Church and believers are not to judge, God and Christ will judge.

[Right Divider]

@DFT_Dave

2Cor 3:6-11 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (3:7) But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: (3:8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? (3:9) For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. (3:10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. (3:11) For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.​

If you think that you are following the "ministration of death/ministration of condemnation", you're doing it wrong.

 

[Clete]

The question is not "should we put ourselves under the law",

the question is, is there any of the ten commandments that Christians should not practice as Christians today?

I know what you're asking. The answer is, NO!

The Answer is we should be practicing them.

No we absolutely should NOT.

It would be better for the Christian to forget that they exist.

Paul's list of what will keep you from receiving eternal life are contain in the ten commandments.

You are ignoring the context and he never once said that we ought to follow the Ten Commandments.

I'm curious to see how long it will go before you catch the drift of what I (we) are saying.

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 9 Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19–21 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. 2 Honor thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

--Dave

Unbelievers will not see the kingdom of God because of sin, yes. That much is not in dispute. Believers, on the other hand, even if they sleep with another man's wife, are not identified as adulterers (except by the civil authorities). They are identified in Christ. His righteousness and ONLY His righteousness is now their righteousness. Their wickedness has been removed - washed clean by the shed blood of Jesus Christ who willingly gave His life for sinners.

A person, if he be in Christ, is not and cannot be held accountable by God for ANY sin, no matter how grievous (This is not to be confused with crimes for which we are still accountable to the governing official for having committed.) because Christ has already been held to account for those sins. Double jeopardy is unjust, Dave. Has Jesus died for your sin, or hasn't He? Is Galatians 2:20-21 true or false?

Galatians 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.​

​

There is a question you should ask me in response to this, if you are following the logic.

 

[Clete]

I do not murder because the law says so.

Then your abstinence from murder will profit you nothing.

I do not murder because it's not the right thing to do.

Better!

The law, and the right thing, are the same thing.

The Spirit also says the same thing.

--Dave

No, they are not the same!

The law has a ministry of death. The right thing leads to life. The law kills, Dave. It is the Spirit (capital S) that gives life. They couldn't be more different.

There is one and only one other thing in the whole of scripture that shared with the Law, the ministry of death. Care to guess what that was?



P.S. Dave, you are so close to seeing something important here! Stick with this and you'll see it.

 

[Derf]

You are ignoring the context and he never once said that we ought to follow the Ten Commandments

He did, here:
Galatians 5:13-14 KJV — For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[DFT_Dave]

James says that Abraham was justified by WORKS. James 2:21

This what James actually said
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 See thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This passage needs no commentary, it's very clear as to what it says and means. You can argue that James is wrong if you like, or you can accept that it is true.

The works, as per Abraham, talked about in James, obviously are not the works of the law given to Israel by Moses. The works are doing what God commanded Abraham to do, and believing God would still fulfill all of his promises to him.

What Jesus said
Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments, "Matthew 28:19 Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing [in water] them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Jesus did not say to teach the Law of Moses, because Jesus has replaced it with his teaching. But, Jesus's teaching does not nullify the moral laws of Moses, just everything else that pertained to Temple life and practice. We are now the Temple of God...

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

I do not murder because the law says so.

I do not murder because it's not the right thing to do.

The law, and the right thing, are the same thing.

The Spirit also says the same thing.

That right there is called being a double-minded man.

A double minded man is one who says I cannot decide if something is true or not true.

I said the commandment not to murder is both a law of God and the right thing to do. That's not being double minded. It's a statement that both statements are true, not that one is true and the other is not true.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

A person, if he be in Christ, is not and cannot be held accountable by God for ANY sin, no matter how grievous

Galatians 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;

If Christ lives in us we will not live in sin, that does not mean that we will never ever sin again, I'm sure we all agree on that.

Roman 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It seems to me that Paul says If we continue to live in sin, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and Galatians 5:19–21, we will not inherit eternal life even if we are a believer or not. One could make the argument that saying we are a Christian does not make us one--false believer. Or, we can make the argument that being a Christian does not mean we can never fall away from Christianity and end up losing your salvation.--eternal security.

--Dave

 

[Derf]

If Christ lives in us we will not live in sin, that does not mean that we will never ever sin again, I'm sure we all agree on that.

Roman 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It seems to me that Paul says If we continue to live in sin, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and Galatians 5:19–21, we will not inherit eternal life even if we are a believer or not. One could make the argument that saying we are a Christian does not make us one--false believer. Or, we can make the argument that being a Christian does not mean we can never fall away from Christianity and end up losing your salvation.--eternal security.

--Dave

Part of believing that Christ is Lord is that we are willing to do what He tells us. Any "Lord" that you refuse to obey is not really your Lord.

 

[Derf]

I found the following on a church's statement of faith: "Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent. One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come."

Many believe there is a distinction between judgment and to judge. "Judgment (noun) is the cognitive process of forming an opinion, discernment, or the result of a decision, often based on facts and critical thinking. To judge (verb) is the act of condemning" [verbally not just to punish] and I would add rebuking and possibly shaming. Given these definitions, would you affirm or oppose the given statement of faith? Do you believe it is the role of the church to judge (verb) or not? I will argue the church is not to judge and that the statement of faith is flawed.

To judge merely means to come to a judgment about something. So of course believers are to judge believers in some fashion. Paul judged both the sinner and the church in Corinthians. And he said we should not go before a secular magistrate when a conflict exists between church members, but to select the lowest (least qualified) member of the church to judge the matter BECAUSE we will judge both the world and angels.