Freak
New member
Defense of the Truth
Defense of the Truth
I'm very concerned about some of your most recent remarks that I would like to look over in this post. First of all, I do commend you for taking the tone that you have during this formal debate. I have attempted to elevate these debates to a higher level of discussion.
My concern however remains. I have continued to make my case using numerous Scriptures but centering on John 8:24 where Jesus once said: "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." Jesus spoke rather clearly. I believe I have proven my point that unless one believes Him (Jesus) for whom He says He is - the ego eimi - one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Jesus. As I have noted in this passage it is the Son who utilizes the phrase ego eimi in the absolute sense (which all the foremost Greek scholars point out-I would also like to point out even the Early Church Fathers such as Irenaeus showed familiarity with it as "I am" as did Origen and Novatian. Chrysostom wrote, "As the Father used this expression, "I Am," so also doth Christ; for it signifieth continuous Being, irrespective of time), identifying Himself as Yahweh. Jesus is claiming Deity for He is Deity and the Jews understood this very clearly.
Posted by Freak:
Jesus Christ was clear-"For unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins."
Me Again relies: Yes, you keep reiterating your mantra without scriptural proof.
I had just quoted from John 8 not to mention I have been building a solid Scriptuural foundation to prove why I believe what I believe (with the support the Greek text and Greek scholars which by the way you have not dealt with).
Posted by Freak:
"I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God." (a quote from A.T. Robertson)
Me Again incorrectly states: He does not do that in John 8:24,
Huh? A.T. Robertson was dealing with that particular verse. Dr. Leon Morris said the following about verse 24: 'I am' must have the fullest significance it can bear. It is, as we have already had occasion to notice...in the style of deity." (in a footnote on same page "ego eimi in LXX renders the Hebrew ani hu which is the way God speaks (cf. Deut. 32:39; Isa. 41:4, 43:10, 46:4, etc.). The Hebrew may carry a reference to the meaning of the divine name Yahweh (cf. Exod. 3:14). We should almost certainly understand John's use of the term to reflect that in the LXX. It is the style of deity, and it points to the eternity of God according to the strictest understanding of the continuous nature of the present eimi. He continually IS. Cf. Abbott: "taken here, along with other declarations about what Jesus IS, it seems to call upon the Pharisees to believe that the Son of man is not only the Deliverer but also one with the Father in the unity of the Godhead."
Next...
Me again states: I’m waiting for you to prove it with the scriptures.
Start reading some of my posts and the Scriptural evidence I have provided.
Now to the part that not only confused others on TOL but to me. You said in your last post: I am of the opinion that the Lord Jesus is one in mission and one in purpose with the Father, yet they are two separate beings.
This is strange theology. According to Biblical theology there is in the Divine Being (note: not beings as you have stated but one being) but one "indivisible essence" (ousia, essentia). In this one Divine Being there are three Persons- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The whole undivided essence of God belongs equally to each of the three persons (see Deuteronomy 4:35, 6:4, 10:14, Psalm 96:5, 97:9, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6-8, 44:24, 45:5-6, 45:21-23, 46:9, 48:11-12, John 17:3, 1 Timothy 2:5, Revelation 1:8,)
:down: Then it gets even stranger when you claim: I also believe that Michael the Archangel was actually the Lord Jesus Christ in his pre-human birth form. He came h
Jesus the Son of God was not a angel, Me Again, in his pre-human form for He was/is God. Just simple common sense tells you since He is God He cannot be an "angel" even pre-Virgin birth. God does not change, the Son has always been the Son.
You asked: I am of the opinion that you believe that Jesus is the Father. Am I correct?
The answer is NO! You must believe Jesus is God in accordance to the Scriptures I have pointed. God the Father is the God the Father, God the Son is the God the Son, etc, there is a distinction with the Godhead as three persons in One God.
You said: He may wear the title of Jehovah Witness or Mormon or another Christian offshoot, even though they have many false teachings.
So, since you agree with me that they have a false teachings (esp. in regards to who Jesus is) there is no reason from this point on to defend your fallacy that they may be saved by placing their faith in Christ (they may place a faith in a false Christ).
I'm still waiting for some kind of answer to the following vaild questions: By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God. For as I pointed out in my last post: Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10?
And...well, I'll just wait until you answer this one....

Defense of the Truth
My concern however remains. I have continued to make my case using numerous Scriptures but centering on John 8:24 where Jesus once said: "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." Jesus spoke rather clearly. I believe I have proven my point that unless one believes Him (Jesus) for whom He says He is - the ego eimi - one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Jesus. As I have noted in this passage it is the Son who utilizes the phrase ego eimi in the absolute sense (which all the foremost Greek scholars point out-I would also like to point out even the Early Church Fathers such as Irenaeus showed familiarity with it as "I am" as did Origen and Novatian. Chrysostom wrote, "As the Father used this expression, "I Am," so also doth Christ; for it signifieth continuous Being, irrespective of time), identifying Himself as Yahweh. Jesus is claiming Deity for He is Deity and the Jews understood this very clearly.
Posted by Freak:
Jesus Christ was clear-"For unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins."
Me Again relies: Yes, you keep reiterating your mantra without scriptural proof.
Posted by Freak:
"I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God." (a quote from A.T. Robertson)
Me Again incorrectly states: He does not do that in John 8:24,
Next...
Me again states: I’m waiting for you to prove it with the scriptures.
Start reading some of my posts and the Scriptural evidence I have provided.
This is strange theology. According to Biblical theology there is in the Divine Being (note: not beings as you have stated but one being) but one "indivisible essence" (ousia, essentia). In this one Divine Being there are three Persons- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The whole undivided essence of God belongs equally to each of the three persons (see Deuteronomy 4:35, 6:4, 10:14, Psalm 96:5, 97:9, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6-8, 44:24, 45:5-6, 45:21-23, 46:9, 48:11-12, John 17:3, 1 Timothy 2:5, Revelation 1:8,)
:down: Then it gets even stranger when you claim: I also believe that Michael the Archangel was actually the Lord Jesus Christ in his pre-human birth form. He came h
Jesus the Son of God was not a angel, Me Again, in his pre-human form for He was/is God. Just simple common sense tells you since He is God He cannot be an "angel" even pre-Virgin birth. God does not change, the Son has always been the Son.
You asked: I am of the opinion that you believe that Jesus is the Father. Am I correct?
The answer is NO! You must believe Jesus is God in accordance to the Scriptures I have pointed. God the Father is the God the Father, God the Son is the God the Son, etc, there is a distinction with the Godhead as three persons in One God.
You said: He may wear the title of Jehovah Witness or Mormon or another Christian offshoot, even though they have many false teachings.
So, since you agree with me that they have a false teachings (esp. in regards to who Jesus is) there is no reason from this point on to defend your fallacy that they may be saved by placing their faith in Christ (they may place a faith in a false Christ).
I'm still waiting for some kind of answer to the following vaild questions: By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God. For as I pointed out in my last post: Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10?
And...well, I'll just wait until you answer this one....