Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Nanja said:
The scriptures I quote are indeed God's Words!
Click to expand...

The scriptures are God's word but you cannot assume from that that just quoting them renders the correct interpretation. For example, you evidently misunderstood the issues Paul was dealing with in Galatians. If you misunderstand the scriptures and then make a false report about them the fault lies with you not the Bible.
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
Shasta said:
The scriptures are God's word but you cannot assume from that that just quoting them renders the correct interpretation.
Click to expand...


Understanding of the scriptures and their proper interpretation is dependent upon being Born of the Spirit: Being revealed by the Spirit to God-given Faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.

Rom. 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


1 Cor. 2:12-14
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Nanja said:
Understanding of the scriptures and their proper interpretation is dependent upon being Born of the Spirit: Being revealed by the Spirit to God-given Faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.

Rom. 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


1 Cor. 2:12-14
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Click to expand...

So, basically, anyone who disagrees with you is simply not born again. True Christians can only be found in the camp of those who believe as you and your Church does. Gnostics in the early centuries of Christianity had the same attitude. They believed they had special revelation knowledge about what the scriptures meant. They believed this knowledge was hidden from everyone else because they were spiritual whereas other people were "carnal" and "the carnal mind does not receive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned." Because this statement comes from scripture it sounds spiritual but in debate it amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem argument.

There ARE certain basic truths which a person must believe if they are to be authentic believers but these concern such matters as the nature of God and the Son, the unique relationship that exists between Father and Son, and the redemptive work that was accomplished by Jesus through His death, resurrection and ascension. I do not remember any scripture, or any creed that defines authentic believers as those who hold to the teachings of TULIP. As a matter of fact, the Early Church explicitly denounced predeterminism as a pagan belief.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Shasta said:
So, basically, anyone who disagrees with you is simply not born again. True Christians can only be found in the camp of those who believe as you and your Church does. Gnostics in the early centuries of Christianity had the same attitude. They believed they had special revelation knowledge about what the scriptures meant. They believed this knowledge was hidden from everyone else because they were spiritual whereas other people were "carnal" and "the carnal mind does not receive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned." Because this statement comes from scripture it sounds spiritual but in debate it amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem argument.

There ARE certain basic truths which a person must believe if they are to be authentic believers but these concern such matters as the nature of God and the Son, the unique relationship that exists between Father and Son, and the redemptive work that was accomplished by Jesus through His death, resurrection and ascension. I do not remember any scripture, or any creed that defines authentic believers as those who hold to the teachings of TULIP. As a matter of fact, the Early Church explicitly denounced predeterminism as a pagan belief.
Click to expand...

Invalid comments!
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Robert Pate said:
Anyone that believes that they must be saved to get saved, has already proved that they are one french fry short of a happy meal. :kookoo:
Click to expand...

Nang and her ilk, believe that one must first be regenerated before receiving saving faith. That's the philosophy of "putting the horse before the cart." Calvinism is a counterfeit doctrine used by Satan in order to "cover up" the one true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
Eagles Wings

Eagles Wings

New member
Decades before I had read anything of Reformed doctrine, Covenant Theology, Eschatology, etc., I knew without a shadow of a doubt that the ONLY reason I had been given faith to believe, was because the Holy Spirit opened my mind and heart to Christ.

Election, regeneration, justification, sanctification are ALL of Christ. He is the Benefactor.
 
Angel4Truth

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Robert Pate said:
Anyone that believes that they must be saved to get saved, has already proved that they are one french fry short of a happy meal. :kookoo:
Click to expand...

You don't understand it because you deny the Omniscience of God even though His word says it clearly:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Angel4Truth said:
You don't understand it because you deny the Omniscience of God even though His word says it clearly:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will
Click to expand...


I under stand it completely.

I am afraid that you are the one that is in the dark. if God predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell before the foundation of the world, that would make him unjust. It is not humanly possible to have faith in a God that predestinates people to hell before they are born. That doctrine is unbelievable.

Before the foundation of the world God chose Jesus Christ to be the savior of the world, Ephesians 1:4.

Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity. We have been chosen in him, Ephesians 1:5.

Jesus by his life, death and resurrection makes us accepted in the beloved, Ephesians 1:6.
 
Angel4Truth

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
Robert Pate said:
if God predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell before the foundation of the world, that would make him unjust.
Click to expand...

How would it make Him unjust, for knowing what we will do beforehand?

The problem here is yours, scripture clearly states that is exactly what He does.

You tell us what this means- break it down since you deny its clear language:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

Well-known member
Shasta said:
We can see here that it was the arrogance of Edom that eventually caused them to be judged. They were not condemned because of some prenatal ill will on the part of God. Both God's justice and his patience with this nation is evident, without having to rely on a belief in the pre-existence of soul an idea that was condemned as heretical by the early Church.

Grace and peace
Click to expand...

Edom as the symbol for the non-elect, that is specifically those who are condemned already because they have not believed on His name caused their own condemnation by their disbelief in the Christ which brought the destruction of their nation and themselves at the final judgment. John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. If they are condemned already when did they receive this condemnation? And surely they received it due to a rejection of His name (the attributes of the Divine Saviour) and not for not hearing about His name.


Colossians 1:23 ...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. refers to a gospel that has already been preached to every creature under heaven implying both that there was no new creation who has not heard the preaching of the gospel and also that all humans of all time have already heard the preaching. Since we know that the gospel has not been preached in all nations in all time on earth I accept the necessity that this preaching was before we were sown into the earth by our respective fathers, the Son of Man or the devil, Matt 13:36-39, and it was probably at this time some did not believe on, did not put their trust/faith in His name as their saviour and become condemned already when they are sown into the earth as tares, Satan's angels the goats. From the moment of their rejection of HIS Son as their saviour, they became the wicked ones, the illegitimate children He hates.

Yes Church politics did indeed lead the early church to condemn pre-existence in favour of the blasphemy that we are born sinners because GOD created us sinners by having us born into Adam's blood line by which we inherited his sin. GOD is holy and will not create evil by any method at all and if we are evil then we are evil by our own free will decision to rebel against GOD's goodness. And if we are born evil then our free will decision to be evil happened before our birth.

But the so called 'fathers' were also happy to define their GOD as omniscient with the pagan Greek definition that leads directly to the blasphemy that GOD knew before they were created who would end in hell but created them anyway. As two of the building blocks of our understanding of GOD's creation these blasphemies are totally onerous and come to us from the same place.

Grace and peace
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top