Christian Azazel Atonement Theory

[patrick jane]

Be right back . . .

Instead of making a bunch of false accusations about someone you do not know why do you not actually make an argument for all of your statements and assertions? YOU are the one doing all the "hooping and hollering" and that is plain as day for anyone actually willing to see it. And again you loudly proclaim, "Jesus is YHWH", showing that, for one, your version of "God Almighty" died at Golgotha, and two, your version of "God Almighty" is dead because the very definition of dead, is dead, and not alive, meaning that if indeed anything or anyone is dead then he or it cannot raise himself or itself back up to life because that is the very meaning of DEAD. The only other conclusion is that your version of "God Almighty" never actually died because the real God Almighty cannot be killed by His own creation. Thus your foolish idea from your vain imagination that the Father YHWH Elohim Almighty "became a mortal man" is clearly exposed as a lie.

You couldn't be more wrong daqq

 

[meshak]

You couldn't be more wrong daqq

how?

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Daqq is too Christian to refute for you, dude.

 

[daqq]

You couldn't be more wrong daqq

So then help me out here Patrick Jane; are you saying you also are one of those who says, "Jesus is YHWH"? You must be saying so if I take you at your word in your all-inclusive blanket statement. One can hardly argue logic with such a one who says that "Jesus is YHWH" because logic has clearly already been thrown out the window and such a one is given over to strong delusion. When you toss logic and reason aside, and turn the Father into His own Son, you get what you deserve. And if that is what you also believe then you are yet another MADist who believes that same way. That would make it now, as far as I can tell, yourself Patrick Jane, Evil.Eye., Musterion, and Jerry Shugart, or is it that you are all actually one and the same great horn of Yavan, now broken and divided to the four winds, having four different Modalist hats you switch out when you want to make different compass points from the four different winds of doctrines?

 

[daqq]

Refutation number three: mistakenly using Genesis 27 to support your claims.
The passages you quoted from Genesis 27 actually support what I have said:

You are accidentally calling Satan our Sin Bearer. Hebrews 13:13 is clear who bore our "shame" outside the camp.

You are accidentally blaspheming the Holy Spirit of Christ and Associating Him with Satan by calling Him a "Desert Demon". The name Azazal carries significant reference to Mark3:20-29 and it carries multiple meanings on multiple layers of Spiritual allegory.

Jesus (YHWH Incarnated) took the place of "Gentile, Demon, Ungodly, Adversarial, Heathen" peoples... cursed to Death's reign... and appeared before "YHWH Father" and "Adversary" as a shaggy goat man (Zechariah 3) (Genesis 27:9-10, 18-29) because of our collective sins that He bore. ... This is genuine Spiritual allegory bolstered by (John 5:39)

Zechariah 3 explains what happened and (1 Peter 3:18-22) bolsters this ... Romans 8:9 parallel to Luke 23:46
Brings this home....

But...

As I said to you already, the word used for hairy in this passage is the same word for goat used in Leviticus 16, where it concerns the two goats, one by lot for YHWH, and one by lot for Azazel, and it is again the same word used in Leviticus 17:7 KJV for sacrifices unto devils, (any offering of the field, or anywhere else, not having been brought to the Door of the Tabernacle).

Genesis 27:6-11 KJV
6 And Rebekah spake unto Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak unto Esau thy brother, saying,
7 Bring me venison, and make me savoury meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before the LORD before my death.
8 Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee.
9 Go now to the flock, and fetch me from thence two good kids of the goats; and I will make them savoury meat for thy father, such as he loveth:
10 And thou shalt bring it to thy father, that he may eat, and that he may bless thee before his death.
11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy [H8163 sa`iyr] man, and I am a smooth man:

Esau is therefore likened to this:

H8163 שָׂעִיר sa`iyr (saw-eer') adj.
שָׂעִר sa`ir (saw-eer')
1. shaggy.
2. (as noun) a he-goat.
3. (by analogy) a faun.
[from H8175]
KJV: devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

And look what is written immediately after the second portion which you quoted:

Genesis 27-30-40 KJV
30 And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting [the "hunter" typology is Nimrod].
31 And he also had made savoury meat, and brought it unto his father, and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his son's venison, that thy soul may bless me.
32 And Isaac his father said unto him, Who art thou? And he said, I am thy son, thy firstborn Esau.
33 And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed.
34 And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father.
35 And he said, Thy brother came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing.
36 And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing. And he said, Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me?
37 And Isaac answered and said unto Esau, Behold, I have made him thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; and with corn and wine have I sustained him: and what shall I do now unto thee, my son?
38 And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept.
39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above; [Dan 4:15, Nebuchadnezzar]
40 And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck. [dominion by possession, Dan 4:33]

Daniel 4:13-17 KJV
13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;
14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:
15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, [Gen 27:39-40] and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:
16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word [Memra] of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Hebrews 12:15-17 KJV
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

No place of repentance for Esau, though he sought it carefully with tears: and why? Because Esau is the typology of a devil-goat, your own twin old man nature fitted for dishonor and headed to destruction, just as you also have been forewarned many times in other of your own threads, even your own Slayer thread where you appear to have imagined that I was there just to help *you* in your own private agenda. Not so, my doctrine does not change across the board because it is the truth based in the Word of Truth. True doctrine applies to anyone who comes to Messiah including myself, (and I have been through these things in my own walk or I would not truly know of what I speak).

As it is written, "Yaakob I have loved, but Esau I have hated", (Mal 1:1-3, Rom 9:13).

Two vessels from the selfsame lump of clay as already shown:
Rom 9:13-26, Jer 18:1-6, Jer 19:1-11, Isa 29:14, 15, 16, and Isa 64:6, 7, 8.

And every man is a lump of clay as has also already been discussed in several different ways. What Reform and Calvinism does is to essentially reject the will of the Potter Himself, who says that He has the right to make them twain; for first comes the old man Esau nature, the natural man, a vessel fit to dishonor and destruction: then comes the second vessel, the new man which is born out of the destruction of the old. It is an allegory which when made into literal physical individual human beings, as Calvinism and Reform indeed do in their theology, ends up assigning literal physical individual human beings into destruction simply because God wills it to be so. They deny the right of the Creator Himself to make from themselves two vessels from the selfsame single lump of clay, themselves, so that they have no need to actually repent or change themselves: but this unfortunate set of circumstances comes at the expense of fellow human beings whom they assign to eternal hell fire just because those people do not agree with their own "elect" doctrines.

Carnal Minded Man -vs- Spiritual Minded Man
Old Man -vs- New Man
Pharaoh -vs- Moses
Ishmael -vs- Isaac
Esau -vs- Jacob

Elohim hardens the heart of the old man so that Elohim may destroy him and bring about a new birth, an Elohim seed, (Malachi 2:15), a holy one, the new man; and this is fulfilled in Messiah if we carry out his holy Testimony in our own lives: two vessels of spirit from the one single selfsame lump of clay. In this way of thinking there is NO UNRIGHTEOUSNESS with Elohim because He is not predetermining any one of His own individually created human beings into destruction just because He wills it to be so. Instead He has predetermined that each and every individual must part himself asunder, and render unto Caesar the things that be of Caesar, and render unto Elohim the things of Elohim. We therefore are required, as He says, to CLEAVE away unto Him if we love Him. Thus the "old man" must be crucified, mortified, put to death, allowed to die off on the vine: and Messiah is the only True Vine because his holy Testimony shows us how to do these things and become pleasing to his and our heavenly Father.

Rom 9:13-26, Jer 18:1-6, Jer 19:1-11, Isa 29:14, 15, 16, and Isa 64:6, 7, 8.

Remember the former things, dear brother.

 

[RBBI]

Common sense and remembering the law should suffice here, shouldn't it? Yeshua could not be the Azazel, because THEY NEVER ATE THAT SIN OFFERING (because it was not killed in the first place). So was He teaching His disciples to disobey Torah, by telling them to eat His body and drink His blood, you think? Which would have to be the case if He was the Azaxel goat. Peace

 

[RBBI]

@ Daqq...not going to quote it all for one sentence, but what you said about having been through these things of you would not truly know of what you speak, is point on. How many realize that the NT is explaining what the apostles actually experienced so they could explain it? They were actually set free of the law of sin and death, for example. That's a spiritual experience, not a pile of words. The Word is SPIRIT, written to our spirits, for the generation that is to become Spirit. Peace

 

[daqq]

@ Daqq...not going to quote it all for one sentence, but what you said about having been through these things of you would not truly know of what you speak, is point on. How many realize that the NT is explaining what the apostles actually experienced so they could explain it? They were actually set free of the law of sin and death, for example. That's a spiritual experience, not a pile of words. The Word is SPIRIT, written to our spirits, for the generation that is to become Spirit. Peace

Amen, all part of the walk, "Therefore, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is Elohim who works in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and questionings so that you may become blameless and harmless offspring of Elohim, without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world holding forth the Word of Life: that I may have whereof to glory in the day of Messiah, that I did not run in vain, neither labor in vain", Phil 2:12-16. Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith, prove your own selves: know you not your own selves how that Messiah Yeshua is in you, unless you be castaways? But I trust that you shall know that we are not castaways, 2Cor 13:5-6, (for the kingdom of the heavens is like unto a net, Matt 13:47-50).

 

[patrick jane]

how?

I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Daqq is too Christian to refute for you, dude.

Listen chick, Jesus is God

 

[daqq]

Listen chick, Jesus is God

Hmmm, and apparently according to someone else God is also Azazel. :nono:

 

[RBBI]

Listen chick, Jesus is God

Then I guess He's His own G-d, since He said G-d was our G-d AND HIS GOD. How exactly does the Most High G-d HAVE a G-d? Peace

 

[RBBI]

Hmmm, and apparently according to someone else God is also Azazel. :nono:

Reminds me of that old shell game, updated for Christians now. G-d, G-d, who's got the G-d? Sigh...

 

[jamie]

Common sense and remembering the law should suffice here, shouldn't it? Yeshua could not be the Azazel, because THEY NEVER ATE THAT SIN OFFERING (because it was not killed in the first place). So was He teaching His disciples to disobey Torah, by telling them to eat His body and drink His blood, you think? Which would have to be the case if He was the Azaxel goat. Peace

The Day of atonement is a fast day.

The Azazel took sins to an uninhabited place. The ultimate uninhabited place is the grave.

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by daqq
Hmmm, and apparently according to someone else God is also Azazel. :nono:

Reminds me of that old shell game, updated for Christians now. G-d, G-d, who's got the G-d? Sigh...

There do not seem to be many who realize the full impact of this statement:

Jude 1:14-14 KJV
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

We know the above is an actual quote from the book of Enoch because many fragments were recovered from Qumran, and they predate the advent of Messiah, (most of Enoch has been recovered with the only exception being anything from the "Parables" section). However the above statement, when read closely, is not just quoting from the book of Enoch but also stating that Enoch is indeed the original author of that book; for it says, Enoch prophesied, and then quotes the source, which is from the book of Enoch. That being the case, if one believes the Epistle of Jude is "inspired" as most of Christianity claims to believe, then where did Moshe get the name Azazel from? seeing that it is mentioned nowhere else in the modern canon? It makes perfect sense that Moshe sees no need to expound the name and meaning of Azazel anywhere else in the Torah because it was in Enoch, (and there are some other very ancient Jewish traditions which also appear to come from Enoch even though modern Judaism now rejects that work).

 

[daqq]

The Day of atonement is a fast day.

The Azazel took sins to an uninhabited place. The ultimate uninhabited place is the grave.

He does not go to "the grave" but is sent away into the dry-arid desert places, (seeking rest). And finding no rest, he returns to the house-body-temple from which he came out, and finds it swept and garnished. He goes out into the world because he is the spirit of the world.

1 John 2:18-20 ASV
18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.
20 And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

Who knows all things? The one who has the anointing.
Who and what is the anointing? The Testimony of Yeshua is the New Covenant Spirit.

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

What or who is "the prince of the power of the air" that you formerly served if you are now in the faith? And if you formerly served such a one then where did he go? Was he cast forth out of you when you first believed? Paul seems to make that fairly apparent. And if the prince of the power of the air went forth from your house-body-temple what does the Master say about that in the above Luke passage? No exceptions to the rule if you are truly his disciple.

Daniel 8:5
5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: [power of the air] and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Daniel 8:21
21 And the shaggy he-goat [sa`iyr tsaphiyr] is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Each in his or her own appointed times: your hour of trial, (1 John 2:18).
So Yeshua says, "Sin no more, lest something more evil come unto you", (John 5:14, #3).

Moreover, I say, if most do not even know that an unclean spirit went out of them when they first believed, or what that actually means in theologic terms, (doctrines), how shall they know when "the prince of the power of the air" returns? Are we not commanded to Watch! in Mark 13:37?

There sure is a lot of (fiery) hot air around here . . . :chuckle:

 

[patrick jane]

Then I guess He's His own G-d, since He said G-d was our G-d AND HIS GOD. How exactly does the Most High G-d HAVE a G-d? Peace

John 10:30 KJV -

 

[daqq]

John 10:30 KJV -

The Logos-Word of the Father and I are one.

 

[jamie]

He goes out into the world because he is the spirit of the world.

No, he's just a goat doing goat stuff, but bearing the sins of Israel until he dies.

 

[daqq]

No, he's just a goat doing goat stuff, but bearing the sins of Israel until he dies.

Why did you leave out so much of what I posted?
The shaggy goat of Yavan from of Daniel 8 is "just doing goat stuff"? :rotfl:

 

[jamie]

Why did you leave out so much of what I posted?
The shaggy goat of Yavan from of Daniel 8 is "just doing goat stuff"? :rotfl:

Goats can only do goat stuff, it's in their design parameters.

 

[daqq]

Goats can only do goat stuff, it's in their design parameters.

Parameters or perimeters?

But, yeah, sure looks to be by design . . .