Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

[Truster]

Show us...

If you can't understand this then why should I show you more?

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye trust not, how shall ye trust, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

 

[Apple7]

If you can't understand this then why should I show you more?

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye trust not, how shall ye trust, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

John 3 lays the ground work for proper worship declared in John 4.

Still waiting for your forthcoming example for your assertion...

 

[Truster]

John 3 lays the ground work for proper worship declared in John 4.

Still waiting for your forthcoming example for your assertion...

I have given you a spiritual fact. If you can't understand the fact then you declare that you are blind. Your problem, not mine.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of Elohim: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

[JudgeRightly]

I have given you a spiritual fact. If you can't understand the fact then you declare that you are blind. Your problem, not mine.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of Elohim: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Do you give children spiritual facts and then expect them to immediately understand them with no explanation? If so, you're so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I have given you a spiritual fact. If you can't understand the fact then you declare that you are blind. Your problem, not mine.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of Elohim: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, [JESUS]“Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”[/JESUS] And He laid His hands on them and departed from there. - Matthew 19:13-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew19:13-15&version=NKJV

Truster, you're like the disciples who didn't want the children to come to Christ. Do you understand what I'm saying?

You're so focused on your own beliefs that you attempt to turn people away from Christ. I hope God rebukes you, that you realize how much you have hurt Him and those who seek Him.

 

[Apple7]

I have given you a spiritual fact. If you can't understand the fact then you declare that you are blind. Your problem, not mine.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of Elohim: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

zzzzzzzzzz.............

 

[Truster]

zzzzzzzzzz.............

Arise o sleeper and wake from the dead....

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

One rendered by Trinity-rejecters such as yourself, Trev...

I use mainly the KJV. There could have been a few non-Trinitarians on the translating committee of some modern translations, judging by a few of the marginal notes on Exodus 3:14, and the exclusion of 1 John 5:7 in most modern translations. Some Trinitarians still insist on including 1 John 5:7 – do you?

Psalm 110.1 shows distinction between THREE Persons - not Two. Observe.
A declaration of Yahweh (Father) to my Adonee (Son): Sit at My right hand (Holy Spirit), until I place Your enemies as Your footstool. Psalm 110.1

You are confusing where Jesus was to sit, at the right hand of God the Father, with your syllogism for the Holy Spirit.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?
• God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10
• God the Son…John 2.19-22; 10.17-18; Romans 6.4;
• God the Spirit…Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18
• The Trinity…Romans 10.9; 1 Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37
As usual, Trev.....you fail to take into consideration the whole of scripture...and you allow your cultic worldview to pigeon-hole your study of scripture.
When are you ever going to become a serious student of scripture?

I will rearrange your list as per a reasonable reading of the Scripture
• God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10, Romans 6.4; Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18, Romans 10.9; 1 Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37
I will defer on John 2.19-22; 10.17-18.

Now to progress with Psalm 110:1, this is quoted initially in Hebrews 1:
Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV): 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
This shows the superiority of Jesus over the angels, and proves that Jesus is not Michael the Archangel as claimed by the JWs. It also disproves your assertion that right hand is speaking of the Holy Spirit. While Jesus is seated, the angels are still standing and ministering. Jesus has completed the work of accomplishing salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7,I use mainly the KJV. There could have been a few non-Trinitarians on the translating committee of some modern translations, judging by a few of the marginal notes on Exodus 3:14, and the exclusion of 1 John 5:7 in most modern translations.

So....you admit to using a translation that you disagree with.

What mode of logic are you operating under, Trev...?

Some Trinitarians still insist on including 1 John 5:7 – do you?

Any serious scholar is already cognizant that 1 John 5.7 was not original to the text.

This passage is not required, as there are thousands of other passages promoting a Triune God.

You are confusing where Jesus was to sit, at the right hand of God the Father, with your syllogism for the Holy Spirit.

The only confusion is on your part.

I will rearrange your list as per a reasonable reading of the Scripture
• God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10, Romans 6.4; Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18, Romans 10.9; 1 Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37

The list does not require your approval in the first place, Trev...

I will defer on John 2.19-22; 10.17-18.

Which means you will ignore these passages...

Now to progress with Psalm 110:1, this is quoted initially in Hebrews 1:
Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV): 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
This shows the superiority of Jesus over the angels, and proves that Jesus is not Michael the Archangel as claimed by the JWs. It also disproves your assertion that right hand is speaking of the Holy Spirit. While Jesus is seated, the angels are still standing and ministering. Jesus has completed the work of accomplishing salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

Psalm 110 disagrees with you, again, Trev...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

So....you admit to using a translation that you disagree with.
What mode of logic are you operating under, Trev...?

This is not relevant to our discussion on Psalm 110:1. I will consider each verse as we come to it. Few of us have original language skills, but some who do have some skills come up with extreme comments, and dubious translations according to their previous bias.

Any serious scholar is already cognizant that 1 John 5.7 was not original to the text.

Then we both agree that the KJV should be used with caution.

This passage is not required, as there are thousands of other passages promoting a Triune God.
The only confusion is on your part.

Especially if you have a vivid imagination and claim that the right hand in Psalm 110:1 is speaking directly about the Holy Spirit.

The list does not require your approval in the first place, Trev...

I endorse the list as I am also using your list of quotations. But I am disagreeing with your application of the list. Your application is not inspired. Possibly you believe every comment that you make is Spirit-guided as one of my Pentecostal mates at work used to claim, even when he came out with preposterous statements.

Which means you will ignore these passages...

No, I am very conscious of these verses and this is why I separated them from the rest that can be easily recognised that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead. I put these two verses into a difficult, but not too hard basket. If we cannot agree on the easy ones, why discuss the difficult?

Psalm 110 disagrees with you, again, Trev...

Another portion of Hebrews that confirms what I stated concerning Psalm 110:1 is the following:
Hebrews 10:11–14 (KJV): 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
In Hebrews 1 the writer compared the activity of the angels to the completion of Jesus’ work of salvation. In the above the same writer compares the unceasing and incomplete activity of the Levitical priests and their sacrifices, to the competed one sacrifice of Jesus, and he also applies Psalm 110:1 to prove this. Again it is speaking of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God the Father, not the Holy Spirit as you claim.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Then we both agree that the KJV should be used with caution.

I don't use the KJV to begin with (unless it gets auto-linked).

The KJV uses the outdated Textus Receptus.

But...you already admitted that it was your preferred rendering....so...you are kinda stuck in what you just admitted to...

Especially if you have a vivid imagination and claim that the right hand in Psalm 110:1 is speaking directly about the Holy Spirit.

The Right Hand of God is ALWAYS the Holy Spirit in scripture.

Any serious student of scripture is already cognizant of this fact.

No, I am very conscious of these verses and this is why I separated them from the rest that can be easily recognised that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead.

Fact is, scripture states that each Person of The Trinity was involved in the raising of Jesus.

You can't just pick out the verses that you like.....that is what cults do.

I put these two verses into a difficult, but not too hard basket. If we cannot agree on the easy ones, why discuss the difficult?Another portion of Hebrews that confirms what I stated concerning Psalm 110:1 is the following:
Hebrews 10:11–14 (KJV): 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
In Hebrews 1 the writer compared the activity of the angels to the completion of Jesus’ work of salvation. In the above the same writer compares the unceasing and incomplete activity of the Levitical priests and their sacrifices, to the competed one sacrifice of Jesus, and he also applies Psalm 110:1 to prove this. Again it is speaking of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God the Father, not the Holy Spirit as you claim.

Kind regards
Trevor

There are numerous examples of The Holy Spirit being referred to as The Right Hand of God...

‘My Hand’, of the Most High, is The Holy Spirit (Acts 7.48 – 51)

‘My Hand’, of Jesus, is same as that of The Father (John 10.28 - 33)

The Hand of Yahweh is also the Spirit (Eze 3.14; 8.3; 37.1)

On and on it goes...

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

I don't use the KJV to begin with (unless it gets auto-linked).
The KJV uses the outdated Textus Receptus.
But...you already admitted that it was your preferred rendering....so...you are kinda stuck in what you just admitted to...

I have never examined the different NT source texts. I do not think that there is much difference in the OT sources for KJV and other modern translations, but you may have more knowledge of this, Dead Sea Scrolls etc. I do not use the KJV exclusively, but read a chapter in the morning from an Interlinear RV/KJV. At our meeting I mainly read from a NASB Study Bible, but usually also have my old KJV Bible open to the chapter that our speaker is expounding.

The Right Hand of God is ALWAYS the Holy Spirit in scripture.
Any serious student of scripture is already cognizant of this fact.

In Psalm 110:1 it is speaking about where Jesus is now seated, refer Hebrews 1:13-14, 10:11-14.

Fact is, scripture states that each Person of The Trinity was involved in the raising of Jesus.
You can't just pick out the verses that you like.....that is what cults do.

As there is no Trinity, only One God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then your claims are not valid. You are imposing your view of the Trinity on these verses. I did not pick out any verses, but selected ALL the verses that you included on your list.

There are numerous examples of The Holy Spirit being referred to as The Right Hand of God...
‘My Hand’, of the Most High, is The Holy Spirit (Acts 7.48 – 51)
‘My Hand’, of Jesus, is same as that of The Father (John 10.28 - 33)
The Hand of Yahweh is also the Spirit (Eze 3.14; 8.3; 37.1)
On and on it goes...

This does not explain Psalm 110:1.

Having covered the aspect of Jesus seated at the right hand of God, and that this is not referring to the Holy Spirit, another aspect where Psalm 110:1 is considered is the following which shows that Jesus is David's Lord, the Son of God, not God the Son:
Matthew 22:41–45 (KJV): 41 hile the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
We need to bow before the Son of God, giving glory to God the Father Philippians 2:9-11.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JudgeRightly]

As there is no Trinity,

At best, you're assuming your conclusion. That's called circular reasoning.

only One God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then your claims are not valid. You are imposing your view of the Trinity on these verses. I did not pick out any verses, but selected ALL the verses that you included on your list. This does not explain Psalm 110:1.

This is something people who deny Jesus is God have a problem with. The best they can do when arguing that He is not God is use verses that really could go either way, or don't really say He isn't God at all.

Having covered the aspect of Jesus seated at the right hand of God, and that this is not referring to the Holy Spirit, another aspect where Psalm 110:1 is considered is the following which shows that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son:

You haven't covered anything. Or, if you have, I must have missed it, and I've been paying attention, so that's not very likely.

Matthew 22:41–45 (KJV): 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Um, if that's not saying Jesus is God, I don't know what does.

We need to bow before the Son of God, giving glory to God the Father Philippians 2:9-11.

God says that bowing before anything/anyone other than God is idolatry. God is jealous, not willing to share His glory with any other.

Yet Jesus Himself said:

[JESUS]And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.[/JESUS] - John 17:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John17:5&version=NKJV

So is God the Father committing idolatry? NO! God the Father shared glory with the Son BEFORE THE WORLD WAS WHICH SHOWS THAT JESUS IS GOD THE SON.

Face it, Trevor, either Jesus is a liar, He's a lunatic, or He is LORD (YHWH).

There are no other options.

 

[JudgeRightly]

True God can not die JR. God did not Die, his Son did.

1) If Jesus was not God, Keypurr, how was Him giving His life able to reconcile ALL OF MANKIND, especially considering Psalm 49:7-9, 15?

2) What is death?

 

[JudgeRightly]

God punishes sinners, and those who know the truth and wilfully sin are very foolish to do so. God is love and he's full of mercy, but he won't be mocked!

The wages of sin is death, which is dead to God, which is separation from him.

And we are reconciled to God through Christ Jesus, by the ministry of reconciliation which is the gospel, reconciled by the word of God unto God who was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.

"God punishes sinners."

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, - Romans 3:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:23&version=NKJV



Good.



If a man (who rejects God's gift of salvation) dies and is then punished for his sin, his punishment being, as you said above, separation from God, would His punishment (separation from God) be sufficient for paying for his sins?

(In other words, is a man's separation from God enough to satisfy the demands of justice?)

It's interesting how how you BLATANTLY ignore the context of what the verse is saying.

And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. - 1 Corinthians 10:7-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians10:7-10&version=NKJV

First, who are "some of them"?
Second, what should we not do, as "some of them" did?
Third, in those four verses, did the sentence structure change at all?
Fourth, and this is more of a general question than it is about this passage, though it still applies to this verse, Against whom do people sin?



I'll let you read the context of the above before I answer that.



So then who was tempted in verse 9?

I'm still waiting for a response, Marhig.

 

[marhig]

I'm still waiting for a response, Marhig.

Sorry, but you've lost me. I haven't got a clue what you are going on about! Your just hopping from one thing to another!

What are you trying to say by saying some of them?

 

[marhig]

I'm still waiting for a response, Marhig.

JR I have a question for you, in post 2396, you have thanked apple 7 for saying this

Quote: "Just as The Son is The God of The Father."

How about showing me where in the Bible that it says that the son is the God of the father? Thanks

It's as non existent the word trinity or God the son!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings JudgeRightly,

At best, you're assuming your conclusion. That's called circular reasoning.

I was responding with equal assertion to Apple7’s statement that the Trinity raised Jesus.

This is something people who deny Jesus is God have a problem with. The best they can do when arguing that He is not God is use verses that really could go either way, or don't really say He isn't God at all.

If you are referring to the list, then this was Apple7’s list. We have been discussing Psalm 110:1 and I suggest that this is a key verse concerning this subject. I do not accept that this could go either way.

You haven't covered anything. Or, if you have, I must have missed it, and I've been paying attention, so that's not very likely.

If you believe that when Jesus sat down at the right hand of God, that this is somehow teaching the Holy Spirit, then this is your choice. I believe that it is teaching that Jesus, David’s Lord, the Son of God, sat down at the right hand of God. Possibly you missed it, but I suggest that Hebrews 1:13-14, 10:11-14 is speaking about Jesus sitting down in contrast to those standing, angels and Jewish priests, and does not talk about the Holy Spirit.

Um, if that's not saying Jesus is God, I don't know what does.

The question that Jesus asked is whose son is the Christ? He quotes Psalm 110:1 where David calls the Christ as his Lord.

God says that bowing before anything/anyone other than God is idolatry. God is jealous, not willing to share His glory with any other.

Have you considered Philippians 2:9-11? I have quoted this passage a number of times commencing from the start of my involvement in this thread.

Face it, Trevor, either Jesus is a liar, He's a lunatic, or He is LORD (YHWH).
There are no other options.

I will not yet consider John 17:5 as I would prefer to consider Psalm 110:1 at this stage. Yahweh is God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Psalm 110:1 distinguishes between Yahweh and David's Lord, the Son of God - hence a key verse.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JudgeRightly]

Sorry, but you've lost me. I haven't got a clue what you are going on about! Your just hopping from one thing to another!

What are you trying to say by saying some of them?

Try reading my post again and quoting that, instead of my post bump comment. You might find it easier to understand.

 

[JudgeRightly]

JR I have a question for you, in post 2396, you have thanked apple 7 for saying this

Quote: "Just as The Son is The God of The Father."

How about showing me where in the Bible that it says that the son is the God of the father? Thanks

It's as non existent the word trinity or God the son!

Please address my previous post first.