SECOND POST (of me again)
SECOND POST (of me again)
To prevent this post from becoming too long, I will do two things
:
- I will place my initial rebuttal to Freak’s thesis in this post
-- and --
- I will expound on my opening statement in a different post.
Rebuttal
- [*]Freak‘s Point #1:
"I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.) Jesus declared rather clearly in this verse that you must believe He is God in order to have your sins forgiven. A denial of this truth will result in one dying "in their sins".
I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the great
”I AM.” The burning bush that spoke to Moses was none other then Jesus
!!! However, the Greek
ego eimi in John 8:58 and in John 8:24 does
not prove your thesis that
”a man must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” I will expound on what the scriptures say about salvation when I expand on my opening remarks. But first, I want to address your thesis.
Let’s examine the verbatim words of Jesus in the scripture that Freak is using to support his thesis
:
- John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
I interpret the words of Jesus as follows
:
- I am the Messiah!!! I am the promised One!!! I am He who God has sent!!! You must believe in Me or you will die in your sins!!!
If we look at the sixth previous verse in John 8:16b, we clearly see that the scripture says that
“Jesus is the Man whom God has sent.” Let’s review this scripture
:
- Jo 8:16b
. . . the Father that sent me.
If we put John 8:24 in the proper context, we see that Jesus is saying
:
- That God sent Him
-- and --
- That He is the Messiah.
Let’s look at some other translations, in addition to the KJV Bible to corroborate this
:
- NIV
I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. (John 8:16b) I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins. (John 8:24)
NASB
I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. (John 8:16b) Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24)
AMP
I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of Us] I and the Father, Who sent Me. (John 8:24) That is why I told you that you will die in (under the curse of) your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He [Whom I claim to be -- if you do not adhere to, trust in, and rely on Me], you will die in your sins. (John 8:24)
Jesus is claiming to be the Man whom the Father has sent
!!! To suggest that this scripture (John 8:24) is telling us that we must confess
”Jesus is God” to be saved is unreasonable and unscriptural.
- [*]Freak‘s Point #2:
It is not simply enough to have faith, for faith in faith is not good enough. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in (in this case Jesus being very God). You must put your faith in the proper object (Jesus being very God). Cults (like the Christadelphians, Mormons, Jw's) have false objects of faith (denial that Jesus is very God); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are. If you put your faith in a door knob, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment (only Jesus who is God is able to save). You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you. Only God is able to forgive sins so you must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness of sins. A denial of this truth is a basic denial of who He claimed to be.
I am only going to comment on selected ideas from the above listed paragraph, to wit
:
- Posted by Freak:
You must put your faith in the proper object (Jesus being very God).
I can find no scripture that says,
”You must confess that Jesus is God to be saved.” If you will provide a scripture, I will examine it.
- Posted by Freak:
Cults (like the Christadelphians, Mormons, Jw's) have false objects of faith (denial that Jesus is very God); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
Faith is a matter of the heart and only God can see into the heart of a man. I am of the opinion that many cult members will be saved because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. While they may have been born and raised in a cult, the Lord Jesus knows the sincerity of their heart towards Him. I think that it is wrong of you to automatically condemn a cult member to hell because you do not know the circumstances of their life. You do not know how they came to be in a cult. Neither do you know their relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. That relationship is special and is exclusively between them and Him.
There are many reasons why people join cults. Some are born into it. Some were enlisted as children, as teenagers or as adults through a myriad of ways that are too numerous to postulate here. The point is simple
: People learn about Jesus through cults, through churches, through missionaries and, in select cases, through personal visits of Jesus Himself
(my own case and the Apostle Paul come to mind). Once people learn about the Lord Jesus, the promptings of the Holy Spirit gently guides their hearts into His truths.
All of us are on different paths and we were all born into different circumstances. Some travel down the path of hard labor while a few are born into a life of wealth and ease. Our many different paths are restricted by caste systems, cultural biases, racial or ethnic differences, countries of origin and other innumerable differences. What is ironic is that the Lord Jesus Christ is familiar with the backgrounds and paths of each and every one of us, believers and unbelievers alike. He knows where our intellectual growth was stunted and, as our Chief Judge, he knows
why it was stunted. He knows the obstacles in our paths that hindered us and that prevented us from becoming the full potential of
“being created in the image of God.” But the battle for us isn’t over yet. He’ll take each and every case on an individual basis He’ll do two things
:
- He’ll judge us righteously, as only He can do, based upon the knowledge that we have.
- He’ll improve us, no matter what our station in life is. We were a mess when we came to Him, but He did not reject us. He picked us up and stood us up on our feet and gave each and every one of us a ”special calling” that is unique to our life. Our calling is unique to us, to our lives, to our circumstances and to our surroundings. As a result of His calling upon our lives, those who are around us are blessed because of Him. When He blesses us, those who are around us are inevitably blessed. And it‘s all because of Jesus.
This same Jesus is looked upon by members of every nation, kindred, tongue and tribe of the earth. The salvic requirement is that we accept Jesus for who He is
:
- The only begotten Son of God, the first fruits of many to come.
I can find no scripture that says
”Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Nay, not one.
- Posted by Freak:
Only God is able to forgive sins so you must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness of sins.
No, I disagree with you. You have not provided one scripture to support your hypothesis. The scriptures clearly state that only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, coupled with repentance, brings forgiveness
:
- Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Act 2:38
. . . Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins . . .
Jay, the following statement comes from you and you alone and it cannot be found in the Bible
:
- Posted by Freak:
You must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness.
You cannot legitimately turn this extra-biblical statement into a cannon of salvation. It is unscriptural.
- [*]Freak’s Point #3:
The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4). The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ.
I understand your attempt to correlate the above scriptures to fit your thesis, I simply disagree. Lets quote each of your referenced scriptures, from above, and see if the reader can come to Jay’s conclusion that
“you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”
- Scriptures Posted by Freak:
John 1:1,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1Jo 4:2-3
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
After reading these scriptures, I simply do not draw the same conclusion as you do, Jay. Nowhere does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. These scriptures say that the Word was with God in the beginning and that He was made flesh and that anyone who denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is from antichrist.
- [*]Freak’s Point #4:
The Scriptures teach what is known as the "The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man. The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The blood atoning sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay the debt for the sins of the world. As God - Jesus must be God (note: must be God) to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man (one cannot deny this basic truth). He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that (you must believe this). As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man. As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).
Once again, I understand your attempt to correlate the above scriptures to fit your thesis, but I simply disagree and do not draw the same conclusions that you are drawing. Again, let’s quote each of your referenced scriptures to see if the reader can come to your conclusion that
“you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”
- Scriptures Posted by Freak:
1Jo 2:2
And [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Ti 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Nowhere does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. It simply says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the entire world and that He is the
only mediator between God and mankind.
- [*]Freak’s Point #5:
According to Me again one can: "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart" and deny He is God and still be a Christian. So, Me again, does it matter if the Mormons who believe Jesus with all their heart and that they believe He is the brother of the devil begotten through sexual intercourse from a god and goddess who used to be people on another planet (see Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 321)? Do we need to know who this Jesus is? My Savior, Jesus Christ, is God.
Let me address your points one-by-one
:
- Posted by Freak:
Does it matter if the Mormons, who believe Jesus with all their heart, and that they believe He is the brother of the devil, begotten through sexual intercourse from a god and goddess who used to be people on another planet, (see Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 321)?
Jay, it is difficult to address your question because within your question, your have levied a judgment that is reserved exclusively for God. You have judged their heart, in reference to their relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. You said
:
- Posted by Freak:
Snip…
Mormons, who believe Jesus with all their heart…
In reference to their heart, I can only tell you what the scriptures tell us
:
- Rom 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
There are varying degrees of deception and of Biblical knowledge. As I stated earlier, I believe that some cult members will be saved, due to their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. For you to presuppose that a man is damned, just because he was born and raised and taught in a cult, is rather presumptuous of you. I would not want to be in your shoes on judgment day when you have to answer to the Lord Jesus Christ as to why you vociferously damned some of His sheep. But that is between you and Him.
- Posted by Freak:
Snip…
Does it matter if the Mormons believe [Jesus] is the brother of the devil, begotten through sexual intercourse, from a god and goddess, who used to be people on another planet…
Yes, I think it does matter. Again, there are varying degrees of deception. Conversely, do you acknowledge that you may be doctrinally deceived in some of your interpretational analysis’s of the scriptures? Or do you claim absolute knowledge in all scriptural areas, just as the Mormons do? If you are wrong in one doctrinal area
(as the Mormons are), then are you damned
(as you say they are damned)? Is your judgmental methodology a two-way street?
These are tough questions and I would not damn you, just as I would not damn the Mormons because that is reserved exclusively for God. I would not presume to levy His judgment on others because I do not know the circumstances of their lives. I don’t know what led them up to their deception. Neither do I know what led you up to your deceptive conclusion that
”a man must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Neither do I judge your eternal destiny for your heretical conclusion.
Conclusion
In conclusion, Jay has not provided one scripture to support his thesis that
”a man must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Jay has incorrectly used several scriptures as proof texts to incorrectly prove the validity of his thesis. I have taken every one of those scriptures and have contextually examined them here in this thread and have found that they do not substantiate his thesis.
