Can a Jew be saved without believing the Trinity?

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Clete,
The logic (i.e. the syllogism) is not at fault here. In fact, logic never - ever - is. Logic, or more apply, sound reason is nothing more than conforming your mind to reality.

You should find your old teacher and punch him in the face! He has has taught you to distrust the only means by which your mind has to learn, the only tool with which you are capable of discerning truth from error. He may well have doomed your soul to Hell in the process.
Actually, I highly respect this mentor as he helped me gain a reasonable understanding of the Book of Job. Btw, you will have to wait until the resurrection to speak to my brother-in-law, but you could speak to my sister who was his wife. She helped to prepare the manuscript for his commentary on Job. You have not answered the concept of the depiction of Wisdom as a Wise Woman in Proverbs 8.
Why would anyone disagree with a syllable of that summary?
Jesus was, quite literally, the Son of God. Before God became a Man, there was no "Jesus". Jesus was a human male born of a virgin and of God.
There is no denying BY ANYONE that this is the truth.
A Trinitarian may say that Jesus is the Son of God, but they believe that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, that He is God the Son, not the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings Idolater,
We believe both.
Perhaps you claim both, but the two concepts are, in my opinion at least, contradictory if you try to explain the details. If you want to give a simple summary of how Jesus is God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity and a man, the Son of God at the same time, then I will attempt to understand. Was he God or human when he was a babe and a child? Did he have two minds at the same time, the mind of a man and the mind of God? Did he have all knowledge, or was he limited in knowledge? And many other relative qualities of God and man could be mentioned.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Greetings Idolater,Perhaps you claim both, but the two concepts are, in my opinion at least, contradictory if you try to explain the details. If you want to give a simple summary of how Jesus is God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity and a man, the Son of God at the same time, then I will attempt to understand. Was he God or human when he was a babe and a child? Did he have two minds at the same time, the mind of a man and the mind of God? Did he have all knowledge, or was he limited in knowledge? And many other relative qualities of God and man could be mentioned.

Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus is risen from the dead, and He ascended to heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father---all this is true, and Jesus trained/prepared the Apostles to institute the Church just the way He wanted it, including the Church instruction in matters of faith and morals---and the Church wasn't hindering the teaching of the Trinity, that Jesus is God, and Constantine, in the process of protecting the Church from being haphazardly killed/martyred, forced the Church's hand, and there was a Nicene council, and they published the Creed, and it was generated from a majority of bishops, who testified to the council what they heard, through oral, Sacred Tradition, about what the Apostles had instructed on the matter.

The Apostles were Trinitarian. The Catholic Church is Trinitarian, and the Orthodox churches are Trinitarian.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Greetings glorydaz, Jesus is also the Way, the Truth and the Life, as well as the Word and he also has the name “the Word of God” as you have now quoted. There is a distinction between the Word in John 1:1, 14 and the being, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords who has the name “the Word of God” Revelation 19:13. Please note the distinction “the Word” and “the Word of God”.

“The Word of God” does not say “the Word who is God”.

I think that's known as the quick shuffle step. :chuckle:


It says the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Your claim is that a personified concept was with and was God in the beginning? :AMR:


All these terms find their greatest fulfilment in Jesus, but they do not prove what you seem to be asserting that John 1:1 is speaking about the Second person of the Trinity. John 1:1 does not say any such thing. You are following A=B and A=C then B=C or some similar logic which is faulty. Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son.

Kind regards
Trevor

Then you claim this "personified concept" (him) made all things.


Pretty hard for a "personified concept" to become flesh and dwell among us, too, isn't it?



John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

So, let me ask you, do you notice anything from this text that could possibly match up with John 1:1-3?

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Idolater,
Jesus is risen from the dead, and He ascended to heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father---all this is true, and Jesus trained/prepared the Apostles to institute the Church just the way He wanted it, including the Church instruction in matters of faith and morals---and the Church wasn't hindering the teaching of the Trinity, that Jesus is God, and Constantine, in the process of protecting the Church from being haphazardly killed/martyred, forced the Church's hand, and there was a Nicene council, and they published the Creed, and it was generated from a majority of bishops, who testified to the council what they heard, through oral, Sacred Tradition, about what the Apostles had instructed on the matter.

The Apostles were Trinitarian. The Catholic Church is Trinitarian, and the Orthodox churches are Trinitarian.
I question, or rather strongly reject the idea that the Apostles were Trinitaraian. Yes I understand the development of the concept of the Trinity up until Constantine and beyond, I suggest that this is the part of the falling away, or Apostasy from the Apostolic faith. You did not address my questions about Jesus as a babe and in his youth, whether he was God or a human.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again Glorydaz,
I think that's known as the quick shuffle step. :chuckle:
It says the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Your claim is that a personified concept was with and was God in the beginning? :AMR:
That's fine. Have you compared Proverbs 8 where Wisdom, as a Wise Woman was with God in Creation? Was Wisdom there as a Woman, and who is She? (One step at a time).

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Greetings again Clete,Actually, I highly respect this mentor as he helped me gain a reasonable understanding of the Book of Job. Btw, you will have to wait until the resurrection to speak to my brother-in-law, but you could speak to my sister who was his wife. She helped to prepare the manuscript for his commentary on Job.
All you have to do to understand the book of Job is to read it.

Just read it - that's it.

Not that there isn't plenty to be gleened from it through deeper study but "to gain a reasonable understaning", all one need do is to read the words on the page. It isn't written in code.

You have not answered the concept of the depiction of Wisdom as a Wise Woman in Proverbs 8.
I haven't answered what?

A Trinitarian may say that Jesus is the Son of God, but they believe that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, that He is God the Son, not the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
They believe both.
 

JudgeRightly

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Perhaps you claim both,

No, we believe both, because both are true.

but the two concepts are, in my opinion at least, contradictory if you try to explain the details.

Your opinion has been noted and subsequently rejected.

If you want to give a simple summary of how Jesus is God the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity and a man, the Son of God at the same time, then I will attempt to understand.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.

http://opentheism.org/white.html#god-the-sons-humanity

Was he God or human when he was a babe and a child?

Both.

Did he have two minds at the same time,

No.

the mind of a man and the mind of God?

One cannot have two minds.

He DID, however, have two natures, He was fully God, and fully man.

Did he have all knowledge,

Omniscience is never explicitly attributed to God in the Bible.

God can know everything that is knowable, and He does not have to know something that He does not want to know.

or was he limited in knowledge?

The Bible says He emptied Himself.

And many other relative qualities of God and man could be mentioned.

Such as?
 

Danoh

New member
Greetings again Clete Fair enough, but it has a range of meaning and I suggest that it is not speaking about a Being in John 1:1 but a personified concept similar to Wisdom in Proverbs 8, where Wisdom is personified as a Wise Woman who was with God during the Creation process.
Proverbs 8:12, 22–31 (KJV): 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

One thing that I was taught in my youth was that you have to be careful with that type of logic, A=B and A=C then B=C. One title for this is syllogism, and if you look this up you will find many types, faulty syllogisms, partial syllogisms etc. There is often a fourth factor that shows your type of deduction as being faulty. In my youth one of our expositors mentioned his assessment of much of the logic by Job’s three friends could be summarised by the following faulty syllogism:
All suffering is the result of sin, Job is a great sufferer, Therefore Job is a great sinner.
This is a faulty syllogism, as Jesus is the Son of God. QED. I agree with the verse that Jacob alluded to and that you also tentatively endorse:
John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
But I suggest that Trinitarians do not agree that this is the proper summary of the theme and purpose of John’s Gospel, and they actually have a perspective that disagrees with this summary.

Kind regards
Trevor

Right back at ya.

For your above is just plain nonsense.

Your "personified concept" (wisdom as a woman) remains merely a concept, personified.

In contrast to the following, which is referring to a Being.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.

1:10 HE was in the world, and the world was made by HIM, and the world knew HIM not. 1:11 HE came unto HIS OWN, and HIS OWN received HIM not. 1:12 But as many as received HIM, to them gave HE power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on HIS name:

1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld HIS glory, the glory AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN as of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 1:15 John bare witness of HIM, and cried, saying, This was HE of whom I spake, HE THAT COMETH after me is preferred before me: FOR HE WAS BEFORE ME.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE hath declared him.

And what did HE HIMSELF say about HIS Pre-incarnation?

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, EVEN THE SON IF MAN WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

What did Paul say about HIS transition from HIS Pre-incarnate FORM?

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, WHICH WAS ALSO IN CHRIST JESUS: 2:6 WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 2:7 But made HIMSELF of no reputation, AND TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT, and was made in the likeness of men: 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, HE humbled HIMSELF, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted HIM, and given HIM a name which is above every name: 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 5:6-8.
 

Pierac

New member
I was a Christian without Trinitarian belief. I believe that a Jew can be saved without a belief in the Trinity. Does anyone want to challenge me on this? I am willing to discuss or have a conversation.

I think the real question is... can you be saved if you believe in the trinity...

Jesus say's no...


Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

According to Jesus... If you don't know the one true God whom sent him... You do not have eternal life and note also... gave him his revelations... Rev1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him

Preformed miracles through him... Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

With out this knowledge... you will not reign in the coming kingdom... that's a given By Jesus Himself!

Why do you not know these things?
:sherlock::poly:
Paul
 

Truster

New member
I was a Christian without Trinitarian belief. I believe that a Jew can be saved without a belief in the Trinity. Does anyone want to challenge me on this? I am willing to discuss or have a conversation.

When someone has been converted they will be brought to the knowledge of the truth, including The Triune Eternal Almighty.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned

I think the real question is... can you be saved if you believe in the trinity...

Jesus say's no...


Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

According to Jesus... If you don't know the one true God whom sent him... You do not have eternal life and note also... gave him his revelations... Rev1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him

Preformed miracles through him... Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

With out this knowledge... you will not reign in the coming kingdom... that's a given By Jesus Himself!

Why do you not know these things?
:sherlock::poly:
Paul
Good scripture. I think that asking why I do not know these things does not make sense. But I appreciate the reminder.
 

Pierac

New member
Good scripture. I think that asking why I do not know these things does not make sense. But I appreciate the reminder.

You will know... in your due time... Salvation is to all that is given!

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48 This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.

Do not fear what you can not control... Just know... GOD is LOVE! and... You are Loved! ;)

Paul
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
You will know... in your due time... Salvation is to all that is given!

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48 This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.

Do not fear what you can not control... Just know... GOD is LOVE! and... You are Loved! ;)

Paul

Thanks Paul.
 

Pierac

New member
Interesting. Some see or consider Triune to be equal to the Trinity.

I'm having trouble finding the word trinity or even the word triune in our scriptures?

Can you help me find these words in scripture since they are So Monumental in the concept of salvation???

Wow, so strangely missing in our scriptures to be so utterly important???

:think:
Paul
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
I'm having trouble finding the word trinity or even the word triune in our scriptures?

Can you help me find these words in scripture since they are So Monumental in the concept of salvation???

Wow, so strangely missing in our scriptures to be so utterly important???

:think:
Paul
These words are not there and you know it.
 
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