more qualified to speak about comparative genomics than geneticists?

 

[George Affleck]

Don't you think that the turbulence caused by rapidly dumping huge amounts of silt would cause the animals to be dispersed? Tons of rapidly moving dirt is dumped into the water and forces the water out of its way. Its called a land slide tsunami. Why was this sediment deposited in sufficient quantity yet slowly enough to not to disturb the mating turtles?

This is an objection based on a narrow, evolutionary view of catastrophism. The flood was not all violence all the time.

Dumping huge amounts of silt is not necessarily part of the turbulence. Turbulence is caused by volcanic/tectonic activity and the opening up of fissures in the earth's crust where most of the the water was, forcing a global disturbance of how God had originally ordered the earth's surface. Sediment is then suspended within miles of water and, when the turbulence subsides, depending on granular size, gravity returns it to its lowest point over time. It is not unusual to see, in river deltas, silt carried by moving water still suspended when it reaches still water.

Nor are we limited to thinking that all things needed to work identically or with the same timing over every part of the earth. There would undoubtedly have been areas of more severe cataclysm than others, and subsequent local events (see Grand Canyon). It is also possible that while the water pressure was being violently released in one area, another area was advanced or retarded in the process.

Once the waters began to recede, there would be pockets of surface water (large ones) that, in rushing off the surface still carry huge amounts of silt. But as we should know, even today's streams and rivers contain, every once in awhile, still waters where things tend to collect.

We are also not opposed to volcanic lakes with anaerobic bottoms that capture animals intact. In fact, it is entirely possible for volcanic activity to produce toxic chemicals in lakes within a few days. What we have a problem with is the timing of the events that led to the death of the turtles and the assumption that eons of time were needed. Huge amounts of time are not required.

A possibility that has not been discussed is heat. Turtles are ectothermic. Their body temperature fluctuates depending on their environment. If volcanic issues, present around the time of the flood, overheated the lake bottom and produced a thermal inversion, mating turtles (I'm still not convinced) could be slowly cooked to death without them knowing it. When they reached the bottom of the lake silt could cover them rapidly within relative protection from swirling waters above.

 

[Alate_One]

Volcanic activity is consistent with God's Word, and the Global flood model.
Alate, I suspect you don't have trouble with any type of literature that uses figures of speech, other than God's Word. If someone tells you it was raining cats and dogs....or that the floodgates were opened....you understand. When God tells us He created in 6 days.....created Eve from Adam's rib....highest mountains covered with water....rose from the dead on third day... It is told as literal true history.

Why are floodgates figurative? Simply because you know there are no such literal things. If you were an ancient person, there's no way you could know that.

Creationists love to claim they take the whole Bible literally, but are perfectly happy to make things figurative when they disagree with what they accept as science. You do the very things you accuse me of doing and worse since you make things up that aren't even there.

 

[George Affleck]

Why are floodgates figurative? Simply because you know there are no such literal things. If you were an ancient person, there's no way you could know that.

Creationists love to claim they take the whole Bible literally, but are perfectly happy to make things figurative when they disagree with what they accept as science. You do the very things you accuse me of doing and worse since you make things up that aren't even there.

The floodgates are literal. Literal means 'actual' or 'real'.
It is the best way to convey the idea that someone (God) is holding something back at His discretion and under His control until the appropriate moment. It is also the best way for Him to tell us that the water from above entered through selected avenues known to Him only. Similarly the fountains of the great deep are literal in that they were under pressure until the moment when God, in His wisdom, decided to unleash them by parting the earth's crust.

 

[Jonahdog]

The floodgates are literal. Literal means 'actual' or 'real'.
It is the best way to convey the idea that someone (God) is holding something back at His discretion and under His control until the appropriate moment. It is also the best way for Him to tell us that the water from above entered through selected avenues known to Him only. Similarly the fountains of the great deep are literal in that they were under pressure until the moment when God, in His wisdom, decided to unleash them by parting the earth's crust.

Well, no.
But more importantly from a theological standpoint, since your understanding of the real world is a bit suspect, your last sentence suggests your deity does not know the future.