Christian Azazel Atonement Theory

[Crucible]

I've always understood 'Azazel' as insidious, if not by an arbitrary standard.

Perhaps a counterpart of 'Azrael', the angel of death.

I recall 'Azazel' popping up specifically in Islamic lore- Im'll look further into this

 

[Crucible]

Azazel pops up in the book of Enoch, which I didn't even know the Muslims accepted as Canon :freak:
[MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION], you must have meant Azrael, or perhaps some other angel- because Azazel is insidious.

EDIT: This is a difficult thread to follow, and I mistook you for defending Azazel

:chuckle:

Good job brother, I think we are a rare breed on this site who actually enjoys angel/demonology.

 

[daqq]

Azazel pops up in the book of Enoch, which I didn't even know the Muslims accepted as Canon :freak:
@daqq, you must have meant Azrael, or perhaps some other angel- because Azazel is insidious.

EDIT: This is a difficult thread to follow, and I mistook you for defending Azazel

:chuckle:

Good job brother, I think we are a rare breed on this site who actually enjoys angel/demonology.

Interesting, look here: Enoch and the Book of Giants. Yes, your edit is correct.

 

[Crucible]

Interesting, look here: Enoch and the Book of Giants. Yes, your edit is correct.

Enoch is the most controversial apocacrypha.

I don't discount it, to be honest. I just don't have it canonized in my mind either.

It's one of those things that one can speak against, but then also can't speak against.
There are so many hidden connections in that book, which is what trips me out lain:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Enoch is the most controversial apocacrypha.

I don't discount it, to be honest. I just don't have it canonized in my mind either.

It's one of those things that one can speak against, but then also can't speak against.
There are so many hidden connections in that book, which is what trips me out lain:

There are things in the book of Enoch which are only the superstitions of unbelieving Jews.

Genuine things can be discerned by Godly men with the Lords help.

LA

 

[RBBI]

John 10:30 KJV -

You'd have to first understand oneness. One plus one = 1, but 2 in union/agreement make up that one, which is why the comparison was made between Him and His Father, and Him and His body. We're not Him, but we are one with Him. One is the Spirit Seed Son (for all seeds bear fruit after their OWN KIND and His kind is the Father, who is a SPIRIT).

We were also one with Him from the foundation of the world, and that STILL means one plus one = one, in the way a man and his wife are one, yet two individuals. He gives reference points to figure it out, but it was the best interest of the apostate church do the math one plus one IS one, not two in union. Peace

 

[RBBI]

Goats can only do goat stuff, it's in their design parameters.

So that's seriously all you see in that, is a goat "doing goat stuff"? LOL Do yourself a favor; look up acronym PARDES. Peace

 

[clefty]

He does not go to "the grave" but is sent away into the dry-arid desert places, (seeking rest). And finding no rest, he returns to the house-body-temple from which he came out, and finds it swept and garnished. He goes out into the world because he is the spirit of the world.

1 John 2:18-20 ASV
18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.
20 And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Who knows all things? The one who has the anointing.
Who and what is the anointing? The Testimony of Yeshua is the New Covenant Spirit.

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

What or who is "the prince of the power of the air" that you formerly served if you are now in the faith? And if you formerly served such a one then where did he go? Was he cast forth out of you when you first believed? Paul seems to make that fairly apparent. And if the prince of the power of the air went forth from your house-body-temple what does the Master say about that in the above Luke passage? No exceptions to the rule if you are truly his disciple.

Daniel 8:5
5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: [power of the air] and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Daniel 8:21
21 And the shaggy he-goat [sa`iyr tsaphiyr] is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Each in his or her own appointed times: your hour of trial, (1 John 2:18).
So Yeshua says, "Sin no more, lest something more evil come unto you", (John 5:14, #3).

Moreover, I say, if most do not even know that an unclean spirit went out of them when they first believed, or what that actually means in theologic terms, (doctrines), how shall they know when "the prince of the power of the air" returns? Are we not commanded to Watch! in Mark 13:37?

There sure is a lot of (fiery) hot air around here . . . :chuckle:

The goat is driven from the camp...and not to its death...and doing goat things is herding...that goat will come back duh...and next morning the goat will be there again...doing goat stuff...to be driven away again...and so the metaphor breaks away as fractals do...not because it ends but interest in it does

Finally some interpret it as to kill the goat...that "solves" it...

But as a metaphor it really is a clever way to better understand sin...as doing what goats do...survive

 

[RBBI]

The Day of atonement is a fast day.

The Azazel took sins to an uninhabited place. The ultimate uninhabited place is the grave.

It was a fast until evening day. Peace

 

[clefty]

It was a fast until evening day. Peace

The instruction is to afflict our souls...most include fasting as the way to do that...

The day of atonement began the evening before...which is of interest as why the redundancy if all days began the evening before?

 

[clefty]

The problem that I find with your perspective here is that it hinges on Azazel being a personal pronoun (though I think you meant proper noun). If you look at the grammar within the text you will find that Azazel is only used only once as a proper noun. Furthermore, it also shows a lack of fundamental understanding in how lots were made. Those who have translated many of the modern versions have also missed this as well. I have taken the time to correct the mistakes in the box below.

(Leviticus 16:8-10) And Aaron will cast lots upon the two goats; one lot: Eternal One, and the other lot: Scapegoat. (9) And Aaron will bring the goat upon which the Eternal One's lot fell, and offer him as a sin offering. (10) But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, will be presented alive before the Eternal One, to make an atonement with him, to let him go as a scapegoat into the wilderness.

In Hebrew culture, lots were often used to determine many things. A lot was usually a piece of wood, stone, or metal (which is actually the meaning of the Hebrew word translated as "lot") that would have an inscription carved into them to identify what the lot represented. In this case, verse 8 tells us the inscription that was carved into each lot. One would have "Eternal One" carved into it and the other would have "Scapegoat (Azazel)" carved into it. Consequently, this is the only time that the word "scapegoat (azazel)" is used as a proper noun, as it identifies the lot in verse 8, not the goat. In verses 9 and 10 we have to look carefully at the word order to determine the context in which "scapegoat (azazel)" is being used. Notice that in verse 9 it says, "The goat upon which the Eternal One's lot fell," whereas in verse 10 it says, "But the goat, upon which the lot fell." This tells the reader that the word "scapegoat" that follows is no longer being used as a proper noun. From that we know that it should be, "But the goat upon which the lot fell to be a scapegoat, will be presented alive before the Eternal One, to let him go as a scapegoat into the wilderness." Furthermore, once we take a look at the complete scope of the two goats, we can see that the whole thing together typifies Jesus the Messiah and his death and resurrection. This can be clearly seen by the events that took place after the resurrection of Jesus.

Notice in John 20:17 that Jesus tells Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. In other words, he was not yet presented alive before the Eternal one, to be let go as a scapegoat into the wilderness (back into the physical realm); besides that, he also needed to place his own blood on the mercy seat in Heaven. Also note that Jesus tells Mary to say to his disciples that he has ascended to the Father, which he would do sometime within the 8 days between his conversation with Mary and showing up in the room to Thomas. We know that it was done within that time because it was then that Jesus told Thomas to touch his wounds (John 20:27).


First, you cannot employ the contextual meaning of a word in one passage to be the same meaning of the same word in a different context. If that was the case, then both goats that the lots were cast upon would really be demons by that logic, and Esau would have been a demon man, because it is the same word that is used for "hairy."

Second, that word is only translated as devils twice, and both times it is in reference to idols. Remember, the Children of Israel came from Egypt where the worshiping and sacrificing to idols were common. Goats and calves were the most common idols made and worshiped in Egypt, and Israel has been known to worship them on more than one occasion...

Thanks for including the "game of chance" this whole scapegoat thingy is...

Interesting take on why Mary was not to cling to Him as He had not yet ascended...for me it was to present Himself as first fruits in the heavenly temple and validate His mission as successful...

The day after Passover Sabbath being the festival of first fruits...

(And for those who care yes another OT festival kept after the DBR which signed and sealed the new covenant...)

 

[jamie]

So that's seriously all you see in that, is a goat "doing goat stuff"? LOL Do yourself a favor; look up acronym PARDES. Peace

Goats can only do goat stuff, but what if we take a look at the two goats.

One of the goats was killed and its blood was used to reconcile the holy place, the tabernacle, and the altar. The other goat, though innocent of sin, bore the sins of the people to an uninhabited place.

Merriam-Webster defines scapegoat Like this:

Definition of scapegoat
1
a goat upon whose head are symbolically placed the sins of the people after which he is sent into the wilderness in the biblical ceremony for Yom Kippur

2
(a) one that bears the blame for others
(b) one that is the object of irrational hostility​

The Lamb was symbolized by a goat.

 

[Veritas veritate]

for me it was to present Himself as first fruits in the heavenly temple and validate His mission as successful...

The day after Passover Sabbath being the festival of first fruits...

(And for those who care yes another OT festival kept after the DBR which signed and sealed the new covenant...)

That is also another reason... You would be surprised at the complexity of all that was fulfilled. Something else interesting about the time between talking to Mary and appearing to the disciples is that the 8 days also coincided with the 8 day ritual of circumcision of a newborn with Jesus being firstborn of many brothers (spiritually).


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[daqq]

The goat is driven from the camp...and not to its death...and doing goat things is herding...that goat will come back duh...and next morning the goat will be there again...doing goat stuff...to be driven away again...and so the metaphor breaks away as fractals do...not because it ends but interest in it does

Finally some interpret it as to kill the goat...that "solves" it...

But as a metaphor it really is a clever way to better understand sin...as doing what goats do...survive

Notice the distinction which is made between the anthropos and the soul in the parable of the good ground of the wealthy man which brought forth plentifully. The anthropos "says to his soul", which means that they are not the same entities; the anthropos-manfaced also is not likened to one who dies but rather gets cast out to no-mans land when his soul, (which is likened to his possession), is demanded of him. So his soul dies and he is pictured as essentially being left without an abode. Thus the anthropon-manfaced are allegorized in the likeness of spirit, just as are the Pharisees, Sadducees, Herod, and so on, because all of these concern doctrines which travel by way of speaking, preaching, hearing, and thus by "the power of the air", (and they have a prince; the prince of the power of the air and spirit of the world).

Yeshua Says, Beware of the anthropon, for he knew what is in the anthropon `Az-paniym fierce countenance, (Deut 28:50, Dan 8:23, John 2:24-25), for they will deliver you up to their sanhedrins, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; and you shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the heathen, (Matt 10:17-18). But when they deliver you up to rulers and authorities, take no thought of how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you, (Matt 10:19-20, Luke 12:11), and because the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what you should say, (Luke 12:12). And one of the company says to him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me! And Yeshua says to him, Anthrope! who made me judge or divider over you? (Part yourself asunder, O man!) And Yeshua says to them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for the life of a man does not consist in the abundance of things in hand which he possesses.

And he speaks a parable unto them, Yeshua Says, The ground of a certain wealthy anthropos-manfaced brought forth plentifully; and he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do? for I have no space where to gather up my fruits? And he says, This will I do; I will raze my granaries, and greater shall I build, and there will I gather all my produce and my goodness. And I will say to my own soul, O Soul, you have much goodness laid up for many years; take your ease: eat, drink, and be merry! But Elohim says to him, Aphron! this night your soul they shall demand of you! And what you have prepared; to whom shall it fall?

So the anthropos is not the soul. Some anthropon manfaced countenances are foolish and others are outright evil. Beware what anthropon you let be "married" to your soul; for it is the last hour, and the whole habitable world lies in wickedness. Bind up the Testimony and seal the Torah among my talmidim, says the Most High, (Isa 8:16). And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their Elohim? on behalf of the living should they seek the dead? To the Torah and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them, (Isa 8:19-20). Whosoever transgresses, and abides not in the doctrine of Messiah, the same has not Elohim. The one who abides in the doctrine of Messiah; the same has both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house! (and again, the man is the house), neither bid him "farewell" or a prosperous journey in his way: for the one who bids him good-speed is partaker in his evil deeds, (2John 1:9-11).

Yeshua Says, The enemies of a man shall be those of his own household: the one loving father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and the one loving son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and the one not taking up his stake and following after me is not worthy of me; the one finding his own soul shall destroy her, and the one tearing down his own soul for my sake shall find her!

Yeshua Says, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the P'rushim and Herod, (Mark 8:15).
Yeshua Says, Take heed, beware the leaven of the P'rushim and Tzaddukim, (Matt 16:6).

For the kingdom of the heavens is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, until the whole lump was leavened, (Matt 13:33), and as haNavi Yirmeyahu says in new covenant language, Upon this I awakened, and beheld, and my sleep was sweet unto me. Behold, the days come, says YHWH, that I will sow the house of Yisrael and the house of Yhudah with the seed of man, (anthropon-manfaced), and with the seed of beast, (Pro 30:11-13, Hos 13:7-11, Dan 7:1-8, Matt 12:39-45, Luke 11:20-32, Rev 13:1-11). And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, says YHWH. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape; the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eats the sour grape, his own teeth shall be set on edge! Behold, the days come, says YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Yisrael, and with the house of Yhudah, (Jer 31:26-31). Sin crouches at the door, (of your house), and his desire is unto you, and you shall rule over him.

 

[daqq]

That is also another reason... You would be surprised at the complexity of all that was fulfilled. Something else interesting about the time between talking to Mary and appearing to the disciples is that the 8 days also coincided with the 8 day ritual of circumcision of a newborn with Jesus being firstborn of many brothers (spiritually).


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Those eight days are the seven days of consecrations, (Exo 29:35, Lev 8:33, 35), plus the final eighth day of the consecrations of the kohanim, (Lev 9:1). That is the reason why the disciples-apostles were "shut up" in the upper room with the door having been locked. For "the fear" of the Yhudim does not just mean they were "afraid of the Yhudim" but can also be understood more like "the reverential-fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom", that kind of reverencial fear, which is "the fear" of the Yhudim. The apostles are thus the commencement of the royal priesthood of which Peter speaks when he quotes from Exo 19:5-6 LXX in 1Pet 2:9.

 

[Veritas veritate]

Those eight days are the seven days of consecrations, (Exo 29:35, Lev 8:33, 35), plus the final eighth day of the consecrations of the kohanim, (Lev 9:1). That is the reason why the disciples-apostles were "shut up" in the upper room with the door having been locked. For "the fear" of the Yhudim does not just mean they were "afraid of the Yhudim" but can also be understood more like "the reverential-fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom", that kind of reverencial fear, which is "the fear" of the Yhudim. The apostles are thus the commencement of the royal priesthood of which Peter speaks when he quotes from Exo 19:5-6 LXX in 1Pet 2:9.

Indeed, as I have said, there is a great complexity to all that was fulfilled there.

 

[daqq]

Indeed, as I have said, there is a great complexity to all that was fulfilled there.

Yeah, and as you suggested, "a circumcision", but in the first case for Ahron, (Lev 9:1, Lev 10:1).
Two "parts" breathed their last, (Nadab and Abihu), the eighth day, (Zec 13:7-9, Matt 26:31).

 

[Veritas veritate]

Yeah, and as you suggested, "a circumcision", but in the first case for Ahron, (Lev 9:1, Lev 10:1).
Two "parts" breathed their last, (Nadab and Abihu), the eighth day, (Zec 13:7-9, Matt 26:31).

And to further add to the complexity, it all "happens" to be during a rare year when Shmita and Jubilee overlap...


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[daqq]

For the primary refutations in this thread see the following:

Refutation #1 (Reply #17)
Refutation #2 (Reply #20)
Refutation #3 (Reply #24)

Refutation number four: the claim concerning Isaiah 9:6.

@daqq's Method's of Deceit (Updated)
(1) Boiling Scripture down to root language and using possible word definitions to distort scriptural integrity.
- this also makes @daqq look like a theological Ace. Unfortunately... It's just scriptural smoke, mirrors and scriptural distortion and twisting.
Example: Daqq tampering with Isaiah 9:6 Via Septuagint (Greek Translation)
The Joke? The Great Isaiah Scroll is one of the oldest... full... Hebrew Scrolls in existence. It dates to 125 BCE and all 66 chapters of Isaiah are intact... Um... Rotfl... Trinity Tampering? You're funny @daqq
The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsaa) is one of the original seven Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in Qumran in 1947. It is the largest (734 cm) and best preserved of all the biblical scrolls, and the only one that is almost complete. The 54 columns contain all 66 chapters of the Hebrew version of the biblical Book of Isaiah. Dating from ca. 125 BCE, it is also one of the oldest of the Dead Sea Scrolls, some one thousand years older than the oldest manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible known to us before the scrolls' discovery.
The Great Isaiah Scroll Translated... at verse 6 of Chapter 9
23. with burning consuming fire. (5) Because a child shall be born to us and a son is given to us and the government shall be upon
24. his shoulders and he shall be called wonderful, counsellor, mighty God, everlasting father the prince of peace. (6) Of the increase
25. of his government [&waw&} and his peace there shall be no end. upon the throne of David and over his kingdom to order it and to establish it

Isaiah 9:6
For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace,
(2) Long, Spiritual Allegory that is partially accurate, but is infused with commentary from Daqq's doctrinal source.
- I know this is going to sound extreme, but Daqq is listening to a very dark voice and he believes that it is indeed "Godly"... but...
Matthew 6:22-24
(3) Making False Theological Claims about others
(4) Whining
(5) Nit picking a term to hide theological error (Gnat Straining)
(6) Playing Victim to avoid answering to scripture.
(7) Claiming He has rebutted someone, while fully leaving all posted scripture towards him... un-refuted by anything other than tactic 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or any combination of them... or all of them.
Prime example This is a link to a post where I directly addressed the myriad of scripture that @daqq had failed to address.
And Daqq... Tabbed browsing... Copy and paste... will work fine. What is your desire, other than to justify your self righteousness and Hatered for God that is manifested in your mocking of the virgin birth and Gods work of Atonment in the death of His Logos in Flesh, Burial and Resurrection in HIS true Logos TEMPLE?

From the very same thread which Evil posted and linked to, in the above recent post, where this was openly refuted and no doubt because of it the same call out thread with my name in the title was then closed so that I could no more respond to it, with the accusation that I was "walling up" his thread. But if anyone looks at the opening post in his call out thread the same will plainly see that the opening post is in itself nothing more than a wall of accusations.

"Congratulations Daqq, This Thread is just for you. (Exposing your Deceit)" Reply #2

Already answered you but, as usual, you completely ignored what was posted:

Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)>
@daqq ... @KingdomRose ... @meshak ... @marhig
What does this verse mean to you?
Isaiah 9:6 ?

It means the same thing it meant when I responded to it here:

All this explains what we read here about the Lord Jesus:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

Just because you read this in most translations does not make it true. While I still do not totally agree with the Young's Literal Bible Translation at least he was not afraid to render it for what it truly says in the most critical portion, and this is shown by how the same word form is rendered in many, many, other places:
Isaiah 9:6 YLT
6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power [הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה] is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name [וַיִּקְרָ֨א שְׁמ֜וֹ] Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

That is indeed what the text says, "HE CALLS HIS NAME", and this changes the whole meaning of what the Prophet is saying because the one who is on the neck or shoulder of the son who is given, (on his neck means, "his yoke"), is Ha-mSARah, that is, the Arche, the Empire, the Dominion, the Head, the Beginning. In other words the son that is given has Ha-mSARah on his neck or shoulder, (and his yoke is χρηστος-chestos-gracious just as he says), and HE CALLS HIS NAME the title or titles which follow in the passage, which are also not likely rendered correctly because of inaccurate vowel pointing in the Masorete Hebrew Text done by those who rejected the Messiah, (אביעד = "my father-progenitor of testimony" - "My Testimony Progenitor-Father", i.e. "the Progenitor of my Testimony", [and עד may even mean "witness" just as it is often rendered]).

Then someone else said:

There is going to be a King appointed by God to rule the earth---"the government will come to be on his shoulder," and there will be no end of peace. That King is Jesus Christ, "mighty god," NOT Almighty God. He is a powerful, important individual, and that is what "god" means. It doesn't say that he is the Most High God.

Notice that word is El, (El Gibbor, Mighty El).
And the same is used in Immanu·El, ("El is with us").
Also, VaYikra (Leviticus) - "And He called"

Thus:

Isaiah 9:6
9:6 כִּי־ ki- [For] יֶ֣לֶד yeled [a child] יֻלַּד־ yulad- [is born] לָ֗נוּ la·nu [unto us] בֵּ֚ן ben [a son] נִתַּן־ nitan- [is given] לָ֔נוּ la·nu [unto us] וַתְּהִ֥י va·tehi [and will rest] הַמִּשְׂרָ֖ה ha·misrah [the princely empire power] עַל־ 'al- [upon] שִׁכְמ֑וֹ shikm·ow [his neck-shoulder] וַיִּקְרָ֨א va·yikra [and he shall call] שְׁמ֜וֹ shem·ow [his name] פֶּ֠לֶא Phele [too wonderful] יוֹעֵץ֙ yo'etz [counsel-counselor] אֵ֣ל 'el [El] גִּבּ֔וֹר gibbor [Mighty] אֲבִיעַ֖ד 'avi'ad [my Father-Progenitor · Testimony-Witness-Everlasting] שַׂר־ sar- [Prince] שָׁלֽוֹם׃ shalom [of Peace].

Isaiah 9:6
9:6 For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us, and the Princely Empire Power shall rest upon his shoulder: and he shall call his name, Pele-Yoetz-El-Gibbor-Abiad-Sar-Shalom.

The son that is given calls the Princely Power upon his shoulder all those things.
If one might begin with Pele then see Judges 13:18, (Peli - "too wonderful").

Judges 13:18
18 And the Malak of YHWH said to him, Why ask you thus for my name? It is Peli!

Peli ~ secret, too wonderful, wondrous, wonder working, (Palmoni, Dan 8:13 YLT).

By the way, that link was simply to show why the book of Leviticus is called VaYikra to begin with; for that is the opening phrase, and it is the same phrase under discussion and debate in Isaiah 9:6. Moreover the above is no doubt why the Kohanim and Yhudim who rendered the LXX-Septuagint rendered at least the first portion of the passage, (in bold and bold italics), in the following manner:

Esaias 9:6 (9:5) OG LXX-Septuagint
9:6 (9:5) οτι παιδιον εγεννηθη ημιν υιος και εδοθη ημιν ου η αρχη εγενηθη επι του ωμου αυτου και καλειται το ονομα αυτου μεγαλης βουλης αγγελος εγω γαρ αξω ειρηνην επι τους αρχοντας ειρηνην και υγιειαν αυτω
http://bibledatabase.net/html/septuagint/23_009.htm

Isaiah 9:6 OG LXX-Septuagint
9:6 (9:5) For a child is born unto us, and a son is given unto us, of whom the Arche shall be upon his shoulder: and he shall call his name, Messenger of Great Counsel, for I will bring peace upon the princes; peace and health by him.

Hmmm, Arche . . . . . . .
Your Evil Eye is utterly darkened, dear nineveh . . . :Nineveh:

"Congratulations Daqq, This Thread is just for you. (Exposing your Deceit)" Reply #69

According to the Septuagint those who rendered the phrase "El Gibbor" seem to have understood "El" here as "Messenger", (El Gibbor, "Great Messenger" or "Mighty Messenger"), in much the same way that occasionally, in other places such as the Psalms, (cf. Psa 8:5, Heb 2:7, 9), Elohim is/are understood as Messenger/Messengers, (Angels). That seems to be where their understanding of αγγελος-angelos herein is derived, that is, "Messenger", coming from the word for El, (אל). Thus they did not read yoetz as "a counselor" but simply as counsel:

פלא יועץ אל גבור
pele yoetz el gibor : mighty messenger of wonderful counsel

μεγαλης βουλης αγγελος
megales boules aggelos : mighty messenger of (wonderful) counsel

This is likely the reading which the Apostolic authors also had before them because the "tampering charge" certainly does not fit in this instance; for certainly no "Trinitarian scribe" would have come along and changed the reading to make it say this!

εγω γαρ αξω ειρηνην επι τους αρχοντας
"for I will bring peace to/upon the princes"

That is the full word abi`ad being read not as "my father of eternity" but as "I will bring (abi) to/unto (H5704 עַד `ad (prep.))", and similar readings can be shown from other places where abi is compounded to make other words which do indeed mean "I will bring" such as the following passages, (among others).

Genesis 42:37
וַיֹּאמֶר רְאוּבֵן אֶל־אָבִיו לֵאמֹר אֶת־שְׁנֵי בָנַי תָּמִית אִם־לֹא אֲבִיאֶנּוּ אֵלֶיךָ תְּנָה אֹתֹו עַל־יָדִי וַאֲנִי אֲשִׁיבֶנּוּ אֵלֶֽיךָ׃

(if not) "I bring him" — אֲבִיאֶ֖נּוּ

Isaiah 43:5
אַל־תִּירָא כִּי אִתְּךָ־אָנִי מִמִּזְרָח אָבִיא זַרְעֶךָ וּמִֽמַּעֲרָב אֲקַבְּצֶֽךָּ׃

"I will bring" — אָבִ֣יא

Isaiah 60:17
תַּחַת הַנְּחֹשֶׁת אָבִיא זָהָב וְתַחַת הַבַּרְזֶל אָבִיא כֶסֶף וְתַחַת הָֽעֵצִים נְחֹשֶׁת וְתַחַת הָאֲבָנִים בַּרְזֶל וְשַׂמְתִּי פְקֻדָּתֵךְ שָׁלֹום וְנֹגְשַׂיִךְ צְדָקָֽה׃

"I will bring" — אָבִ֣יא

So they in the Septuagint are reading abi`ad, (אביעד), from Isa 9:6 as one word meaning "I will bring to/unto/upon", and it is indeed written as a single compound word, (as opposed to something like אבי־עד).

Isaiah 9:6 WLC (Consonants Only)
כי־ילד ילד־לנו בן נתן־לנו ותהי המשרה על־שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אביעד שר־שלום׃

אביעד שר־שלום
אבי — I bring, (or "my father")
עד — H5704 עַד — to/unto/upon, (or H5703 עַד perpetuity, or H5707 עֵד witness)
שר־שלום — sar־shalom

The point above is not that the Septuagint absolutely must be the correct reading but that they certainly understood ancient Hebrew and were much, much, closer to the original text and much less removed from an understanding of it than those of modern times. And yet they did not see abi`ad, (אביעד), anywhere close to how it is understood by today's modern scholarship. Also one must remember that they did not have the vowel pointing which came a thousand years later with the Masorete Hebrew text.

The ultimate point is this: the Trinitarian readings are nothing more than opinions.
Here therefore is my opinion which takes into account the whole of scripture:

Isaiah 9:6
9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the Power of the Empire shall rest upon the yoke of his neck: and he shall call his name, Wonderful Counsel Mighty Messenger, My Father's Witness, the Prince of Peace.

 

[daqq]

Isaiah 9:6 really all boils down to two main problems:

1) Abiy, (אבי), does not just mean, "father", but rather, "my father", (but that is only if you separate it from the whole word which is found in the text, which is אביעד, and is not separated in the text as if it was intended as two words).
2) The yod in ויקרא at the beginning of the word clearly means "he", as in, "he calls", just as the link to the book of Leviticus above herein shows; for that is the very same word and form which is found in Isa 9:6, and because this word is the very first word in Leviticus, that is the reason why the book is called "VaYikra", ("And He called", waw/vav-"And", yod-"He").

Also, VaYikra (Leviticus) - "And He called"

From the Chabad link:

Vayikra-Leviticus 1:1 (CJB - Complete Jewish Bible)
1 And He called to Moses, and the Lord spoke to him from the Tent of Meeting, saying,

Rashi:

And He called to Moses: (ויקרא אל משה)

Therefore, as already stated, although I do not agree with the entire reading from Young's Literal Bible Translation, this portion of it is honest, unbiased, and correct, and it changes the entire meaning of the passage:

Isaiah 9:6 YLT
6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.