Greetings again Clete Fair enough, but it has a range of meaning and I suggest that it is not speaking about a Being in John 1:1 but a personified concept similar to Wisdom in Proverbs 8, where Wisdom is personified as a Wise Woman who was with God during the Creation process.
Proverbs 8:12, 22–31 (KJV): 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
One thing that I was taught in my youth was that you have to be careful with that type of logic, A=B and A=C then B=C. One title for this is syllogism, and if you look this up you will find many types, faulty syllogisms, partial syllogisms etc. There is often a fourth factor that shows your type of deduction as being faulty. In my youth one of our expositors mentioned his assessment of much of the logic by Job’s three friends could be summarised by the following faulty syllogism:
All suffering is the result of sin, Job is a great sufferer, Therefore Job is a great sinner.
This is a faulty syllogism, as Jesus is the Son of God. QED. I agree with the verse that Jacob alluded to and that you also tentatively endorse:
John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
But I suggest that Trinitarians do not agree that this is the proper summary of the theme and purpose of John’s Gospel, and they actually have a perspective that disagrees with this summary.
Kind regards
Trevor
Right back at ya.
For your above is just plain nonsense.
Your "personified concept" (wisdom as a woman) remains merely a concept, personified.
In contrast to the following, which is referring to a Being.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.
1:10 HE was in the world, and the world was made by HIM, and the world knew HIM not. 1:11 HE came unto HIS OWN, and HIS OWN received HIM not. 1:12 But as many as received HIM, to them gave HE power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on HIS name:
1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld HIS glory, the glory AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN as of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 1:15 John bare witness of HIM, and cried, saying, This was HE of whom I spake, HE THAT COMETH after me is preferred before me: FOR HE WAS BEFORE ME.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE hath declared him.
And what did HE HIMSELF say about HIS Pre-incarnation?
John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, EVEN THE SON IF MAN WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
What did Paul say about HIS transition from HIS Pre-incarnate FORM?
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, WHICH WAS ALSO IN CHRIST JESUS: 2:6 WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 2:7 But made HIMSELF of no reputation, AND TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and was made in the likeness of men: 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, HE humbled HIMSELF, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted HIM, and given HIM a name which is above every name: 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 5:6-8.
oly: