Can a Christian lose their salvation
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
The things Peter taught on the day of Pentecost are what made me a Christian.
Turning from sin and being washed of past sins by the blood of Christ.
There are no other requirements, besides enduring faithfully until my end.
Why don't you think the following is the preaching of the cross ?..."Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
...
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Jesus' death and resurrection are both mentioned.
Answer the question.
Answer the question.
Are you are counting on salvation based on trusting Paul, without love for God or neighbor ?
Eeek.
I trust God has supplied all I need to remain faithful unto death.
Nobody will be judged for my behavior but me.
I'ld be wise to keep walking as Jesus walked.
What ?
You commanding me to actually do something for my salvation ?
What happened the to trust and belief without any corresponding actions that you think Paul preached?
I have, as sin is what I repented of.
It has been many years since my last lie.
I am glad you think that.
I am not going to respond, until you can trim it down some.
You are not a Christian, Hoping.
Christians are saved.
You admit you are not.
It was a message of condemnation, not of salvation.
Turn from believing that you can earn your salvation, and turn to believing in Christ's completed work.
AKA:
REPENT!
There is nothing YOU can do to earn your salvation, Hoping.
All YOU can do is trust in what Christ has done.
But not of trying to earn your salvation.
Stop trying to climb the rope, and trust in the one who has climbed the rope already to pull you to the top.
Liar.
You lied in the post you made yesterday at 9:52 PM, post #825.
Then why do you continue to make the accusation?
Bearing false witness is a sin, Hoping. Stop it.
There is nothing to trim down.
Most of my post is SCRIPTURE. Very little of it is my words.
If you have a problem with that, then you need to take it up with God.
Quit being stubborn, and respond, either in rebuttal of what I and scripture said, or in conceding that your position is wrong.
I am glad you won't be doing the judging on the last day.
As the wages of sin is death, (Rom 6:23),condemnation precedes salvation.
As the works of the Law were not a part of my conversion, I earned nothing.
Right.
But I, we, cannot illustrate my/our conversion to others without loving God with all my/our heart, soul, and might.
So there is in fact something I MUST DO.
There goes your entire POV.
God gave me the rope to climb, so I will climb it until the last beat of my heart.
Where is the lie in..."I have stopped sinning, thanks to the gift of repentance from sin, the gift of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Thanks be to God for rebirth from His seed." ?
What accusation ?
Then I won't be answering it.
It isn't necessary.
Wrong again.
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:2 - New King James Version
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
As it stands now, you will not be on the judging side, but the side being judged.
You DO NOT want to be there.
Again, the point is that Paul's gospel teaches the cross as a good thing.
Prior to Acts 8, the cross is a condemnation of the Jews and the Gentiles.
Yet you are still trying to earn your salvation.
Not what is being discussed.
Yes, as a RESPONSE to what God has done.
It is not in and of itself deserving of salvation, nor does it earn salvation. It is not meritorious.
You are making the same straw-man accusation Calvinists make.
Faith is not meritorious. It is required, but it does not, itself, earn you salvation.
You will never reach salvation by continuing to climb the rope, because it's impossible to climb the rope to the end.
The "I have stopped sinning" part.
You have not. Quit lying.
Quit deceiving yourself.
You know exactly which accusation, Hoping.
Don't play dumb.
Rather, it's not possible for you to answer it, not without contradicting scripture, or your own position.
All you can do is ignore it, because it defeats your entire system of beliefs.
Coward. Have the conviction of your beliefs to defend them.
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Body part
Peter was preaching to the nation of Israel.
Acts 2:14 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:14) ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Acts 2:22 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Confusion reigns with you. You're not alone.
None of that is the preaching of the cross as GOOD NEWS. It is a MURDER INDICTMENT.
Nowhere does Peter tell them that Jesus Christ died for their sins.
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Body part
I am trusting in Christ based on Paul's gospel.
The verse did include the word "saints".Wrong again.
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:2 - New King James Version
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?www.biblegateway.com
Do any saints not love God with all their heart, soul, and strength ?
Do any saints fail to love their neighbor as they love themselves ?
Those things are part of the "rope" you hold in disdain.
We'll see.
It was the effects of the cross that are the "good thing".
The cross was the instrument of Jesus' death.
Don't turn it into an idol.
I am loving God and neighbor.
Can we illustrate my/our conversion to others without loving God with all my/our heart, soul, and might ?
No.
Exactly.
If there is a lack of those things, it is the indication of the lack of conversion.
Do this...get that.
Repent of sin, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, endure faithfully until the end... get saved.
God put requirements in pace for salvation.
Obey and be saved.
If you want to call it meritorious or some other thing...fine.
Do this, get that.
Don't do this, don't get that.
Don't confuse obedience with worldly efforts designed to eradicate obedience to God.
As a reborn, repentant man, with the gift of the Holy Ghost, it is possible.
Your POV denies the effects of real faith.
My repentance from sin was true.
Had I not repented from sin, I wouldn't have receiver the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I have the gift.
Spell it out.
If you see an accusation in my posts, perhaps it is your conscience making you uncomfortable.
I have provided the parameters in which I will answer you.
I would hope you consider yourself among those who have been grafted into the branch. (Rom 11)
I don't believe your diagnosis.
That murder furnished us the way to righteousness
Crucifixion with Him, with the affections and lusts.
That is good news to those who want to serve God without fault.
Nowhere is it written, perhaps, but we only have a portion of the days events.
Did Jesus ever say He would die for our sins ?
I appreciate what Peter said in Acts 3:26..."Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."
I value the freedom from sin above what may or may not happen on the last day.
Doesn't he teach about walking in the Spirit instead of in the flesh? (Rom 8)
Doesn't Paul teach on freedom from sin ? (Rom 6, Gal 5)
Your answer makes me think that Paul does NOT teach on loving God and neighbor.
I know he does though.
"For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Rom 13:9-10)
Tunnel vision isn't conducive to Christian living.
You are so proud !
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Body part
That passage of the Bible is about the time before the body of Christ.
These articles can help you, if you read them: https://graceambassadors.com/search?q=romans+11&x=0&y=0#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=romans 11&gsc.page=1
That is your problem.
But that was not what Peter was preaching. Peter was trying to get Israel to repent of the murder and turn to Christ so that He would return and establish His kingdom.
You cannot find "sinless perfection of the believer in the body of Christ" anywhere in Paul's epistles. It's simple false.
So you think that God left out important details?
Show us.
Again, the YOU there is the nation of Israel.
Dream on...
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Body part
Absolutely! But Paul does not teach instant perfection.
Your brain does not work properly.
You poor lost soul.
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It's not just a simple black and white answer of yes or no.
We still deal with the flesh, as I mentioned in my post that you refuse to address for some strange reason.
All the time.
The "rope" in the analogy is the way to get to heaven.
You can either climb the rope, or you can let the one who already climbed the rope pull you to the end of it without having to climb it any more.
The rope is infinitely long.
You keep saying that, because your position doesn't allow you to know.
My position not only allows me to know whether I am saved or not, but it even GUARANTEES IT!
Again, Paul's gospel teaches the cross as good and necessary.
EVERY mention of the cross PRIOR to Paul, after the crucifixion, is a murder indictment.
Things that are different are not the same.
And how it is presented shows which dispensation is active.
Don't bear false witness against your neighbor.
You cannot love God by trying to earn your salvation.
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:1, Romans 4:2, Romans 4:3, Romans 4:4 - New King James Version
Abraham Justified by Faith - What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
Irrelevant. We're talking about how one is saved, not what one does AFTER one is saved.
Quit putting the cart before the horse.
Again, not what is being discussed.
Yes, God said "Believe and you will be saved."
Believing itself does nothing.
God is the one who made getting saved possible through His death, burial, and resurrection. God determined that in order for anyone to access that salvation, they must put their trust in Him.
Believe, and you will be saved
Repenting of sin will not net you salvation.
Nope.
That's a work.
"To him who works, his wages are not counted as grace, but as debt."
BELIEVE, and God will grace you out.
So, what tribe of Israel are you from, again?
"To him who works, his wages are not counted as grace, but as debt."
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.
Salvation of mankind has been achieved. But whether someone is saved is conditioned (iow, God has set the conditions for His applying that salvation to someone) on whether they have put their faith in Him.
Wrong.
"To him who works, his wages are not counted as grace, but as debt."
"By grace you have been saved."
I used meritorious for a reason, Hoping, because words mean things.
Meritorious means "deserving of reward or praise."
You, Hoping, are attempting to "endure to the end" so that, come judgement day, you "deserve" (aka, "a debt to be paid") to have your name written in the Book of Life.
No matter how you try to reword it to try to make it seem more palatable, to try to get around the scripture that clearly contradicts your beliefs, that is your position.
And it is, in fact, contrary to scripture.
All have sinned, have fallen short of the glory of God.
The wages of sin is death.
You, Hoping, deserve death, eternal separation from God because of your sins.
The law condemns you, because you have violated God's law.
Since you have already violated God's law, you WILL receive your just desserts.
Mercy and grace are two sides of the same coin.
Do this, DON'T get that. Mercy is not getting what you DO deserve. You deserve death. God has provided a way, not of works, but out of mercy, to have your sins paid for ("wages," "debt").
Don't do this, DO get that. Grace is getting something you DON'T deserve. You do not deserve to have eternal life. But by NOT working, and instead, placing your trust in God to save you, God will give you life.
The confused one here is you, since you think that whenever "works" are mentioned without it mentioning the Mosaic Law, it must automatically mean "keeping the Mosaic Law," when that's just not the case.
Under the current dispensation, you cannot be obedient to God if you have not first placed your trust in Him.
You keep trying to apply the house rules of the previous dispensation to the current.
Nope.
Trying to reach heaven, acquire eternal life, through the practicing of the law, is like trying to shoot a musket here on Earth to try to hit a target in the most distant star system.
It is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE.
YOU CANNOT obey enough to earn your salvation.
Paul says in Romans 3:
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3:20 - New King James Version
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The effects of real faith are that one is saved, and that a relationship between the one who believes and God is restored, making it possible for him to love God.
Your self-righteousness is showing.
You still live in your flesh, and as such, are subject to the desires of the flesh.
The gift of God is acquired by grace through faith, not of works, not of repentance from sin.
It is by putting your faith in the one who can save you.
You certainly have the "gift" of self-righteousness.
Or, I just don't appreciate you (as anyone would not) making ambiguous comments that could be interpreted as such.
Let your yes be yes, and your no be no.
If you have something to say, SAY IT, don't beat around the bush making (not so subtle) innuendos about our beliefs.
See below.
In what insane world do you exist in that a murder indictment against someone is "good news"?
In other words, "I like my doctrine that makes it seem like I am now sinlessly perfect, and that I am being a good person."
Who's position is truly accommodating sin, Hoping?
The one which recognizes that sin is still a problem in our lives, and tells its tenants to seek God? OR the one simply denies it happens, while being utterly self-righteous, not relying on God to save, but rather on one's own merits?
You were addressed in my post below.
That's rich, coming from someone who is so self-righteous he denies that commits sin!
----
Here, I'll compromise, because I really do want you to answer my challenges to your position.
I'll remove the Scripture from my post, and all the minor points that have nothing to do with the main thrust of my argument, so that you can see that it really is not very long, and that what makes it "long" is the fact that I'm literally quoting large passages of scripture to support my points.
However, I'm not going to edit my original post.
If you want to respond to the short post I made, then you'll need to quote it, and remove the portions that don't need to be responded to. No, that does not mean you get to pick and choose willy nilly what you get to respond to. It means that you need to respond to the direct points I made about your position.
. . .
There's nothing "bipolar" about it, Hoping.
No, I mean the accusation that you made against me when you said this:
Paul was addressing your accusation against me that I am somehow accommodating for sin. The passage is Paul's rebuttal to that accusation, and it's used by people like myself and others as a litmus test to see if we're teaching the right doctrine, because our doctrine SOUNDS like we're saying "it's ok to sin," when that's not what we teach.
His rebuttal to such an accusation completely undermines your position that Christians don't sin, because it PRESUPPOSES that Christians CAN and DO sin, in that the accuser is challenging what Paul is saying by asking if he is teaching that it's OK to sin, since we're under grace!
Paul's rebuttal is such that He CONDEMNS someone sinning after considering that they're under grace!
Since when has God forbidden something and it become impossible to do?
Thanks for making my point!
. . .
And sinners who have called upon the name of the Lord to be saved are SAVED from that death.
THAT'S HOW IT WORKS, HOPING!
. . .
No, you have to assume that. That is not stated anywhere in scripture.
. . .
"I am doing..."
You believe that you can do something to earn salvation.
Your faith is in your works, and not in Christ! You cannot earn salvation, Hoping.
[Ephesians 2:8-9]
Not if I'm dead to the law.
[Romans 7:1-6]
I am delivered from the law, having died to what I was held by, so that I should (SHOULD) serve in the newness of the Spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
SHOULD.
Not "will."
Certainly, as Paul says in verses 7-12, that I would not have known sin except through the law. As such, I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died, for sin deceived me and killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Notice what Paul said next, starting a new paragraph, speaking in present tense, and not some narrative tense that you've come up with to try to shoehorn your beliefs into the text:
Spoiler
Your "narrative" belief completely ignores the context in which he's framing what he says.
"Sin revived and I died when the commandment came."
"Sin WAS producing death in me through what is good."
"BUT NOW it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."
"In me nothing good dwells."
"if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me."
"I [am] the one who wills to do good."
"I delight in the law of God according to the inward man."
"I see another law in my members."
"So then (from here on, now that I've been delivered from this body of death by Jesus Christ our Lord, AKA "saved") with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."
I'm not serving two masters. I am serving God, while my flesh serves the law of sin.
. . .
And if one is saved (apart from works), righteousness is imputed to him, making him righteous.
[Romans 4:1-25]
Thus, a sinner can be made righteous through faith!
Again, Paul answered this accusation you're leveling against my position, that it somehow "allows more sin" because we're under grace. It doesn't.
[Romans 6:1-14]
I'm sorry you feel yourself unworthy of that holy Root.
He was trying to get them to turn from all sin.
You can find it in Rom 6:6-7, and Rom 8:1-4,9-11, 1 Cor 1:9, and 1 Cor 2:6, and 2 Cor 5:21, and Gal 5:24, and Eph 2:1-3, and 2 Tim 3:17, and Titus 1:15-16, and lots of other places too.
It would seem as if you just don't want to see it.
I think the writers were over whelmed by the days events.
I can't, as He never said it.
If you feel you are truly unworthy of God's promises, so be it.
I will grab all that is available to His servants.
Do you mean...Keep the faith ! ?