Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

[Crucible]

God WANTS ALL to be saved.
God draws all.
MANY ARE CALLED and FEW are CHOSEN.
God chooses those who believe and obey Him.
Jesus tells us what to do to get saved and to stay saved.

You're not saying anything that goes against Calvinism :idunno:

Right there in that line 'many are called, few are chosen', there is God's Sovereign Election.

 

[God's Truth]

You're not saying anything that goes against Calvinism :idunno:

Right there in that line 'many are called, few are chosen', there is God's Sovereign Election.

We have to believe and obey to be saved.

Calvinists say, "No, we cannot, save us first."

 

[Nanja]

That scripture is about the ENEMY GENTILES.

The Gentiles were enemies because they did not get circumcised and come into the Covenant with God.

God saved them WHILE THEY were UNCIRCUMCISED and did NOT require it of them before He would save them.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.


You cannot be born of God unless you please Him.
That scripture is about those who ONLY WANT TO PLEASE THEIR FLESH. Not all only want to please their flesh.


You were taught to misunderstand the filthy rag scripture.

How do you EVER get that obeying God is as a filthy rag?!

The Jews who had to do a righteous act of giving a sin offering, which included offering BLOOD, God did not like it that they would sin then give a sin offering and not really be sorry for their sins; that made the blood offering as a menstrual bloody rag offering. Not being truly sorry for the sin is what made the righteous act of sacrificing animals for their blood as a filthy rag.


Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


Our righteous act of FAITH in Jesus is a filthy rag if we do not OBEY HIM.

False gospel of works!

 

[God's Truth]

False gospel of works!

Really? Is that your defense to my carefully explained reply to you?

Don't you know that mere denial means nothing in the way of defense?

 

[Crucible]

We have to believe and obey to be saved.

Calvinists say, "No, we cannot, save us first."

People believe according as God's Providence ordains.

It doesn't matter how you all try to spin it, you can't beat Calvinism.

You're just beating around the bush trying to deny the inevitable :chuckle:

 

[God's Truth]

People believe according as God's Providence ordains.

It doesn't matter how you all try to spin it, you can't beat Calvinism.

You're just beating around the bush trying to deny the inevitable :chuckle:

What Calvinism teaches is NOWHERE in the Bible.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

WE MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO HAVE FAITH.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul is going to open their eyes by preaching to them.


Read what Paul says in Romans 16:25-27. Now to him who is able to ESTABLISH YOU BY MY GOSPEL AND THE PROCLAMATION OF JESUS CHRIST, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and MADE KNOWN THROUGH THE PROPHETIC WRITINGS by the command of the eternal God, SO THAT ALL NATIONS MIGHT BELIEVE AND OBEY HIM–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Paul says that God made the prophetic writings known so that all nations might believe and obey. So again, the word of God tells us that faith comes from hearing. Here are more scriptures that explain how we have to HEAR the message that saves: Acts 8:31: 10:14; 11:14; 16:31; John 9:36; Ephesians 1:13; 4:21; Titus 1:3; Colossians 1:5; 1:23.

Calvinism is in defiance to God's Word. The things Calvinism teaches is just creepy and wrong.

 

[Nanja]

Really? Is that your defense to carefully explained reply to you?

Don't you know that mere denial means nothing in the way of defense?

We have to believe and obey to be saved.

Listen, all gospel commands of obedience can only be obeyed by one who is Born of God, the New Man Eph. 4:24; 2:10, because a person who is still in the flesh, which is the old man, cannot please God Rom. 8:8.

But I know it's impossible for you to comprehend that 1 Cor. 2:14.

 

[God's Truth]

Listen, all gospel commands of obedience can only be obeyed by one who is Born of God, the New Man Eph. 4:24; 2:10, because a person who is still in the flesh, which is the old man, cannot please God Rom. 8:8.

But I know it's impossible for you to comprehend that 1 Cor. 2:14.

I already explained those scriptures to you. If you want to discuss those scriptures more, than reply to what I said those scripture mean and why you think it is wrong.

 

[Crucible]

What Calvinism teaches is NOWHERE in the Bible.

You can't find it in any single place, because it is the WHOLE Bible :chuckle:

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!
WE MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO HAVE FAITH.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

There is nothing in what you've stated that goes against Calvinism. Yet again, you're just choosing what you do and don't want to acknowledge.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.


Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Paul is going to open their eyes by preaching to them.

Oh, so we're no longer suggesting, we're now unto actually doing.

There's intellectual sin #1 of your 'Free Willianity' :chuckle:

 

[Nanja]

I already explained those scriptures to you. If you want to discuss those scriptures more, than reply to what I said those scripture mean and why you think it is wrong.

You're not qualified to exegete the scriptures, which are God's Words, because you have not been born of God.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The natural man receiveth not the things of God 1 Cor. 2:14.

That's you!

 

[God's Truth]

You're not qualified to exegete the scriptures, which are God's Words, because you have not been born of God.

You just condemned yourself.

I do not tell people they are not saved.

However, Jesus says with the way in which you judge others is the way you will be judged.

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

[God's Truth]

You can't find it in any single place, because it is the WHOLE Bible :chuckle:

There is nothing in what you've stated that goes against Calvinism. Yet again, you're just choosing what you do and don't want to acknowledge.

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.


Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


Oh, so we're no longer suggesting, we're now unto actually doing.

There's intellectual sin #1 of your 'Free Willianity' :chuckle:

Don't you know your own doctrines?

Jesus says believe and obey and then you will be saved.

Calvinists say no I cannot, save me first.

That is the difference.

When Jesus says why do you call me Lord and then he says away from me you evil doers---he is not telling them to go away from him because they obeyed, or for not believing they cannot obey (??????)lol! He is telling them to go away because they never obeyed and repented of their sins, they kept doing evil while they did other things like cast out demons, and prophesied.

 

[Nanja]

You just condemned yourself.

I do not tell people they are not saved.

However, Jesus says with the way in which you judge others is the way you will be judged.

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

No God qualified that.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

You preach a false gospel works Paul warned the Saints about Gal. 1:8-9

 

[beloved57]

Don't you know your own doctrines?

Jesus says believe and obey and then you will be saved.

Calvinists say no I cannot, save me first.

That is the difference.

When Jesus says why do you call me Lord and then he says away from me you evil doers---he is not telling them to go away from him because they obeyed, or for not believing they cannot obey (??????)lol! He is telling him to go away because they never obeyed and repented of their sins, they kept doing evil while they did other things like cast out demons, and prophesied.

The Jesus l serve, He believed and obeyed and many righteous Rom 5:19!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[God's Truth]

No God qualified that.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

You preach a false gospel works Paul warned the Saints about Gal. 1:8-9

You haven't proven I preach anything false; nor have you proved that if I preached something false that I would be condemned.

You do condemn yourself, for I have a powerful testimony where Jesus himself saved me.

You should be more careful, for the way in which you judge others is the way you will be judged.

Jesus doesn't condemn anyone for obeying him.

Jesus doesn't call it a condemnable works salvation.

That is a lie from the devil to preach there is a wrong time to obey God and a good time not to.

 

[Epoisses]

Rather than dealing with what has been presented as the proper interpretation of the passage in question, 1 John 2:2, the only rejoinder you have offered is but moving the goal posts to yet more improperly interpreted Scripture and cavils about Calvinism.

For that matter, you haven't provided a single argument to support your claims, e.g., the atonement is universal. Nor have you dealt with what I have provided as analysis of the actual passage in question. Moving to yet another verse is evidence you have no proper answer.

No one can provide an answer to a nonexistent argument. Unless and until you or others like you put an actual argument on the table, there's nothing for anyone to evaluate.

Too many non-Calvinists take crucial intellectual shortcuts.

Critics of Calvinism need to master the difference between assertions and arguments. They need to become aware of their unexamined assumptions. When they are pressed to examine them, things usually start off well enough. But as the discussion continues wherein they are asked to dig deeper into what they are asserting without careful examination, the discussion quickly turns into personal attacks; most likely borne of the cognitive dissonance that has erupted within themselves. At that point it usually becomes a matter of fight or flight. Being a good steward of one's time granted by God dictates not to waste one's efforts on those that have shown themselves to be unwilling or unable to engage at the needed substantive level for sacred topics.

The non-Calvinist needs to learn that just because something seems to be wrong to them, that creates no presumption that their perception is correct. Non-Calvinist critics need to become aware of how often they beg the question.

Unfortunately, these folks usually shield themselves from scrutiny by playing to a sympathetic audience or airing their views in a controlled setting (which they themselves can control). They don't usually risk direct and substantive engagement with others who disagree and who happen to be outside their own weight class. And for good reason. :AMR:

Not a few non-Calvinists like to merely nakedly assert, usually involving some lifted Scripture quotes with nice boldface or coloring, without providing and actual argument and then sit back. After all, "Scripture says this, see my boldface therein? That settles it. I win!" :AMR1:

It is simply not the Calvinist's job to make their argument for these sorts, as they are but intellectual freeloaders. Why should anyone enable their intellectual laziness by doing the heavy-lifting they themselves should be doing? Unless there's a well-provided reason to think their view of this or that matter of doctrine is incompatible with God's goodness, love, or whatever, there's nothing for the Calvinist to disprove. We literally have nothing to work with in a real discussion.

Accordingly, it is becoming an increasingly rare occasion for me to actually engage another unless that person has honestly shown themselves to be willing to stay put until the matter is driven to ground versus retreating behind verbal abuse when unable to furnish even prima facie reasons for their objections, toadying to the crowd, lachrymose claims of hurt feelings, refusal to dig deeper into the topic and interact with the same, and other what-nots that purportedly gives them a rationalization to avoid actual discussion of specifics.

I have no problem explaining that which I hold dear to the sincere person wanting to know more about some topic or even question what I believe. It just seems to me in the public arena some are unwilling to be seen as willing to learn something new or increase their knowledge, especially if the person they are directing their mere assertions and opinions toward is the imaginary Bogeyman, the Calvinist.

AMR




AMR

The burden of poof lies squarely on your shoulders. Calvinists assert the verse doesn't refer to the whole world when the meaning couldn't be any clearer. You have to tell a really tall tale but that shouldn't hard for you with your French magic.

 

[Shasta]

The burden of poof lies squarely on your shoulders. Calvinists assert the verse doesn't refer to the whole world when the meaning couldn't be any clearer. You have to tell a really tall tale but that shouldn't hard for you with your French magic.

What I do not like is sanctimonious lecturing (like the one you just quoted) by people who assume they know more about most everything in the Bible than almost everyone else. I like even less people who self-righteously proclaim that those who do not agree with them are of the devil or in darkness or going to hell.

 

[TulipBee]

Did you seek him? Deut 4:29 Do you go out half way to meet him today? Mt 14:29, 25:6

Observed being found.

 

[Shasta]

No God qualified that.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

You preach a false gospel works Paul warned the Saints about Gal. 1:8-9

Your theology as expressed here has a few bald assertions:

1. All your words are God's words
2. Anyone who disagrees with you disagrees with God
3. Anyone who agrees with what you say is in agreement with God

Coming from Jesus John 8:47 rings true. However, coming from most people around here it sounds like the same kind of self-assured, self-righteous thinking that inspired Calvin to suppress, persecute and kill all those who disagreed with him. After all, if they disagreed with him they disagreed with God.

As for the Galatian scripture you cited, Paul was not shoring up their belief in determinism in order to defend against the notion that men can make choices. That was not even a blip on the historic radar. The false doctrine the Galatians faced was that teaching of the Judaizers which was another issue entirely. You should read the scriptures you post before using them in your argument.

 

[Nanja]

Your theology as expressed here has a few bald assertions:

1. All your words are God's words
2. Anyone who disagrees with you disagrees with God
3. Anyone who agrees with what you say is in agreement with God

Coming from Jesus John 8:47 rings true. However, coming from most people around here it sounds like the same kind of self-assured, self-righteous thinking that inspired Calvin to suppress, persecute and kill all those who disagreed with him. After all, if they disagreed with him they disagreed with God.

As for the Galatian scripture you cited, Paul was not shoring up their belief in determinism in order to defend against the notion that men can make choices. That was not even a blip on the historic radar. The false doctrine the Galatians faced was that teaching of the Judaizers which was another issue entirely. You should read the scriptures you post before using them in your argument.

The scriptures I quote are indeed God's Words!