Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

[wholearmor]

WA:
Unless you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, speed typing is an option for you. If you are physically or mentally handicapped in some way, I'm sorry and withdraw my criticism.

Mark Tindall:
Ad hominem attack. Attack the ideas not the person. Otherwise bye - bye. Do you understand?

WA:
You need to seriously lighten up, dude. My statement was not an attack. I'm simply saying that unless you have a mental or physical handicap that would prevent you from typing speedily and accurately, that you can learn to type that way. It was a simple statement of fact, not an attack.

 

[Mark Tindall]

Mark.... public school is a breeding ground (pun intended) of teenage pregnancy, drugs, sexual abuse, poor social habits, suicide and death.

Or have you not been paying attention to what is going on around you?

*****************

How do I insert your comments easily??? Help!

Public school is a reflection of the society that everyone lives in. Are you saying that public school causes these problems? I disagree. The majority of moral and ethical training a child receives is from the home ...and public school teachers cannot change it to a great degree. That is why I am against the isoltaionist ague ments put forward by homeschoolers. (Returning to the subject matter) The same arguments are put forward by Christian Schools. It is merely a fear of modernity. A reaction to something else is not a positve argument for an item. The 'mummy (mommy in USA?) bubble' should be dispensed with.

 

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Public school is a reflection of the society that everyone lives in.

Exactly! You just made the BEST argument for homeschooling I've seen lately!

 

[ebenz47037]

Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Okay, Mark. I'll take this one topic at a time. All right?

- the erroneous notion that anyone can educate a child

I believe that anyone can teach what he or she does to someone else. Personality is going to come into this sometimes. So, just because you can teach your thing to Joe Blow doesn't mean that you can teach it to John Doe. There may be a difference in learning styles or just a personality clash between you and John Doe that makes it impossible for you to educate him at all.

- the concern over fundamentalist / conservative theological opinions being dominant in educational practice

That again is a matter that doesn't apply to everyone who chooses to homeschool. I happen to be a conservative, fundamentalist Christian. But, I don't expect my daughter to just accept what I teach her about relion or politics blindly. I make her investigate.

- indoctrination rather than education

The definition of indoctrination is:

1. To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.

2. To imbue with a partisan or ideological point of view: a generation of children who had been indoctrinated against the values of their parents.

So, if you go by the definition of the word, anyone who is an educator somehow indoctrinates his or her students. I have never met a teacher in public or private schools or a homeschooling parent who doesn't allow his or her believes to somehow come into what their teaching.

- faulty premises in philosophy of education

Explain what you mean by this to me, please.

- poor socialisation

The homeschooled children I've met are far better socialized than the public schooled children I've met. Socializing with one's on age group for 6 to 8 hours a day does not reflect real life. And, that 's what public and private schooled students do. Homeschooled children, on the other hand, spend time with several age groups. They tend (from what I've seen) to respect authority more than non-homeschooled children.

- no accountability
- lack of teaching supervsion

I decided to tackle these two together. Just because I choose not to be accountable to the public schools doesn't mean I never have been, Mark. I used to teach my daughter for a charter school. I have also taught Spanish in a private school. So, I do know how to teach.

I've been teaching my daughter for seven years now (not counting before she actually attended private school for two years and public school for 2 months).

I follow the state law for homeschooling in my state. Right now, that law is that I teach for 180 days per year and keep attendance. I do keep records of my daughter's grades for myself on cdrom. Those will come in handy later when/if she decides to go to college. My daughter keeps about a low A/high B gpa.

Why do you assume that only "real" educators can teach children?

I'll do more later. Don't want to clog up the server.

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Knight
Mark.... public school is a breeding ground (pun intended) of teenage pregnancy, drugs, sexual abuse, poor social habits, suicide and death.

Or have you not been paying attention to what is going on around you?

Knight, Mark is in Australia. He hasn't seen the public schools in our country. I'm guessing that public schools in Australia are not battle fields like the ones here are.

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
How do I insert your comments easily??? Help!

Look at the lower right-hand (your right) corner of the message you're wanting to reply to. You'll see the word "quote." Click on it and the message you want to quote will come up on a reply screen.

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Public school is a reflection of the society that everyone lives in. Are you saying that public school causes these problems? I disagree. The majority of moral and ethical training a child receives is from the home ...and public school teachers cannot change it to a great degree. That is why I am against the isoltaionist ague ments put forward by homeschoolers. (Returning to the subject matter) The same arguments are put forward by Christian Schools. It is merely a fear of modernity. A reaction to something else is not a positve argument for an item. The 'mummy (mommy in USA?) bubble' should be dispensed with.

Actually, you're wrong about the attitudes coming only from the home. In the U.S., public schools are a battle field. Good teachers are few and far between. And, those good teachers tend to burn out early in their careers because it is so hard to find students who haven't been affected negatively by the public school experiences they've already had.

It started going down-hill in this country when the government started telling us how to raise our children. In some states, parents are not allowed to discipline their children at all. Therefore, the children learn that they can do whatever they want and will get away with it. Personally, I respect parents that teach their children that there are consequences for their choices in life more than I respect parents who seem to think that the only way a child can really "learn anything is to have total freedom to do as he/she wants."

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Mark when you get time you can check out the FAQ.

There is great info and instructions on posting here at TOL.

Thanks for your participation!

 

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
It started going down-hill in this country when the government started telling us how to raise our children.

Take note of the black community in many cases. They're quality of life started taking a turn for the worse as soon as they started allowing the government to be the daddy of their families.

 

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Look at the lower right-hand (your right) corner of the message you're wanting to reply to. You'll see the word "quote." Click on it and the message you want to quote will come up on a reply screen.

Thanks! That helps!!! Still trying to get used to this format.

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Thanks! That helps!!! Still trying to get used to this format.

That's all right. If you need more help, feel free to ask.

 

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by wholearmor
Exactly! You just made the BEST argument for homeschooling I've seen lately!

We live a Western society that is both post-Christian and post-modernist. One cannot shield a child from that fact. Critically reflect on the following:

From John Milton's "Areopagitica" (1644) [Appleton- Century Crofts; New York:1951] p. 25 "Banish all objects of lust, shut up all youth into the severest discipline that can be exercised in any hermitage, ye cannot make them chaste that came not thither so ..."

Isolation from the world is not a cure!

 

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Knight, Mark is in Australia. He hasn't seen the public schools in our country. I'm guessing that public schools in Australia are not battle fields like the ones here are.

Correct ...I'm an Aussie!

Public schools are unconcerned about homeschooling in Australia.

My guess is that Christians in the USA have seen that Christian Schools are expensive ....and they will not get their way with professional educators in that system any more than a professional educator in a public school .... and have opted for total control.

I do not think homeschooling is a good option for the majority of people. It works best for a small minority who have been professional educators and whose child / children require intensive intervention as a result of some problem.

 

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by wholearmor
Take note of the black community in many cases. They're quality of life started taking a turn for the worse as soon as they started allowing the government to be the daddy of their families.

Take note also that Christian Schools rapidly rose when public schools desegregated and people of other other races were allowed to mix with whites. Unfortunately most Christians fear change and the "other". This has motivated many of the fads in Christian education which are mere reactions rather than well thought out innovations.

 

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by Knight
Mark when you get time you can check out the FAQ.

There is great info and instructions on posting here at TOL.

Thanks for your participation!

Thanks again! I have book marked the FAQ to read later.

So many posts and so little time to answer! Most have raised good points that I do want to address ...probably in bits and pieces as they appear over the next few days.


Think I'll stick with this topic for a while till I get used to things. I sense a lot of fear and misunderstanding on both sides of the public school vs homeschool debate.

 

[Mark Tindall]

Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Okay, Mark. I'll take this one topic at a time. All right?


I believe that anyone can teach what he or she does to someone else.

I will likewise repond in bits and pieces. You bring up some points that do need discussion in this area.

I prefer the term educate to teach because this shows the difference between parenting and pedagogy.

I start off with a few questions that I have posted elsewhere (where I am called a troll and repeatedly abused by the Christian homeschoolers for daring to question their poor educational practice!)

What do you think the term "educate" means? What is a "good education"?

Also realise that the term "anyone" means any person at all ... e.g. a subintelligent housewife with multiple learning difficulties or a vegetative accident victim in an intensive care ward of a hospital. Only SOME people are able to educate a child. What people might that be? What skills and knowledge must they possess? What is required to educate a child? Is education really only an extension of mummy parenting preschool kids? What competencies must a person have in order to be able to educate another? Shouldn't these competencies be pre-assessed as they are with professional educators in public schools?

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
Correct ...I'm an Aussie!

Public schools are unconcerned about homeschooling in Australia.

My guess is that Christians in the USA have seen that Christian Schools are expensive ....and they will not get their way with professional educators in that system any more than a professional educator in a public school .... and have opted for total control.

I do not think homeschooling is a good option for the majority of people. It works best for a small minority who have been professional educators and whose child / children require intensive intervention as a result of some problem.

LOL! Mark, I've dealt with "professional" educators in both the public and private sector when it comes to my daughter's education. Both have shot me down as far as my daughter's education is concerned. All of her teachers (prior to myself) said that there was no excuse for a child to be that far ahead of her peers. Her kindergarten teacher (Christian school) wanted to hold her back a year because she was shy around strangers. What five year old isn't? Her first grade teacher (also Christian school) kept telling me that she was disrupting the class during the day. So, I went and sat in on the classroom. I figured out why my daughter disrupted the class (even though she didn't do it while I was there). The teacher would not call on my daughter at all to read aloud or to do problems on the chalkboard or to answer questions. She called on several children who could barely read or didn't know how to do the problems she wanted done on the board or who didn't know the answers to her questions. My daughter knew the answers and wanted to show her teacher that she did. When I got my daughter's progress report, the teacher had written that my daughter refused to participate in class. It didn't look that way to me. And, I talked to this teacher everyday when I picked my daughter up from school. She didn't tell me any of this until one week before the school year ended. My daughter's second grade teacher (public school) told me that my daughter was just then supposed to be starting to learn to read. But, my daughter was reading short paperbacks for fun as opposed to fighting over learning to read like her classmates. So, after talking to the teacher and the principal, my husband and I decided to pull her out of the public school and homeschool her.

No. I don't have a teaching certificate. But, why does a piece of paper make someone a better teacher than I am? It doesn't. A Christian school realized that and asked me to teach their Spanish class two years ago.

I have been a widow for almost five years, now. I put my daughter back in public school for the first half of the 1999-2000 school year. When I did, I told the principal that she was a very intelligent child and if she got bored, she would refuse to do the work. He said that they had no problem with that and that they would just have to challenge her mentally. I had weekly meetings with her teacher to make sure things went smoothly. But, when the semester ended and I got her report card, my daughter had Cs, Ds, and Fs in every subject. I asked her teacher how this could be happening since she never related the problem to me. Her teacher said that most of it had to do with the fact that when bored because the work was too easy, my daughter tended to go ahead in the books instead of doing what was assigned. I had warned the principal of this at the beginning of the school year. The teacher told me that he had told her this. My daughter's report card should have reflected her true work and not was expected of her age group/grade. I pulled her back out and homeschooled her again.

Mark, my daughter has chosen homeschooling ever since that year because (as she puts it) I don't call her stupid like her fourth grade teacher did.

I have had a lot of bad experiences with my daughter and public and private schools. I won't trust either of them again with my daughter's education. I pray that she chooses to go to college in five years, but that will be her choice. I have no doubt with the way I keep records and the way my daughter tests that she will be welcomed in any college that she wishes to attend.

 

[ebenz47037]

Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Re: Re: Re: Christian Teacher thoughts on homeschooling

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
I will likewise repond in bits and pieces. You bring up some points that do need discussion in this area.

I prefer the term educate to teach because this shows the difference between parenting and pedagogy.

I start off with a few questions that I have posted elsewhere (where I am called a troll and repeatedly abused by the Christian homeschoolers for daring to question their poor educational practice!)

What do you think the term "educate" means? What is a "good education"?

Also realise that the term "anyone" means any person at all ... e.g. a subintelligent housewife with multiple learning difficulties or a vegetative accident victim in an intensive care ward of a hospital. Only SOME people are able to educate a child. What people might that be? What skills and knowledge must they possess? What is required to educate a child? Is education really only an extension of mummy parenting preschool kids? What competencies must a person have in order to be able to educate another?

When I say "educate" or "teach," I pretty much mean the same thing. To teach (or educate) someone, you are training them with new skills, behaviours, etc. A good education is one that produces productive citizens who do not need to live on the public dole if they're healthy and able.

When I say "anyone can teach someone else to do what they do," I'm also talking about healthy and able-bodied people.

A "subintelligent housewife (I guess I would fall into that category for you, Mark.)" might be able to educate her children, if she realizes the different learning styles that are required. I am dyslexic, Mark. I was diagnosed when I was in the sixth grade. Yet, I have no problem reading or teaching my child.

To educate children in general (I don't like this phrase because I don't believe in generalized education), a person must be patient enough to handle the everyday difficulties that come with these children. It would be nice, but it's not necessary, for someone to have a college degree in education or the subject they're planning to teach. A person does not need to have a large knowledge of psychology to teach either. To teach, a person should be able to express their thoughts and ideas verbally (aloud). They have to know how to read (that's a given).

Education is more than an extension of "mummy parenting pre school kids." You've seen my examples of how the public and Christian schools here have reacted to my daughter. I don't want my daughter to think that the only way people will like her is if she doesn't show that she's as smart or smarter than some people. I was taught that. It almost ruined me. I was like my daughter when I was a child. I was bored to tears in the public school system. Up until I was in the fourth grade, they had advanced classes for me. After that, I was expected to stay just even with the rest of the class. I rarely did the seat work because I was so bored. I read encyclopaedias for fun. I never failed a test. I breezed through the rest of elementary, junior high, and high school with flying colors. I would have gone on to college, but I didn't want my parents to have to pay for it. So, I chose not to go. My mistake. I have a savings account set up for my daughter's college education, if she chooses to go.

Shouldn't these competencies be pre-assessed as they are with professional educators in public schools?

Now, why would you think I would say yes to this question after I've explained my story and my daughter's story? There's no way that I would trust the people who assess the competencies of the "professional" educators in public schools. Why should I? If they're letting "professional" educators like the ones I've had to deal with work in the schools with children, why should I trust their judgement at all?

 

[Mark Tindall]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
LOL! Mark, I've dealt with "professional" educators in both the public and private sector when it comes to my daughter's education. Both have shot me down as far as my daughter's education is concerned. All of her teachers (prior to myself) said that there was no excuse for a child to be that far ahead of her peers.

G'day again! We've talked about some of this elsewhere but it is good to go over main points for others reading the thread. Homeschooling CAN be a good choice to make. It can also be a bad choice. There are many factors involved.

Yes, there are good and bad in all systems. There is no reason to stop a student from going as far ahead as they are capable of and of being extended to their full ability. Any school system has the capability to do so. If you don't succeed with your child's teacher then work your way up the chain of command ... or put your grievance straight to the top of the hierarchy if it is something that is VERY serious. However make sure that your child IS gifted and it is not just your opinion. Have your child tested by a qualified educational psychologist. These are attached to public schools in Australia but I am not certain of their availability elsewhere.

Do you need a piece of paper to be a good educator? I don't think so. Jesus and Socrates are examples of great teachers who did not have a teaching degree ... BUT you DO need the requisite competencies. From my dealings with homeschoolers the requisite competencies are not always there. That is a problem.

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Mark Tindall
G'day again! We've talked about some of this elsewhere but it is good to go over main points for others reading the thread. Homeschooling CAN be a good choice to make. It can also be a bad choice. There are many factors involved.

Yes, there are good and bad in all systems. There is no reason to stop a student from going as far ahead as they are capable of and of being extended to their full ability. Any school system has the capability to do so. If you don't succeed with your child's teacher then work your way up the chain of command ... or put your grievance straight to the top of the hierarchy if it is something that is VERY serious. However make sure that your child IS gifted and it is not just your opinion. Have your child tested by a qualified educational psychologist. These are attached to public schools in Australia but I am not certain of their availability elsewhere.

Do you need a piece of paper to be a good educator? I don't think so. Jesus and Socrates are examples of great teachers who did not have a teaching degree ... BUT you DO need the requisite competencies. From my dealings with homeschoolers the requisite competencies are not always there. That is a problem.

I have never had my daughter tested. In the public schools that she attended, whenever I would suggest that, the idea would be shot down ("We don't believe in those tests anymore, Mrs. Benz!" or "Your child's too young to be considered 'gifted', Mrs. Benz!"...etc...). I cannot afford to pay for the testing myself. But, as it stands right now, if we ever get to the point where I cannot teach her what she wants/needs to learn, I will find someone who can. It doesn't matter whether I teach it or not. It does matter that she learns what she needs/wants to learn.

You've said before that the homeschoolers you've dealt with don't have the requisite competencies on the newsgroup. Yet, I've never seen you state what the requisite competencies are. Care to shed some light on that matter for me?