Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!
- Thread starter Apple7
- Start date
And this:
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him—For the redemption of their souls is costly, And it shall cease forever—That he should continue to live eternally, And not see the Pit. . . . But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive me. Selah - Psalm 49:7-9,15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm49:7-9,15&version=NKJV
If Jesus is anything but God, then His death could not save anyone.
musterion
Well-known member
1. Angels can't bleed or die (so far as we know). The Lamb had to bleed and die.
2. All men sin so no man's death can pay for his own sins, much less the sins of everyone else.
The Lamb of God had to be God in the flesh in order to be both man, as man, and as sinless as God.
I wonder if more people get more hung up on the HOW God did it rather than the idea THAT He might have done it.
So the only possible alternative they come up with is that Christ was some entirely new order of created being...human insofar as born of woman but independent of Adam, and filled with the Spirit of God...but absolutely not in fact God Himself in the flesh. That's more or less where lots of folks like to take it.
Thus when He said I AM, well, that was God speaking through Him, not His own words per se. In other words, Christ Jesus categorized as a bleeding humanoid puppet who God calls "Son" but who really is just a flesh interface with mankind, is what it amounts to.
2. All men sin so no man's death can pay for his own sins, much less the sins of everyone else.
The Lamb of God had to be God in the flesh in order to be both man, as man, and as sinless as God.
I wonder if more people get more hung up on the HOW God did it rather than the idea THAT He might have done it.
So the only possible alternative they come up with is that Christ was some entirely new order of created being...human insofar as born of woman but independent of Adam, and filled with the Spirit of God...but absolutely not in fact God Himself in the flesh. That's more or less where lots of folks like to take it.
Thus when He said I AM, well, that was God speaking through Him, not His own words per se. In other words, Christ Jesus categorized as a bleeding humanoid puppet who God calls "Son" but who really is just a flesh interface with mankind, is what it amounts to.
It certainly doesn't bring God any glory, doing that. Now, Him coming down in the flesh as a man, not controlling a puppet, but actually becoming a man, living a human life, and then sacrificing Himself to save His creation?
KingdomRose
New member
Sure. If you'll actually think about what I say. Jesus got all his power from God, Jehovah (YHWH). He was also Jehovah's Spokesman, coming to Earth on many instances to represent his Father. We believe that it was Jesus who accompanied the Israelites in the column of fire at night and cloud by day when they left Egypt. If he was said to be tempted, he used all of his power to do what Jehovah told him to do and not give in to the spoiled-brat Israelites who did nothing but complain. Of course Jehovah was always guiding Jesus in everything he did. Would Jesus give in to an impulse to destroy the whimpering nation, using his Father's power? All that would be like tempting God, Jehovah, because if power was used to destroy the Israelites, it would come from God. As it turned out, Jehovah made the way for them to save themselves by looking at the image of the serpent.
The same situation is brought to our attention when Jesus was tempted by the Devil after his baptism. When Satan told him to prove he was God's Son by jumping off the temple, Jesus said, "It is said, 'You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.'" (Luke 4:12) Was he referring to himself? No. He was quoting from Deuteronomy 6:16, that says exactly that, referring to Jehovah, YHWH, who is the one true God. How was Jehovah being put to the test? By giving Jesus the power to do whatever Jesus wants to do, and Jesus knew that he must follow Jehovah's instructions rather than do something foolish. If he decided to jump off the temple, would Jehovah give him the power to land on the ground safely, with perhaps the help of the angels? Jesus didn't want to put his Father "to the test."
Sadly, I have a feeling that you will scoff at this and continue on your way into the ditch with all the others. If you don't have an intelligent response to this, I will have to get to the point where I follow Jesus' instruction from his Father: "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (Matt.15:14, KJV)
Jesus said: "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak....The things I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)
In your own words, how does a person receive: forgiveness of their sins, inherit eternal life, and avoid being cast into the 'Lake of Fire' at the final judgement?
Apple7
New member
Keep going.
It was The Trinity that led the exodus, as thus...
Who delivered the people out of Egypt? (OT/NT):
• Yahweh Elohim (Exo 6.7, 20.2)
• Yahweh (Exo 3.4, 6.6, 3.7-8, 13, 26, 7.5, 12.17, 42, 51, 13.8, 9, 14, 16, ; Deut 1.27, 4.20, 5.6, 15, 6.12, 8.14, 9.7, Judges 2.12, 6.8, 13, 10.11; Joshua 24.6, 17; 1 Sam 8.8, 10.18, 12.6-8; 2 Sam 7.5 – 6; 1 Kings 8.9 – 16, 21, 9.9; 2 Kings 17.7, 36; Jer 2.6, 7.22, 11.4- 7, 16.14, 23.7, 31.31-32, 34.13, Psalm 81.10, 2 Chron 6.5, 7.22, Amos 2.10, 3.1, 9.7; Zech 10.10, Micah 6.4)
• Arm of Yahweh SON (Exo 6.6, 15.16, Deut 5.15, 2 Kings 17.37, Jer 32.21, Acts 13.17)
• Haelohim (all the Gods) (Exo 3.1; 1 Chron 17.21)
• Power of Yahweh SPIRIT (Deut 4.37, 2 Kings 17.37)
• Presence (Deut 4.37)
• My Hand SPIRIT (Exo 7.4-5, 13.3,9, 14, 16, Deut 5.15, 6.21, 9.26, Eze 20.6, Jer 32.21, Dan 9.15, Acts 7.35)
• Adonay Yahweh (1 Kings 8.53)
• Adoney Elohim (Dan 9.15)
• God (Acts 7.35)
• Lord (Heb 8.9)
• Debar Yahweh, The Word of God SON (Deut 5.5 – 6)
• The Word (Haggai 2.5)
• Spirit (Haggai 2.5)
• Malek Yahweh SON (Exo 3.4, Judges 2.1, Acts 7.35)
• Jesus SON (Jude 1.5)
• I AM (Exo 3.14)
• Elohe (Exo 3.6)
• Father (Deut 32.6)
I kind of think KR is avoiding my questions?
KR, here's the questions, again:
In your own words, how does a person receive: forgiveness of their sins, inherit eternal life, and avoid being cast into the 'Lake of Fire' at the final judgement?
In your own words, how does a person receive: forgiveness of their sins, inherit eternal life, and avoid being cast into the 'Lake of Fire' at the final judgement?
Apple7
New member
Temptation was set before Jesus THREE times, once each for each Person of The Trinity, and after each temptation, Jesus quotes OT Triune scripture.
It's a typical JW tactic. Ignore the questions they can't answer until they are buried, then claim they did answer them.
Oh, I see.
Apple7
New member
'We Believe'...?
Are you now a mouthpiece for the JW cult?
Why not just speak for what YOU, yourself, believe...?
Further...apparently you never considered this passage of scripture...
Exo 14.19
And the Malek HaElohim withdrew, the One going before the camp of Israel. And He went behind them. And the pillar of cloud withdrew from before them, and it stood behind them.
So....clearly there are TWO separate entities that were leading the exodus, as mentioned in just this one passage.
By sheer luck, you managed to identify one Person as The Son (albeit incorrectly assigning the pillar)....but, then you forgot all about Malek HaElohim....why?
marhig
Well-known member
How could Gods death save anyone? Why would God need to come here and be murdered to save us from his own wrath?
So your question is really this:
Why should God punish anyone at all? That's what your question amounts to.
Marhig, what is the penalty, the wages, of sin?
marhig
Well-known member
Firstly I don't know which version you are reading from, but the word him, isn't in the KJV, or many of the others, nor in the Greek, which version is that in?
I suppose you think that the serpents are natural serpents too?
It clearly says that God cannot be tempted in the Bible, Christ Jesus was tempted in all points as we are.
marhig
Well-known member
God punishes sinners, and those who know the truth and wilfully sin are very foolish to do so. God is love and he's full of mercy, but he won't be mocked!
The wages of sin is death, which is dead to God, which is separation from him.
And we are reconciled to God through Christ Jesus, by the ministry of reconciliation which is the gospel, reconciled by the word of God unto God who was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
"God punishes sinners."
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, - Romans 3:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:23&version=NKJV
Good.
If a man (who rejects God's gift of salvation) dies and is then punished for his sin, his punishment being, as you said above, separation from God, would His punishment (separation from God) be sufficient for paying for his sins?
(In other words, is a man's separation from God enough to satisfy the demands of justice?)
It's interesting how how you BLATANTLY ignore the context of what the verse is saying.
And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. - 1 Corinthians 10:7-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians10:7-10&version=NKJV
First, who are "some of them"?
Second, what should we not do, as "some of them" did?
Third, in those four verses, did the sentence structure change at all?
Fourth, and this is more of a general question than it is about this passage, though it still applies to this verse, Against whom do people sin?
I'll let you read the context of the above before I answer that.
So then who was tempted in verse 9?
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Apple7
New member
Its right here in the Greek...
μηδε εκπειραζωμεν τον χριστον καθως και τινες αυτων επειρασαν και υπο των οφεων απωλοντο
They are demons.
God never acts upon being tempted.
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