Church and believers are not to judge, God and Christ will judge.

[Right Divider]

@DFT_Dave

2Cor 3:6-11 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (3:7) But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: (3:8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? (3:9) For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. (3:10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. (3:11) For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.​

If you think that you are following the "ministration of death/ministration of condemnation", you're doing it wrong.

 

[Clete]

The question is not "should we put ourselves under the law",

the question is, is there any of the ten commandments that Christians should not practice as Christians today?

I know what you're asking. The answer is, NO!

The Answer is we should be practicing them.

No we absolutely should NOT.

It would be better for the Christian to forget that they exist.

Paul's list of what will keep you from receiving eternal life are contain in the ten commandments.

You are ignoring the context and he never once said that we ought to follow the Ten Commandments.

I'm curious to see how long it will go before you catch the drift of what I (we) are saying.

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 9 Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19–21 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. 2 Honor thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

--Dave

Unbelievers will not see the kingdom of God because of sin, yes. That much is not in dispute. Believers, on the other hand, even if they sleep with another man's wife, are not identified as adulterers (except by the civil authorities). They are identified in Christ. His righteousness and ONLY His righteousness is now their righteousness. Their wickedness has been removed - washed clean by the shed blood of Jesus Christ who willingly gave His life for sinners.

A person, if he be in Christ, is not and cannot be held accountable by God for ANY sin, no matter how grievous (This is not to be confused with crimes for which we are still accountable to the governing official for having committed.) because Christ has already been held to account for those sins. Double jeopardy is unjust, Dave. Has Jesus died for your sin, or hasn't He? Is Galatians 2:20-21 true or false?

Galatians 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.​

​

There is a question you should ask me in response to this, if you are following the logic.

 

[Clete]

I do not murder because the law says so.

Then your abstinence from murder will profit you nothing.

I do not murder because it's not the right thing to do.

Better!

The law, and the right thing, are the same thing.

The Spirit also says the same thing.

--Dave

No, they are not the same!

The law has a ministry of death. The right thing leads to life. The law kills, Dave. It is the Spirit (capital S) that gives life. They couldn't be more different.

There is one and only one other thing in the whole of scripture that shared with the Law, the ministry of death. Care to guess what that was?



P.S. Dave, you are so close to seeing something important here! Stick with this and you'll see it.

 

[Derf]

You are ignoring the context and he never once said that we ought to follow the Ten Commandments

He did, here:
Galatians 5:13-14 KJV — For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[DFT_Dave]

James says that Abraham was justified by WORKS. James 2:21

This what James actually said
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 See thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This passage needs no commentary, it's very clear as to what it says and means. You can argue that James is wrong if you like, or you can accept that it is true.

The works, as per Abraham, talked about in James, obviously are not the works of the law given to Israel by Moses. The works are doing what God commanded Abraham to do, and believing God would still fulfill all of his promises to him.

What Jesus said
Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments, "Matthew 28:19 Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing [in water] them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Jesus did not say to teach the Law of Moses, because Jesus has replaced it with his teaching. But, Jesus's teaching does not nullify the moral laws of Moses, just everything else that pertained to Temple life and practice. We are now the Temple of God...

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

I do not murder because the law says so.

I do not murder because it's not the right thing to do.

The law, and the right thing, are the same thing.

The Spirit also says the same thing.

That right there is called being a double-minded man.

A double minded man is one who says I cannot decide if something is true or not true.

I said the commandment not to murder is both a law of God and the right thing to do. That's not being double minded. It's a statement that both statements are true, not that one is true and the other is not true.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

A person, if he be in Christ, is not and cannot be held accountable by God for ANY sin, no matter how grievous

Galatians 2: 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me;

If Christ lives in us we will not live in sin, that does not mean that we will never ever sin again, I'm sure we all agree on that.

Roman 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It seems to me that Paul says If we continue to live in sin, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and Galatians 5:19–21, we will not inherit eternal life even if we are a believer or not. One could make the argument that saying we are a Christian does not make us one--false believer. Or, we can make the argument that being a Christian does not mean we can never fall away from Christianity and end up losing your salvation.--eternal security.

--Dave

 

[Derf]

If Christ lives in us we will not live in sin, that does not mean that we will never ever sin again, I'm sure we all agree on that.

Roman 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It seems to me that Paul says If we continue to live in sin, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and Galatians 5:19–21, we will not inherit eternal life even if we are a believer or not. One could make the argument that saying we are a Christian does not make us one--false believer. Or, we can make the argument that being a Christian does not mean we can never fall away from Christianity and end up losing your salvation.--eternal security.

--Dave

Part of believing that Christ is Lord is that we are willing to do what He tells us. Any "Lord" that you refuse to obey is not really your Lord.

 

[Derf]

I found the following on a church's statement of faith: "Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent. One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come."

Many believe there is a distinction between judgment and to judge. "Judgment (noun) is the cognitive process of forming an opinion, discernment, or the result of a decision, often based on facts and critical thinking. To judge (verb) is the act of condemning" [verbally not just to punish] and I would add rebuking and possibly shaming. Given these definitions, would you affirm or oppose the given statement of faith? Do you believe it is the role of the church to judge (verb) or not? I will argue the church is not to judge and that the statement of faith is flawed.

To judge merely means to come to a judgment about something. So of course believers are to judge believers in some fashion. Paul judged both the sinner and the church in Corinthians. And he said we should not go before a secular magistrate when a conflict exists between church members, but to select the lowest (least qualified) member of the church to judge the matter BECAUSE we will judge both the world and angels.

 

[DFT_Dave]

I did not intend this thread to be about Mid Acts, but I'm happy that know I think I understand it, or maybe not. I would like to conclude this thread with some main overview points from the two positions we are contrasting, which I don't want to debate but only want for clarity.

Mid Acts vs what? How would you describe this?

1. Mid Acts says Jesus and the disciples taught faith plus works. Paul taught faith alone. Yes or no (true or false, briefly explain)

2. Mid Acts is Calvinistic -- Eternal security. Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

3. Mid Acts sees any mention of the law as meaning the whole Mosaic Law. The other view sees a distinction between moral law in the Law and everything else. Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

4. Mid Acts sees two churches not one church. Jesus with apostles to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

5. I see Mid Acts advocates as Christian friends. Do Mid Acts people here consider those of us who don't agree with Mid Acts as Christian?
Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

This what James actually said
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 See thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

My apologies Dave, you must be upset that that I didn't mention faith. Yes, people always need faith. But James says that faith is NOT enough, i.e., NOT BY FAITH ONLY.

Eg. James says that Abraham was justified by faith PLUS WORKS. Paul says that Abraham was justified by FAITH ALONE.

Rom 4:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

This passage needs no commentary, it's very clear as to what it says and means. You can argue that James is wrong if you like, or you can accept that it is true.

I don't argue with James. I understand that James was a Jew under the law writing to the twelve tribes of Israel (James 1:1).

The works, as per Abraham, talked about in James, obviously are not the works of the law given to Israel by Moses. The works are doing what God commanded Abraham to do, and believing God would still fulfill all of his promises to him.

Nitpicking which "kind" of works is pointless.... James says FAITH PLUS WORKS.

What Jesus said
Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments, "Matthew 28:19 Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing [in water] them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

AGAIN, Jesus was a minister of the CIRCUMCISION (Rom 15:8). Jesus came to ISRAEL (He said so many times).

Jesus did not say to teach the Law of Moses, because Jesus has replaced it with his teaching.

Again, an UNSUPPORTED CLAIM without evidence.

In Matthew 28:20 Jesus told 11 Jews to "teach them to observe ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU".

Part of the ALL THINGS is recorded in Matthew 23:

Matt 23:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(23:1) Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, (23:2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: (23:3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

Do you even understand what Jesus means by "sit in Moses' seat"? That's talking about the LAW.

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; means KEEP THE LAW!

But, Jesus's teaching does not nullify the moral laws of Moses, just everything else that pertained to Temple life and practice. We are now the Temple of God...

Dispensations Dave, until you understand how God works... you will remain clueless.

 

[Right Divider]

Mid Acts vs what? How would you describe this?

1. Mid Acts says Jesus and the disciples taught faith plus works. Paul taught faith alone. Yes or no (true or false, briefly explain)

That is not Mid-Acts, that's Bible.

2. Mid Acts is Calvinistic -- Eternal security. Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

NO, Mid-Acts could not be further from Calvinism.

We are secure in Christ Dave, Paul makes that crystal clear.

3. Mid Acts sees any mention of the law as meaning the whole Mosaic Law. The other view sees a distinction between moral law in the Law and everything else. Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

Trying to divide the law is pointless and ridiculous.

4. Mid Acts sees two churches not one church. Jesus with apostles to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

Mid-Acts acknowledges what the Bible plainly says. God was dealing with Israel (and the law), but they are temporarily fallen. Now God is dealing with all mankind without distinction (and solely by grace).

5. I see Mid Acts advocates as Christian friends. Do Mid Acts people here consider those of us who don't agree with Mid Acts as Christian?
Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

No Dave, we are not Catholics or JW's.

Anyone that trusts in what Christ did for them on the cross can be saved. Even if they are very confused about the details of the Bible.

 

[JudgeRightly]

FAITH PLUSH WORKS

That sounds like a cool name for a plush toy factory.

 

[Right Divider]

That sounds like a cool name for a plush toy factory.

Darn you... I had fixed that already

 

[Clete]

If Christ lives in us we will not live in sin, that does not mean that we will never ever sin again, I'm sure we all agree on that.

Roman 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It seems to me that Paul says If we continue to live in sin, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and Galatians 5:19–21, we will not inherit eternal life even if we are a believer or not. One could make the argument that saying we are a Christian does not make us one--false believer. Or, we can make the argument that being a Christian does not mean we can never fall away from Christianity and end up losing your salvation.--eternal security.

--Dave

It's simply stunning to me how people can read a passage that says one thing and think it means it's opposite!


Let me ask you a question.....

The Law was given through Moses, some 2500 years after Adam died.

Did Adam ever sin?

 

[Clete]

I did not intend this thread to be about Mid Acts, but I'm happy that know I think I understand it, or maybe not. I would like to conclude this thread with some main overview points from the two positions we are contrasting, which I don't want to debate but only want for clarity.

Mid Acts vs what? How would you describe this?

1. Mid Acts says Jesus and the disciples taught faith plus works. Paul taught faith alone. Yes or no (true or false, briefly explain)

There is no doubt - it is not disputed - that Jesus and the Twelve taught faith plus works. That is just reading the bible, not a book about Mid-Acts Dispensationalism.

2. Mid Acts is Calvinistic -- Eternal security. Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

HA!

No, Calvinism is fundamentally incompatible with any form of Dispensationalism. They are literally on opposite ends of the theological spectrum.

Even if the two teach something that sounds similar, the premises behind the teaching are completely different and entirely incompatible.

3. Mid Acts sees any mention of the law as meaning the whole Mosaic Law. The other view sees a distinction between moral law in the Law and everything else. Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

Over simplification. We teach that we are not under the law and that if you are doing XYZ or not doing XYZ because there is a list of rules on the wall, then your religious practice will serve only to puff you up because it was done (or not done) in the flesh. You cannot crucify your flesh and feed it too.

4. Mid Acts sees two churches not one church. Jesus with apostles to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

We see Israel and the Body of Christ. Both can rightly be called Christians but they are distinct groups with distinct callings and ministries.

5. I see Mid Acts advocates as Christian friends. Do Mid Acts people here consider those of us who don't agree with Mid Acts as Christian?
Yes or no. (true or false, briefly explain)

--Dave

Of course, yes! Absolutely! They are confused and almost always frustrated Christians because they are attempting to live the life that only Christ can live (i.e. they are attempting to accomplish through their flesh what only the Spirit can do). but they doesn't mean they aren't saved - so long as they believe that God died for their sin and rose again from the dead.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Did Jesus and the apostles teach faith and works?

Matthew 23 Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not you after their works: for they say, and do not.

Jesus does not nullify the Law of Moses because there is nothing bad or evil about the law. God expected Israel to follow the law. Jesus condemns the scribes and the Pharisees because of their works, they were hypocrites who only pretended to follow the law.

Matthew 24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See you not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The importance of Jesus saying the Temple will be destroyed is because all the law of Moses that deals with Temple life, practices, and sacrifices will be done away with because of him, but Jesus did not nullify moral law / sins contained in the law of Moses.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized [in water] every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized [in water]: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

The apostles taught that Temple sacrifices, that were meant to atone for sins, were no longer necessary. But Peter said everyone must repent and be baptized, and so did Paul.

Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, 21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:16 [Ananias tells Paul] And now why tarry thou? arise, and be baptized [in water], and wash away thy sins,

1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

--Dave

 

[Right Divider]

Did Jesus and the apostles teach faith and works?

Matthew 23 Then spoke Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not you after their works: for they say, and do not.

THEIR WORKS Dave

Look at this:

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;​

That simply means KEEP THE LAW.

Again, don't you understand the plain text?

Jesus does not nullify the Law of Moses because there is nothing bad or evil about the law.

Nobody has made that claim. Again, you are beating up YOUR STRAW-MAN.

God expected Israel to follow the law.

Duh

Jesus condemns the scribes and the Pharisees because of their works, they were hypocrites who only pretended to follow the law.

Duh

 

[DFT_Dave]

It's simply stunning to me how people can read a passage that says one thing and think it means it's opposite!

Let me ask you a question.....

The Law was given through Moses, some 2500 years after Adam died.

Did Adam ever sin?s

To commit a sin is not the same as to live in sin which means to keep on sinning. We can all sin but that does not mean we sin all day long.

Romans 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Newness of life does not mean we will never sin again, newness of life means we do not have to live in sin--sin every day.

It's simply stunning to me how people can read a passage that says one thing (Romans 6) and think it means it's opposite!

--Paul and Dave

 

[Right Divider]

To commit a sin is not the same as to live in sin which means to keep on sinning. We can all sin but that does not mean we sin all day long.

You've ignored Clete's question in your supposed response to Clete.

Romans 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Newness of life does not mean we will never sin again, newness of life means we do not have to live in sin--sin every day.

It's simply stunning to me how people can read a passage that says one thing (Romans 6) and think it means it's opposite!

--Paul and Dave

It's blaspheme to claim to speak for Paul when you quote scripture.

It's not about the quantity of sin, Dave. Why are you so dense?