Can a Christian lose their salvation

[Gary K]

Why is God giving contradictory instructions such a problem for you?

Jesus gave the disciples different and contradictory instructions during His earthly ministry.

​

Luke 9:3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:3) And he said unto them, Take nothing for [your] journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.​

​

Luke 10:4 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:4) Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.​

​

Luke 22:35-36 (AKJV/PCE)​

(22:35) And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. (22:36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.​

That does not mean that some of His instruction cannot be contradictory at different times based on circumstances and goals.

Duh.

You've proven nothing.

Rom 4:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (4:2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. (4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ​

​

Jas 2:21-24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (2:22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (2:23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (2:24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. ​

​

They both quote Gen 15:6 and they give contradictory takes on it. One says faith only and one says faith and works. So which is it?

Why is it so important to me? Because I love and respect God. I don't like it when people slander Him

You completely misunderstand James.

James 2: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

You're reading your beliefs into James.

 

[Right Divider]

Why is it so important to me? Because I love and respect God.

I love and respect God, but do not try to dictate what He can and cannot do.

I don't like it when people slander Him

You are libeling me. And you don't know the difference between libel and slander (like all too many).

You completely misunderstand James.

James 2: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

You're reading your beliefs into James.

No, I am NOT reading my beliefs into James... that would actually be YOU!

Jas 2:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

That is NOT the what Paul teaches.

Rom 5:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (5:2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.​

​

Gal 3:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. ​

 

[Gary K]

Why is God giving contradictory instructions such a problem for you?

Jesus gave the disciples different and contradictory instructions during His earthly ministry.

​

Luke 9:3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(9:3) And he said unto them, Take nothing for [your] journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.​

​

Luke 10:4 (AKJV/PCE)​

(10:4) Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.​

​

Luke 22:35-36 (AKJV/PCE)​

(22:35) And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. (22:36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.​

That does not mean that some of His instruction cannot be contradictory at different times based on circumstances and goals.

Duh.

You've proven nothing.

Rom 4:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(4:1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (4:2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. (4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ​

​

Jas 2:21-24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (2:22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (2:23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (2:24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. ​

​

They both quote Gen 15:6 and they give contradictory takes on it. One says faith only and one says faith and works. So which is it?

Why is it so important to me? Because I love and respect God. I don't like it when people slander Him

You completely misunderstand James.

James 2: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

You're reading your beliefs into James.

I love and respect God, but do not try to dictate what He can and cannot do.

You are libeling me. And you don't know the difference between libel and slander (like all too many).

No, I am NOT reading my beliefs into James... that would actually be YOU!

Jas 2:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

That is NOT the what Paul teaches.

Rom 5:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (5:2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.​

​

Gal 3:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. ​

So you think James was teaching Catholicism before there was a Catholic.

 

[Right Divider]

Why is it so important to me? Because I love and respect God. I don't like it when people slander Him

Doubling down on your libel is not going to persuade anyone.

Also, learn the difference between libel and slander.

You completely misunderstand James.

No, that would be YOU!

James 2: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

You're reading your beliefs into James.

I notice how you ignore James' SUMMATION verse:

Jas 2:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

That is NOT the what Paul teaches.

Rom 5:1-2 (AKJV/PCE)​

(5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (5:2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.​

Gal 3:24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. ​

If you cannot see the clear difference there.... well that's your blindness problem.

So you think James was teaching Catholicism before there was a Catholic.

I'm not sure what that dumb comment was supposed to mean.

Are you not aware that the 12 apostles (and those associated with them, like James) are considered by the RCC to be the early Catholics?

 

[Idolater]

I'm not sure what that dumb comment was supposed to mean.

Are you not aware that the 12 apostles (and those associated with them, like James) are considered by the RCC to be the early Catholics?

Including Paul. He's more Catholic than the pope.

 

[Right Divider]

Including Paul. He's more Catholic than the pope.

Quite wrong, per your usual.

 

[Nick M]

James 2: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

That is rhetorical. James said he is saved by his works. Faith has more than one meaning. One definition is "allegiance to a duty", and that is what James is referring to.

 

[Lon]

Why is it so important to me? Because I love and respect God. I don't like it when people slander Him

The question is, does God ever give one person one direction, and another a different direction?

For instance, was Hosea told to marry a woman of ill-repute? Was Israel proper told not to do so? If so, THAT is an example of a 'contradiction' as that 'one person is told specifically one thing over and against what the rest are told not to do.' There was a reason Hosea was told to do something "contradictory" (probably getting hung up on the term?).

Another example: Jews were told to sacrifice in the temple, and Hebrews says Christians Jews are no longer to do that. "Contradictory" can be seen as an 'inconsistency' which is okay, but perhaps the word is what is hanging you up? Surely there is a 'difference' and maybe that's a better word than 'contradictory.'

Another example: Women are commanded different and even contradictory instructions from what men are told to do in scripture ala women wear a head covering, men should not.

Contradictory by definition, can mean "to show to be untrue" and that isn't what is meant here in thread. If you think "different instructions" it might further the thread along.

 

[Gary K]

The question is, does God ever give one person one direction, and another a different direction?

For instance, was Hosea told to marry a woman of ill-repute? Was Israel proper told not to do so? If so, THAT is an example of a 'contradiction' as that 'one person is told specifically one thing over and against what the rest are told not to do.' There was a reason Hosea was told to do something "contradictory" (probably getting hung up on the term?).

Another example: Jews were told to sacrifice in the temple, and Hebrews says Christians Jews are no longer to do that. "Contradictory" can be seen as an 'inconsistency' which is okay, but perhaps the word is what is hanging you up? Surely there is a 'difference' and maybe that's a better word than 'contradictory.'

Another example: Women are commanded different and even contradictory instructions from what men are told to do in scripture ala women wear a head covering, men should not.

Contradictory by definition, can mean "to show to be untrue" and that isn't what is meant here in thread. If you think "different instructions" it might further the thread along.

God had a very specific purpose in mind with His instructions to Hosea.

Hosea 1: 2 The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the Lord.
3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
4 And the Lord said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.*n1
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 ¶And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Lo–ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.*n2*n3*n4

Has he ever done that again or before? We have no evidence of that. God's instructions to Hosea were an object lesson to the nation of Israel, but even then He didn't violate His own law. He didn't instruct Hosea to cheat on his wife after he married her.

Hosea 3: 1 Then said the Lord unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the Lord toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.*n1
2 So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:*n2
3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:*n3
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

 

[Nick M]

The question is, does God ever give one person one direction, and another a different direction?

It seems so. Before and after the flood dietary directions are very different. Then Israel was told something else yet.

 

[Gary K]

It seems so. Before and after the flood dietary directions are very different. Then Israel was told something else yet.

The concept of clean and unclean was known before the children of Israel.

Genesis 7: 1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female

God told Noah to take the clean animals by seven pairs and the unclean animals by a pair. Why? So Noah and his family would have something to eat after the flood before they could plant seeds and eat the harvest of those seeds without the clean beasts going extinct.

It's just common sense.

 

[Lon]

God had a very specific purpose in mind with His instructions to Hosea.

Yep

Has he ever done that again or before?

Even 'if' an exception (did I post enough to suggest it isn't?), it yet illustrates that God did/does give 'different' (I think a little less confusing than 'contradictory' for discussion?) directions to different people. Another example: Isaac. Definitely an enigma to ask anybody to offer up their son in death BUT necessary for what God was going to do with His own Son and promise coming through Abraham. I used to just cringe and feel VERY uncomfortable reading that passage until I understood so many years back that it was a picture of what Christ was going to do and how that blessing for all nations was going to come through Abraham.

We have no evidence of that. God's instructions to Hosea were an object lesson to the nation of Israel, but even then He didn't violate His own law. He didn't instruct Hosea to cheat on his wife after he married her.

Agree, and not the point. The point rather is whether God is ever 'contradictory' as I entered the conversation. I'd have been completely on page with you a few years passed in saying "No! Surely not!" Today? "Well, not every aspect of the term 'contradictory' but rather 'different.' Thus is my endeavor, just and as it seems you agree and concede, as you've described as well. At least, you are describing 'difference' (contradictory for lack of perhaps a better term like 'different'), thus seem to both grasp and agree with the original statement, if not the term 'contradictory.' If so, then perhaps the thread is served with "okay" and "but an accurate descriptor that is is better..." At any rate :e4e: (salutation if it doesn't render) :cheers:

 

[Nick M]

The concept of clean and unclean was known before the children of Israel.

Do you know what logical fallacy this is? If you want to engage, you can't do this.

 

[Nick M]

This is evidence of the tangent to the topic.

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

And after the flood

Genesis 9

So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. 3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

And then what he told Israel. Note he says "unclean TO YOU". Words mean things.

Leviticus 11

1Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: 3 Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. 4 Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you;

You wanting them to be the same doesn't make them the same. Why do you argue against what scripture clearly states? This is what the RCC, Islam, Mormons, Jehova's Witness all do. They do it by saying the Bible is corrupt, incomplete, nor not authority.

 

[Gary K]

Do you know what logical fallacy this is? If you want to engage, you can't do this.

Not according to scripture it isn't. I quoted Genesis where God told Noah to take the clean animals by seven pairs into the ark, and the unclean by a single pair. What you're saying is that God can't adapt to circumstances in a world of sin even to keep the human race from becoming extinct.

Of course God told the Israelites that the unclean/clean laws were for them. They were surrounded by pagans who paid no attention to those laws.

It seems to me you haven't thought this through very well.

 

[Nick M]

What you're saying is that God can't adapt to circumstances

No, we are saying he does adapt and deals with people differently. Nice misdirection. You haven't answered about James yet, who rhetorically states James was saved by offering his son. And that faith means 2 things for us in the Bible, allegiance to duty, and belief. James is saying his allegiance to his duty was completed by his works. Paul says the opposite. Note Paul refers to circumcision and the covenant, you keep leaving out.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

If you do good thinking you will please God he will count it against you in the dispensation of grace.

 

[Nick M]

When we get born again or saved, we receive the gift of holy spirit. This gift completes us as God designed us to be.

Born again (resurrected Ezekiel 37 John 3) only happen if one is saved, past tense. We are baptized BY the Holy Spirit into Christ when we believe and confess. The last part is true, but doesn't matter or line up with your mumbo-jumbo. We are complete in him.

 

[Nick M]

Before and after the flood dietary directions are very different. Then Israel was told something else yet.

The concept of clean and unclean was known before the children of Israel.

That isn't what I said. I said dietary directions, what food people are to eat. There were no Israelites in Genesis 9 when he says man can eat everything that moves, just cook it first.

What you're saying is that God can't adapt to circumstances

You have that backwards. We are saying God changes how he deals with people. You said he didn't, while saying I said he didn't. You didn't think this through very well.

I didn't read most of this thread which is the same thing it always is. Do you believe a Christian can lose salvation? I follow the Bible, and in the New Testament, James, Peter, and the rest of the Jews are not called Christian. Peter, like all others in the "New Testament" differentiate between the 2 groups.

 

[Right Divider]

Of course God told the Israelites that the unclean/clean laws were for them. They were surrounded by pagans who paid no attention to those laws.

Why would they "pay attention" to laws that they were not given?

It seems to me you haven't thought this through very well.

 

[Lon]

"No True Scotsman!"

Simply because:

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.

Very clear, if they do, they weren't. This particular scripture was the nail in the proverbial coffin for me for a definitive answer "no, cannot lose."