Can a Christian lose their salvation

[7djengo7]

So long.

Heard that before. From you.

 

[Sherman]

I will demonstrate on how to debate the sinless perfectionism argument since I am not a fan of that perspective. Your more scholarly types will call it Pelagianism. This is what the scripture has to say about it.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:8-10

In good debating you attack the argument, not the debater.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Really? Is that how someone gets you to listen to them by insulting you many times? That causes you to listen closely to them and carefully consider what they say? Or does it turn you off?

Jesus says (paraphrasing), "I could wish you were cold or hot. If you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

He also says, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten."

Do you think it unChristlike to rebuke those who are teaching falsehoods, being lukewarm?

 

[Gary K]

Jesus says (paraphrasing), "I could wish you were cold or hot. If you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

He also says, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten."

Do you think it unChristlike to rebuke those who are teaching falsehoods, being lukewarm?

Jesus is one Person. We are another. We are not God. Who do we think we are? Do we even imagine we are God? Do we think we can read minds like Jesus did? I don't know about you, but I know I can't.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jesus is one Person. We are another. We are not God. Who do we think we are? Do we even imagine we are God? Do we think we can read minds like Jesus did? I don't know about you, but I know I can't.

Was Elijah wrong for mocking the prophets of Baal?

 

[7djengo7]

That includes non Christians as we know they are deceived.

VS​

Do we think we can read minds like Jesus did? I don't know about you, but I know I can't.

Out of the one side of your mouth, you say you know certain people are deceived, whereas, out of the other side of your mouth, you say you can't know that they are deceived.

 

[7djengo7]

You'd consider calling someone who distributes poison, "poison distributor", to be a vicious thing to do?

Yes.

The fact that you can answer "Yes" to that question shows that you're not going to get any rationally-thinking person to take you seriously whenever you whine that this or that thing you don't like to hear is an "insult". You're not right in the head if you really think that to call someone who distributes poison, "poison distributor", is a vicious thing to do.

 

[Gary K]

Was Elijah wrong for mocking the prophets of Baal?

So now you're equating Elijah and Jesus? I wouldn't equate myself with Elijah. He was a prophet I'm not. Are you?

 

[7djengo7]

Jesus is one Person. We are another. We are not God.

According to your claim, no one can speak derogatorily of wrongdoers/wrongthinkers, except God. @JudgeRightly gave an example of someone who is not God speaking derogatorily of wrongdoers/wrongthinkers, showing that your claim is false:

Was Elijah wrong for mocking the prophets of Baal?

Instead of acknowledging that he proved you wrong in your claim, you immediately attack a straw man:

So now you're equating Elijah and Jesus?

In what way, according to your imagination, is @JudgeRightly "equating Elijah and Jesus"?

I wouldn't equate myself with Elijah.

No one asked.

He was a prophet I'm not.

No one asked.

Are you?

What an irrelevant thing for you to say.

 

[Hoping]

Calling a broken shovel a broken shovel is a good thing.

Hoping is not a Christian. He is not saved. He claims to be sinless after "converting" to being a follower of Christ, and he places his trust in his ability to keep a law rather than in Christ's completed work on the cross.



Sometimes, the most effective way to get someone to wake up from their foolishness is to tell them they're being a fool directly and in the most blunt manner possible.

Do you really think that living in accordance to God is foolishness ?

Which is why what he says is so dangerous, because they give the appearance of wisdom.

Make no mistake, he is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[Hoping]

I will demonstrate on how to debate the sinless perfectionism argument since I am not a fan of that perspective. Your more scholarly types will call it Pelagianism. This is what the scripture has to say about it.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. - 1 John 1:8-10

In good debating you attack the argument, not the debater.

Hey there Sherman.
If we really can never say we have no sin, wouldn't that make Acts 2:38 a lie ?..."for the remission of sins"
And Rom 3:25 ?..."for the remission of sins that are past"
And 1 John 1:7 also a lie ?..."and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
And 1 John 1:9 also a lie ?..."and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Of course it behooves us to use the tools God supplies to remain in "the light", or perish.

 

[Gary K]

Hey there Sherman.
If we really can never say we have no sin, wouldn't that make Acts 2:38 a lie ?..."for the remission of sins"
And Rom 3:25 ?..."for the remission of sins that are past"
And 1 John 1:7 also a lie ?..."and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
And 1 John 1:9 also a lie ?..."and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Of course it behooves us to use the tools God supplies to remain in "the light", or perish.

Here's where I disagree with you. Remission means the cancellation of a debt or charge against us, or a diminution of a problem. It doesn't mean the complete obliteration of a problem.

1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Corruption is caused by sin. It's not just a physical thing caused by death so to read it in just one meaning of the word is a mistake. Especially when the most common meaning of the word is speaking to moral issues.

There is a reason Paul identifies sin as being found in our bodies, Galatians 5 speaks to the sins of the flesh. And then speaks to the fruit of the Spirit on overcoming sin. But that doesn't remove our power of choice. We can still choose to sin under the power of a temptation. As long as the devil is here to tempt us, and we have our mortal sinful bodies, we are still capable of sinning. Look at Peter's example of hypocrisy. He had ample evidence that he was not to discriminate against Gentiles but he did anyway. To get him to stop Paul had to call him on it. And why did Peter do it? He was afraid of being the subject of scorn by those who had come from Jerusalem who still weren't convinced the Gentiles weren't to be treated the same way they had always treated the Gentiles.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So now you're equating Elijah and Jesus?

Nope.

You said:

Jesus is one Person. We are another. We are not God. Who do we think we are? Do we even imagine we are God? Do we think we can read minds like Jesus did? I don't know about you, but I know I can't.

In response to me asking you "Do you think it unChristlike to rebuke those who are teaching falsehoods, being lukewarm?"

As if to say "Only God can rebuke those who are teaching falsehoods or who are lukewarm (and be righteous)."

I showed you a righteous human being doing so, which disproves your claim of "only God can (and be righteous)."

I wouldn't equate myself with Elijah.

I would.

For James says:

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. (James 5:17-18)

"Elijah was a man with a nature like ours..." He was a human being.

He rebuked the prophets of Baal, and mocked them for having an impotent god.

He was a prophet I'm not. Are you?

Prophet just means "representative of God, one who speaks the words of God."

If you don't think you're a representative of God, or one who preaches the words of God, then I'm not going to argue with you, I'm going to agree with you.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Do you really think that living in accordance to God is foolishness?

Living knowing that I am saved regardless of what I do or do not do is definitely not foolishness.

Thinking that you are somehow incapable of committing further sin, is.

 

[Gary K]

Nope.

You said:



In response to me asking you "Do you think it unChristlike to rebuke those who are teaching falsehoods, being lukewarm?"

As if to say "Only God can rebuke those who are teaching falsehoods or who are lukewarm (and be righteous)."

I showed you a righteous human being doing so, which disproves your claim of "only God can (and be righteous)."



I would.

For James says:

Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit. (James 5:17-18)

"Elijah was a man with a nature like ours..." He was a human being.

He rebuked the prophets of Baal, and mocked them for having an impotent god.



Prophet just means "representative of God, one who speaks the words of God."

If you don't think you're a representative of God, or one who preaches the words of God, then I'm not going to argue with you, I'm going to agree with you.

All I can say to that is you and I cannot read minds and motives. Jesus could and does, His example is the one I will follow but in my own sphere which is infintely lower than His. You want to feel like you're capable of reading hearts and minds have at it, but I will assure you that you'll drive people away from Christianity. If that's your desire go ahead, I just don't think that's a Christian motive.

 

[Idolater]

I disagree with Hoping about his beliefs, but do you really think your ad hominem attacks will get him to change his mind? Do you really think logical fallacies are a reasonable form of argumentation?

If you're not attempting to "steel man" your opponents (comp. with straw man) you are not arguing in good faith, your mind is shut.

After reading the attacks on Hoping I can say they do more to convince me you are wrong than that he is as he shows far more patience and kindness than you do. His actions are far more Christian than yours.

@Hoping doesn't "steel man" his opponents either.

 

[Gary K]

If you're not attempting to "steel man" your opponents (comp. with straw man) you are not arguing in good faith, your mind is shut.


@Hoping doesn't "steel man" his opponents either.

No he doesn't, thus my comments. Thanks for standing up for him.

 

[7djengo7]

All I can say to that is you and I cannot read minds and motives. Jesus could and does,

We don't, I think, find your phrases, "read minds" and "read motives" in the Bible, do we? So, could you tell us exactly what you mean by them--precisely what it would be for someone to "read someone's mind/motives"?

 

[Hoping]

Here's where I disagree with you. Remission means the cancellation of a debt or charge against us, or a diminution of a problem. It doesn't mean the complete obliteration of a problem.

I agree, but with the baptism that washes away our past sins comes another gift.
The destruction of the old fleshly oriented man, (Rom 6:6), and being raised with Christ to spiritually walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
With the end of the old us comes the rebirth of the man reborn from God's seed.
God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil. (1 John 3:9-10)

Corruption is caused by sin.

If Jesus, a non-sinner, had lived to 70 years of age, his body would have aged and worn out too.
Our own sin is not the reason for the vessel's aging and breaking down. (That is the corruption Paul refers to in 2 Cor 15:54)

It's not just a physical thing caused by death so to read it in just one meaning of the word is a mistake. Especially when the most common meaning of the word is speaking to moral issues.

Is the word you refer to "corruption" ?

There is a reason Paul identifies sin as being found in our bodies,

Not our bodies.

Galatians 5 speaks to the sins of the flesh. And then speaks to the fruit of the Spirit on overcoming sin. But that doesn't remove our power of choice. We can still choose to sin under the power of a temptation.

Agreed.
I rejoice in the fact of rebirth from God's seed and the new divine nature given to the truly repentant.
Those whose repentance is found false are not reborn of God's seed.
Temptations will not end till our vessel fades away.
But we have the power to resist the devil. (James 4:7)

As long as the devil is here to tempt us, and we have our mortal sinful bodies,

If your body has been washed of sin by the blood of Christ, and reborn of God's seed, there is no more sin in it.
Even non-Christians can't blame their hands, eyes, or feet for their sins.

we are still capable of sinning.

Don't allow a capability to become a reality.
We are equipt to maintain holy lives by God Himself.

Look at Peter's example of hypocrisy. He had ample evidence that he was not to discriminate against Gentiles but he did anyway. To get him to stop Paul had to call him on it. And why did Peter do it? He was afraid of being the subject of scorn by those who had come from Jerusalem who still weren't convinced the Gentiles weren't to be treated the same way they had always treated the Gentiles.

Was it hypocrisy or condescension to the visiting Jews ?
Do you offer liquor to visiting Morman boys ?
Peter's fault was not emphasizing the likenesses between the Jews and Gentiles and instead focusing on unrealistic differences.

Regarding 1 John 1, I want you to see that verse 6, and 8 and 10, were addressed to those who walk in darkness-sin.
Sinners cannot say they have no sin.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 refer to those who walk in the light-God.
As there is no sin in God, (v5), neither can there be sin in those who walk "in God" (v7).

 

[Hoping]

Living knowing that I am saved regardless of what I do or do not do is definitely not foolishness.

We disagree on that.

Thinking that you are somehow incapable of committing further sin, is.

Our capabilities are not actualities.
"Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
Sin is the fruit of the devil's seed. (1 John 3:9-10)