ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Interlude & DIRECT ASSAULT (Part 3) :execute:

[Tambora]

Which resulted in a universal breach between God and men enslaved by Satan.

I can show with scripture that ENMITY between GOD and man was NOT part of the curse of the fall.
The enmity mentioned is the enmity between mankind and the serpent, not enmity between mankind and GOD.
Why are you adding an enmity between GOD and mankind to the story????

Who was to be the father of the human race, if not Eve's husband?

No one has said a thing about the father of Eve's children not being Adam.
Try to stay on topic, Nang.
The story of the fall of Adam and Eve DOES NOT mention any enmity between GOD and mankind.
It DOES mention enmity between the serpent and mankind.

If you thinks so, define it and prove it with Holy Scripture please . . .

Do you seriously think that GOD walking and talking with Adam AFTER the fall is enmity between them?
Was GOD lovingly covering their nakedness an act of ENMITY between them?
Looks to me like GOD never abandoned His relationship with Adam. GOD is still conversing with Adam and his children, as we see Him encouraging Cain to do well.

 

[glorydaz]

I can show with scripture that ENMITY between GOD and man was NOT part of the curse of the fall.
The enmity mentioned is the enmity between mankind and the serpent, not enmity between mankind and GOD.
Why are you adding an enmity between GOD and mankind to the story????


No one has said a thing about the father of Eve's children not being Adam.
Try to stay on topic, Nang.
The story of the fall of Adam and Eve DOES NOT mention any enmity between GOD and mankind.
It DOES mention enmity between the serpent and mankind.



Do you seriously think that GOD walking and talking with Adam AFTER the fall is enmity between them?
Was GOD lovingly covering their nakedness an act of ENMITY between them?
Looks to me like GOD never abandoned His relationship with Adam. GOD is still conversing with Adam and his children, as we see Him encouraging Cain to do well.

:first:

 

[Tambora]

Very true. If they hadn't, God would not have talked to them and covered their nakedness. :thumb:

I know!
GOD was still doing loving/caring things with Adam.
That is not ENMITY.

 

[glorydaz]

I know!
GOD was still doing loving/caring things with Adam.
That is not ENMITY.

Indeed. God knew when he gave Adam the commandment, that he was putting Adam under the schoolmaster. Adam needed to learn he could't trust himself apart from God.

Romans 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.​

 

[dodge]

The only enmity mentioned in the fall of Adam and Eve was enmity between the woman and the serpent, and between the woman's seed and the serpent's seed.
It mentions no enmity between Adam and GOD.
And it mentions no alienation from GOD.
GOD and Adam still had a relationship after the fall.

You cannot be serious ! God asked ADAM HAVE YOU eaten off the tree I commanded you not to. Then God expelled Adam from the garden of Eden barring Adam's access to the tree of life.

 

[Nang]

I can show with scripture that ENMITY between GOD and man was NOT part of the curse of the fall.

Oh yeah? Well go ahead and do so . . .

The story of the fall of Adam and Eve DOES NOT mention any enmity between GOD and mankind.

Oh yeah? Then why have all the sons of Adam been cursed with death?

And why did the Christ of God have to suffer and die on a cross?

 

[Nang]

You cannot be serious ! God asked ADAM HAVE YOU eaten off the tree I commanded you not to. Then God expelled Adam from the garden of Eden barring Adam's access to the tree of life.

I think she has gone a little bit nuts . . .

 

[glorydaz]

You cannot be serious ! God asked ADAM HAVE YOU eaten off the tree I commanded you not to. Then God expelled Adam from the garden of Eden barring Adam's access to the tree of life.

God cursed the serpent, and He cursed the ground.

 

[glorydaz]

Do you seriously think that GOD walking and talking with Adam AFTER the fall is enmity between them?
Was GOD lovingly covering their nakedness an act of ENMITY between them?
Looks to me like GOD never abandoned His relationship with Adam. GOD is still conversing with Adam and his children, as we see Him encouraging Cain to do well.

What great insight you have there, Tam. In fact, it brought something to mind while I was reading what you wrote. The very first thing God does is curse the serpent. Then we see the promise of the woman's "seed" defeating the serpent.

Gen. 3:14-15 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.​

God no sooner finishes lining out the punishment for Adam, including returning to the dust, when Adam, by an act of faith, calls his wife's name Eve....the mother of all living. He trusted God they would have a children before he returned to the dust of the ground. It's the same act of faith that was Abraham's when he believed God about his promised son.

Gen. 3:19-21 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.​

Then God clothed them....such a beautiful picture of the cross. You're correct, their relationship was restored, and that point you made about God advising Cain is what made me understand. You rock, Tam. It's so good to have such a dear sister in the Lord to search the Scriptures with. :thumb:

 

[Danoh]

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

YET sinners?

5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

As for God's dealings with Adam and Eve after The Fall, and or the basis of His dealings with them despite their enmity in their flesh, from that Fall's point, forward?

The coming Cross of Christ was His basis.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

In His forbearance, as He looked ahead to the Cross, and to that day wherein He would announce the following, He passed over their sin.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

At this time?

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Danoh]

You must be speaking from experience.

Experience with your hypocrisy.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

If there were no scriptures that support and teach original sin it would be fair to call it Augustine's doctrine, bit it just isn't so.

[MENTION=9592]Shasta[/MENTION] dropped an amazing explanation as to why Augustine tainted the very intent of Rm. 5:12-18, and [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] has a fantastic thread on this matter. I will try to drudge it up.

"Classical Original Sin" doctrine that "Imputes" Adam's sin to mankind and defines us as being born spiritually dead is a post cannon completion error that was caused by Augustine.

It is the very foundation of Predestination, Total Depravity and the attribution of characteristics of "Satan" to God.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Amen!!! By overlooking the very words that you have quoted... the "Augustine" crowd have imputed "Sin" upon God and the very characteristics of Satan himself. Note how the Augustine crowd gets upset when characteristics of the Desolator are brought up?

It's like the Augustine theology is hardwired to encourage people to hide the Devil's wiles!

God is GOOD... "All the Time"... and this study is only emphasizing that for me.

:thumb: for the perfect scripture.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

What's changed? We still can't be righteous "in one's own strength".

When you say this... people assume you speak of "Carnal" righteousness and jump on the idea that we are "works" based. This is hilarious, because you are clearly emphasizing our ability to choose to walk with Christ.

If what the Augustine crowd insists was true, then Enoch would not have been able to walk so closely with God that He was taken "Home" with God.

It's funny how the very people that attribute "wickedness" to God, are continually looking to attack those of us that seek to Glory the perfection of Jesus' Love for all humanity and His perfection of Justice, Humility and Mercy!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Another sweeping under the rug is that of those who clearly, are ever allowing their flesh to deceive them into believing its' lie that their being themselves is being like Christ.

:think:

I hope you are just throwing this out... You've been following the OP series from the beginning and you are surely aware that when the bible speaks of "human righteousness" it is speaking of our ability to "choose" to walk with God.

No one speaking here that believes we are born with a "clean slate" and able to "choose" God of our own free will are disenchanted to believe that the works of our flesh are anything but "filthy rags".

The very point of all of this is that God has never "estranged us". We "estrange" Him. God didn't "impute" Adam's sin to mankind, we imputed sin to God through "Doctrines" like Augustine "original Sin" that essentially gets the old Goat off the map and imputes the Goats deceit onto Christ.

There is no lack of understanding that we are all in utter need for God from birth and "incapable" of working our way to heaven in what is being said.

- EE

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

They go to the land of the dead. The Hebrew and Greek readers here tell us it is called "shoel" I believe. They did not go to heaven, as told by the Lord Jesus Christ. He said no one went to heaven or had been there more correctly, except him.

Nick... if this were true... then the account of Enoch would be false...

23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.​

On the other hand... to defend you dispensationally ...

Hebrews further enunciates this matter in a way that still supports what you are saying...

Heb. 11

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.​

The point of making peace with your idea is this... Augustine Original Sin... takes away mans ability to naturally "SEEK GOD". This again proves that we are capable of "Seeking God out" and in doing so, are grasped by God through our "Faith".

Augustine Original Sin denies this and shows man to be incapable of "Seeking Righteousness" or in more specific terms... Seeking God out through "Faith" in his Goodness, Mercy and Love.

Our flesh is "filthy rags" compared to the the "Flesh" or "Glory" (Heb. 1:3) of God.

Why would someone as scripturally versed as you "need" to believe in the very doctrine that is foundational to the heresy of reformed teaching that suggests we are incapable of seeking God out of our own FreeWill?

If you are pressing me to never defend a Calvinist again, because of my defense of Lon on an earlier thread... I do believe you have succeeded. I'm so disgusted with the foundational implications of "Total Depravity" and "Augustine Original Sin" that I have no tolerance for any point of extra biblical doctrine that twists scripture, removes Free Will and imputes oppression to the very nature of God.

Heb. 11

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.​

This verse is elusive in explaining the "where" are they of the matter, but... it indeed shows that mankind was dispensationally void of the complete provisions of God until Christ. This would be an entirely different OP though. It is a fantastic study that will obviously occur in the future.

:thumb: for emphasizing this matter!

- EE

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

All men are born with an earthly physical body and a human nature.


Babies die (physically) for the same reason we all die. When Adam sinned, man was cut off from the tree of life. God made it clear that man would return to the dust of the ground, and with good reason, I would say, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. We need to go into the ground when we die, and be resurrected with a new spiritual body.





I believe Paul answers that here. Adam was the first man, earthly, and Christ was the second man, heavenly.

1 Cor. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.​

1 Cor. 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.​

By the first man, came death, and by the second man came the resurrection from the dead.

This is speaking of our body.

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.​

Here, too, we can see that we bear the image of Adam (earthly) (natural body of flesh and blood), and at the resurrection of the dead, we will bear the image of the Last Adam (heavenly) spiritual body.

1 Cor. 15:48-49 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.​

This is on the money!

 

[Danoh]

Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Lol, oy vey - He is referring to those guiltless of what those not showing them mercy for, were not showing them mercy for - their Prophets: whom they had often condemned and plotted against; for example.

Lol - I've long lost track of how many passages you and Tam have been reading things into, towards your argument on this thread.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I saw that and I'm not buying it. I hope you will spend some time examining the verses I gave you. The Bible itself has the answers. You'll find all kinds of writings from men.

The problems we're seeing on earth is a result of our being condemned to live in this corrupt world with the god of this world running things.

The serpents nests of Extra Biblical Doctrine seem to come out in the midst of this discussion. Why anyone would believe that (1 John 2:27) and the scriptures themselves aren't enough perplexes the daylights out of me.

Why do these very people have issue with your last sentence? I'll go ahead and say it. One cannot understand the wiles of the ruler of this world and grasp a single doctrine that is outside of the 66 books. This would explain why those that trust the words of the creation have issue with attributing the very fact that extra biblical doctrines that are placed as lenses in equal to scripture are no more than the very tactic of Satan that was first seen in the garden.

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”​

It's funny how the very first warning of scripture about wickedness is seen in the carnage of listening to the words of the creation over the Creator. Not funny ha-ha... but funny as in utterly ironic and "eye opening".

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The only enmity mentioned in the fall of Adam and Eve was enmity between the woman and the serpent, and between the woman's seed and the serpent's seed.
It mentions no enmity between Adam and GOD.
And it mentions no alienation from GOD.
GOD and Adam still had a relationship after the fall.

Isn't that odd? People that embrace Augustine Original Sin confuse God with Satan. Imagine that?!?