Is it heretical in saying that only a specific sect of people will be saved?
Calvinism
- Thread starter Bright Raven
- Start date
Not sure it is heretical, although I do not believe anyone should make such a judgement. My belief is we all start out in life with an equal chance for salvation. I know this is not what Calvinists believe, yet I doubt anyone of full understanding of theology will say there is any individual who they know is not saved, and it may be, to say such, is heretical.
Dialogos
Well-known member
Calvinists believe that only those who will believe the gospel will be saved.
Do you consider that heretical?
Dialogos
Well-known member
I used to believe that as well, until a very patient Calvinist asked me how I could substantiate that a man born in what is now modern day Panama in 2 A.D., who lived his whole life never knowing about Jesus, got an equal chance for salvation as the Apostle Paul, for whom Jesus made a post accession appearance to convert.
Can you tell us how the ancient Panamanian and Paul got an equal chance for salvation?
iouae
Well-known member
Rev 20:5 speaks of the "rest of the dead" living after the Millennium.
I believe that in the 8M God resurrects all who have never heard of Jesus to hear the word of the Lord.
Ezek 37 speaks of bones coming together in a resurrection to hear the word of the Lord. I believe this is expanding on Rev 20:5.
Dialogos
Well-known member
If you believe this, it isn't because the bible tells you so.
Rev 20 says nothing whatsoever of this. What that chapter does say is that they will be judged according to what they have done. Its a judgment of works, which, as Paul consistently points out, won't get you into heaven.
And if you allow that passage to speak for itself you will realize that God gives the interpretation of that vision so that we don't have to make one up.iouae said:
Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.' Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." (Ezekiel 37:11-14 ESV)
God says exactly who the dries bones represent.
This passage isn't about those who didn't have the testimony of God, it was about those who did and rejected. Israel wasn't cut off because they never heard about God's revelation, they were cut off because they did hear and rejected His revelation.
This passage says exactly the opposite of what you are trying to make it say. You want this passage to be about those who have never heard, those who never got a chance to hear about God. The passage tells us that it is about those who did hear and rejected.
You believe this in error my friend.iouae said:
Bradley D
Well-known member
I cannot tell who will be saved. I see only the outer person. God sees the inner. I do not believe that God decided who would be saved and who would not before creation. When God made Adam he was good until he sinned.
And as for the Gentiles who did not know of God or Christ. They had a God given conscience.
"They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them" (Romans 2:15).
And as for the Gentiles who did not know of God or Christ. They had a God given conscience.
"They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them" (Romans 2:15).
Most Calvinists are idolaters that have believed in a ''higher doctrine'' to save them. They are also preachers of the necessity of keeping the law so they miss out on the true peace that is by grace. Keeping the sabbath holy is the most important thing in their miserable existence.
A Calvinist usually passes through a couple or few denominations as he marches down the broad way.
I once had an ardent desire to meet a man who was born physically blind and I have had my wish. I would now like to meet a Calvinist who has been truly converted.
Breathe
New member
In my own opinion - which, admittedly, is not that of an expert or scholar - I feel that it all comes down to whether you believe that God's foreknowledge is the same as predestination. I happen to believe it is, and that since God knows who will be saved, they have been destined by God to be such. But I don't know who those people are, so I am to share the Gospel with all.
(I am what happens when a Southern Baptist develops doubts about free will.
)
(I am what happens when a Southern Baptist develops doubts about free will.
)
we don't know what calvinists believe
they have corrupted the language
they don't believe in depravity
they believe in total depravity
they don't believe in election
they believe in unconditional election
they don't believe in predestination
they believe in double predestination
they believe in nonsense
Dialogos
Well-known member
I'm a Calvinist, if you have a question, feel free to ask.
Also, Lon, AMR, Cedarbay and others are also just as qualfied to answer your questions.
There is no need to guess regarding what Calvinists believe in general.
I've a hunch you probably misunderstand what is meant by total depravity.Chrysostom said:
Total depravity doesn't mean that we are all as bad as we could possibly be. Total depravity means that there is no part of the human condition that is untouched by the affects of the fall. We sin in all aspects of our humanity. Consequently, we beleive that man, in his flesh cannot respond to God apart from the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Now, tell us what about this you find objectionable...
Right, we are monergists not synergists. We believe God alone does the saving and that the reason God chose any of us has nothing to do with how good we are or how good a chooser we might be.Chrysostom said:
No, no we don't.Chrysostom said:
Not mainline Calvinists anyway.
Hyper-Calvinists do, but I'd say that most Calvinists here don't.
I don't, in any case.
Dialogos
Well-known member
Please explain, I know that many on this site tolerate bald accusations absent any substantiation but I don't.
Truster said:
This is false. Do you want me to give you a list of modern Calvinists who disprove this statement?
I'm not sure how you would know this or why it would be relevant.Truster said:
Truster said:
That's a very charitable thing to say about people you don't know....
musterion
Well-known member
If they say that only those who choose to believe the saving Gospel will be saved, then that's just Bible truth.
If they say God, before creation, made the decision on who would and wouldn't be able to believe and be saved, and that His decision cannot be changed, then it's not just heretical but blasphemous because it denies the saving Gospel which promises that all, without distinction, may be saved.
why don't you call yourself a calvinist in your profile?
why do others say reformed and not calvinist?
I understand total
I understand depravity
so
why do you all put those words together
and
then suggest that total depravity isn't really total depravity?
believing in the gospel is a condition
so
can you clear this up?
is it we or I?
so what is predestination?
and
how is unconditional election not predestination?
I find it simultaneously fascinating and disgusting that Calvinists find the same solution for almost any doctrinal or philosophical problem that Christianity might face. That solution being that God is not just and that it is foolish for us to expect otherwise.
The answer, "I don't know." or any form of it seems outside their cognitive ability.
There is no such thing as a person who has an excuse. Romans 1 makes this abundantly clear, but at the bottom of this issue of what God is going to do with those who have never heard the gospel is the answer, "We do not know."
What we do know is that God is just and that He cannot be otherwise and that therefore all mankind will be ultimately dealt with in a manner that is just. (All Calvinists will claim agreement with this statement but watch out! They've changed the meaning of the word 'justice'.)
The Calvinist couldn't care less about those untouched by the gospel because they believe that God predestined them to be untouched by it. So it isn't their fault if someone goes unevangelized, it God's. God predestined them to be evil, God predestined them to be ignorant, God predestined them to burn in Hell forever. Predestination is the catch all trash heap for anything God does that seems unjust to us poor stupid human beings.
If there is heresy touching the issue of the unevangelized, you find it in the Cannons of Dort and the Westminster Confession of Faith and in the mouths of virtually every Calvinist I've ever come across.
Resting in Him,
Clete
The answer, "I don't know." or any form of it seems outside their cognitive ability.
There is no such thing as a person who has an excuse. Romans 1 makes this abundantly clear, but at the bottom of this issue of what God is going to do with those who have never heard the gospel is the answer, "We do not know."
What we do know is that God is just and that He cannot be otherwise and that therefore all mankind will be ultimately dealt with in a manner that is just. (All Calvinists will claim agreement with this statement but watch out! They've changed the meaning of the word 'justice'.)
The Calvinist couldn't care less about those untouched by the gospel because they believe that God predestined them to be untouched by it. So it isn't their fault if someone goes unevangelized, it God's. God predestined them to be evil, God predestined them to be ignorant, God predestined them to burn in Hell forever. Predestination is the catch all trash heap for anything God does that seems unjust to us poor stupid human beings.
If there is heresy touching the issue of the unevangelized, you find it in the Cannons of Dort and the Westminster Confession of Faith and in the mouths of virtually every Calvinist I've ever come across.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Because they do not like Calvin!
Have you read any history about John Calvin?
If the books and commentaries that Calvin wrote was all there was for us to know about John Calvin then they'd have no problem with the label because there's hardly a sentence in any of his writings that any of them with disagree with.
But John Calvin was a terrible human being - terrible! I mean, really bad.
As a result, they avoid (legitimately) 'guilt by association' arguments by distancing themselves from the man who formalized their doctrine. The problem is now that they've taken to distancing themselves from Calvin to avoid having to deal with the doctrines the Calvin taught, which taken together, unavoidably result in what is commonly called "double predestination", a doctrine which they commonly deny believing in. What they do not deny are all the individual doctrines that compose "double predestination". I don't understand how they manage to compartmentalize the premises from their conclusion but then again, they are openly and even proactively irrational and so I suppose I shouldn't expect them to make sense.
Resting in Him,
Clete