Can Anyone Explain 'Why gay marriage?'

[musterion]

AB, I hope you learn of Reformed Theology from those who know it well and not from angry anti-Calvinists who spew lies and misinformation.

What lies and misinformation?

 

[Nang]

Universal salvation would be every bit as unjust as Calvinism because it would demand that, in time, God forces everyone to be saved whether they want to be or not, violating their free will and making faith irrelevant.

Faith is not a free-will decision or choice.

Faith is an attribute of the Son of God; gifted to the Redeemed by His grace.

Faith is belief and love for God and His Truth, that no man possesses until or unless God grants it to him.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I agree with you that God's will be done, and I do not pray in the attempt to change His mind or will.

I simply pray in hope that perhaps He has led me to pray for souls He has chosen for glory, and has given me the privilege to share in His wonderful works!

Why bother? You're not praying because you care about anybody and it makes no difference so why? If my nieces are 'hellbound' then you'll be giving glory to God over that as well, right?

 

[musterion]

Faith is not a free-will decision or choice.

Faith is an attribute of the Son of God; gifted to the Redeemed by His grace.

Faith is belief and love for God and His Truth, that no man possesses until or unless God grants it to him.

2 Thess 2:10 destroys your blasphemy.

 

[Right Divider]

Well in that case God is only the saviour of believers, not especially...

1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
​

You can believe whatever you want, I'll stick with the Bible.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Universal salvation would be every bit as unjust as Calvinism because it would demand that, in time, God forces everyone to be saved whether they want to be or not, violating their free will and making faith irrelevant. It still ends up in fatalism.

Know how following two arcs of a circle eventually bring you to meeing on the far side? Same thing here. Universalism is the mirror image of Nang's fatalistic Calvinism. They actually teach the same thing...that God FORCES salvation on people...the only difference is how many He forces it upon.

Why? Is it more 'just' for you to have people forced into an eternity of suffering for not believing right on this short plane of existence instead? Is it beyond the remit of your God to bring everybody into the fold? Or do you just see all atheists, agnostics and people of different faiths as 'God haters'?

 

[Arthur Brain]

1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
​

You can believe whatever you want, I'll stick with the Bible.

Except you aren't, not without twisting the word 'especially' into 'only' at any rate.

 

[patrick jane]

Universal salvation would be every bit as unjust as Calvinism because it would demand that, in time, God forces everyone to be saved whether they want to be or not, violating their free will and making faith irrelevant. It still ends up in fatalism.

Know how following two arcs of a circle eventually bring you to meeing on the far side? Same thing here. Universalism is the mirror image of Nang's fatalistic Calvinism. They actually teach the same thing...that God FORCES salvation on people...the only difference is how many He forces it upon.

Believing is not God forcing salvation. calvinism says you can't believe on your own

 

[musterion]

Calvinism destroyed:

...they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

These are not reprobates (who CANNOT be saved) because Paul says they MIGHT be saved, but they were not saved because they did not receive [they rejected] the love of the truth.

Reprobates, according to Calvinism, have no "might be saved." They can't be saved.

The elect, according to Calvinism, cannot reject the truth, at least not forever and definitely not unto damnation.

Calvinism's basic division of humanity is destroyed.

Nang will respond to this by attacking me.

 

[musterion]

Believing is not God forcing salvation.

It is in Calvinism.

calvinism says you can't believe on your own

So you will be made to believe, if you're Elect. That's what Irresistible Grace means.

 

[Arthur Brain]

AB, I hope you learn of Reformed Theology from those who know it well and not from angry anti-Calvinists who spew lies and misinformation.

Sorry Eagles Wings, I know enough about reformed theology to be opposed to it in principle. I've had years debating with Calvinists and in essence it's the very same. Some are more amenable in demeanor than others but the insidious belief still underpins the theology as far as I'm concerned. See my exchange with Nang as regards my nieces by way of.

 

[Eagles Wings]

Why bother? You're not praying because you care about anybody and it makes no difference so why? If my nieces are 'hellbound' then you'll be giving glory to God over that as well, right?

The saints of God sorrow over unrepentant sinners. That is why we pray for those God calls us to pray for. Nang and I humbly rejoice in this calling because we know so great a Love, in Christ, only by His grace.

 

[Arthur Brain]

None. The blood of Christ was not shed for them, if they're in the wrong bucket.

And that right there tells you how evil Nang is -- she'll come back and say "God" is just if he should cast your nieces into the Lake of Fire even though they never had a chance to be saved (if they're reprobate).

Well, you'd say God was just if he cast them into eternal suffering for being unbelievers as well though, right? Your belief system isn't much better frankly.

 

[musterion]

Why? Is it more 'just' for you to have people forced into an eternity of suffering for not believing right on this short plane of existence instead?

If you underestimate how much God hates sin, then that would indeed seem very unjust to you. But if one takes the awfulness of sin into account, it does make sense. Sin cannot exist in His presence, and it won't.

Is it beyond the remit of your God to bring everybody into the fold?

Then you'd be outraged that He forces Himself on everyone.

Or do you just see all atheists, agnostics and people of different faiths as 'God haters'?

If anyone -- "Christian," religious or not -- has heard the truth and understands it, but still chooses to reject it, yes they will be dealt with as enemies because that's what the Bible calls them..."lovers of self more than lovers of God."

But I'm done speaking to you on this because you don't actually believe any of what you're discussing.

 

[Eagles Wings]

Sorry Eagles Wings, I know enough about reformed theology to be opposed to it in principle. I've had years debating with Calvinists and in essence it's the very same. Some are more amenable in demeanor than others but the insidious belief still underpins the theology as far as I'm concerned. See my exchange with Nang as regards my nieces by way of.

Well, I hope you consider my pm and visit with Reformed believers elsewhere.

 

[musterion]

Well, you'd say God was just if he cast them into eternal suffering for being unbelievers as well though, right? Your belief system isn't much better frankly.

My system -- the Biblical system -- takes sin and faith into account. God wants and deserves to be believed by us, but He forces no one to believe Him. Not once in the Bible can you find Him doing that.

 

[Right Divider]

Except you aren't, not without twisting the word 'especially' into 'only' at any rate.

The Bible makes it clear that some are going to be condemned to hell for their unbelief. So it means what it says.

You are the one that it trying to change the obvious meaning.

 

[musterion]

For universalism to be true (and I'm surprised to realize AB is apparently a universalist), God must force salvation upon people who do not want Him and make them want Him.

Is there a Calvinist here who is not comfortable with saying God forces salvation upon certain elect unbelievers, just as universalism says He'll eventually force it upon all unbelievers?

 

[Arthur Brain]

The saints of God sorrow over unrepentant sinners. That is why we pray for those God calls us to pray for. Nang and I humbly rejoice in this calling because we know so great a Love, in Christ, only by His grace.

But yet this same grace is denied to others and by design, from the foundation or even before. If people are created in a state whereby there's no way they can even feel remorse or repent then what's the point in having sorrow over it? If it was all set up that way? Nang or you can pray for those dear to me as much as you like, it wouldn't make one shred of difference to their fate either way would it? If they are "reprobate" then you'd be rejoicing over the 'sovereign justice' of God as well, right? Be honest.

Now, can you see why I and others have a problem with that?

 

[Nang]

But yet this same grace is denied to others and by design, from the foundation or even before. If people are created in a state whereby there's no way they can even feel remorse or repent then what's the point in having sorrow over it? If it was all set up that way? Nang or you can pray for those dear to me as much as you like, it wouldn't make one shred of difference to their fate either way would it? If they are "reprobate" then you'd be rejoicing over the 'sovereign justice' of God as well, right? Be honest.

Now, can you see why I and others have a problem with that?

How many "free-willers" like Musty are praying for your nieces, asking God that they will decide on their own, to believe Jesus Christ and repent?

What if that never happens and those prayers are not answered?

Do you have the same problem with that?