Oh goody!
No judgment day !
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
No judgment day !
For the Christian their judgment has already taken place. They were crucified with Christ, Galatians 2:20.
For all others that are trusting in their religion, like Calvinism, Catholicism, etc. Their judgment is yet to come.
If the answer did not have value I would not have asked the question.
Then I got nothing To worry about
It all depends upon what you are mixing with faith.
There is no room in the Gospel for Calvinism.
If you think that it is your faith plus Calvinism, think again.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Ask Mr. Religion
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The same time you did, no? Some recall that moment of their re-birth, yet for some it seems to have been something that just happened with little awareness. The latter is often the experience of children brought up in a Christian home.
AMR
I take it you are a moderate Calvinist and believe that a man can be saved by free will choice, Yes? That is accepting the gift of God by grace through faith.
beloved57
Well-known member
Nothing but invalid comments, not supported by scripture !
The Bible is full of scriptures that teach the Gospel and justification by faith. The whole second chapter of Acts is about people hearing and believing the Gospel and being saved. You just don't want to hear about it.
beloved57
Well-known member
Since when did you start believing the scripture? You teach salvation by works, by what a person does!
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If you mean that a person can choose to believe before he or she is first re-born from above, then no. That is the real issue in all these discussions. Is fallen man spiritually dead (unable not to not sin) or merely wounded and able to cooperate in their own re-birth? I am confident Scripture teaches the former quite clearly as it should, lest we make God a debtor.
Not sure what this has to do with your question:
I provided an answer and am interested in your response.
AMR
Ask Mr. Religion
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You are not saying anything to disagree with Robert. You are just using words we all know, but you have a particular view of what the words mean. Your statement is nothing more than someone saying, the Bible is full of Scriptures about Jesus and God. Of course it is. Of course Scripture speaks to the Gospel and justification by faith alone. That people hear the Good News and are being saved is but the ordinary means by which God's children are brought into the Kingdom. No disagreement there.
The thing you are not saying, the elephant in the room, is that you think fallen folk are morally able to choose to believe what they are hearing. Nothing in Scripture states fallen man has any moral ability to choose the righteousness of God, and you have yet to provide any support for the view. You pick verses here and there, get answers demonstrating that your view can be seen differently, yet you refuse to consider that you might just be wrong.
You and others seem to follow the logic that God would not command something if man was unable to do it. Yet this is not proven by Scripture. The Reformed position argues convincingly that while Scripture teaches we are all by nature sinful, even dead in our sins (Romans 5:12, Eph 2: 1-3), we are nevertheless obligated to uphold the moral law, the righteous standard the Creator has established (Romans 2:12-13, Matthew 5:17-20). There is no indication in Scripture that because sin has infected us that God has either canceled our responsibility for keeping His holy law or removed our guilt when we fail to do so. Yet our failure to be able to keep the law is designed for the very purpose of driving us to the righteousness that can only be found in Christ (Romans 7: 13, 24).
You folks cling to an idea that there is some prevenient grace within all the lost persons that enables them to overcome their state of fallenness. Yet, in the helpless, lost state man finds himself in—a sinner with no desire for God—only God's grace will save him. Is that grace your Arminian "prevenient grace", which brings him only to the brink of salvation but must finally be completed by an act of the un-regenerated (though "enlightened") human will? Just how enlightened by prevenient grace is the will anyway, since it may also finally decide that the gospel isn't true, after all? If all receive the same amount of prevenient grace, then why is it effective only in some, and not all? The fact that all receive the same portion of prevenient grace implies that there is something within people that would be the determining factor in whether or not they respond positively to the influence of prevenient grace and say yes to the gospel. Would not this act of believing then, become something about which such people could boast? (Eph 2: 8-9, 1 Cor 28-29).
AMR
rako
New member
Eastern Orthodox teach that God foreknew what people would do, and he chose masses of people to be saved, but that just foreknowing that they will do something does not determine their choice, ie. it's not as if they cannot resist God or are saved no matter what. That would be a denial of free will.
You are correct Pate.
And, of course, you are an Ultra, hyper-Calvinist fanatic.
Amen.
I'll bet you avoid, "U-turns?"
Hey Ben Masada, you claim to be Jewish. Does that mean that you're a "Messiantic Jew," or what?
rako
New member
Maybe the Emmaus travelers were given multiple explicit proof texts?
Zech 11-13, Daniel 9, etc. can be prooftexted, I think.