Calvinism and the word "WORLD"

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Charles94

New member
Robert Pate said:
The word "world" in the Bible means humanity. Such as, "God so loved the world" John 3:16.
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Not exactly. Matt16:26, 1Tim6:7 and Acts17:24 do not use “kosmos” as equivalent to “humanity” at all. Rather, the context tells you what it means.

John12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, “You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!”

This verse doesn't mean that everyone in the world was following Jesus – if you took a moment to reflect, you would notice that the Pharisees were not included in this “world” and likely none of the people who lived thousands of miles away on other continents at that point either.

All they meant by “world” was that all kinds of people were following Jesus – like many of the Jews and also the Greeks mentioned in v20.

John17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours...20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word...

This verse doesn't mean that Jesus refused to intercede for everyone in the world. He is obviously praying not only for those who believed at that time, but also those who would believe in the future – even today. (And not just in a “might/maybe/hope for the best” optimism but certainty of those who definitely “will” believe.) He prays that we would be united and protected from the evil one – I believe that God knows the future and that Jesus could have prayed for me by name had He wanted. OTOH, the subset of humanity excluded from this prayer would logically be those who did not believe and who never will believe to the end of time. You could call this subset of humanity the “world of unbelievers.”

John3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already...

You like the first verse here but never get to the rest of the chapter (i.e. the context). Jesus was not sent into the world to condemn the “world” (presumably the same “world” that God loves in v16) and yet v18 says that unbelievers are condemned already. Is the Father condemning the same group of people that the Son will not condemn? You really think the Father and Son are working in opposition and not on the same page if it will salvage your misreading of v16? Or would it just make too much sense if the "unbelievers" here in John 3 are not included in the subset of the "world" in this passage?

From a human perspective, it is true that anyone may come and every single one of those who comes will be accepted. There is no mystical Calvinistic “elect” who refuse to believe within space and time that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Any leader of ISIS will certainly be saved if they call on the Lord in faith and repentance. The issue for Calvinists is “why do we choose what we choose?” I do not believe that people choose randomly (you misname it to say "freely") – so in order for someone to make different choices, they would need to see the world differently (which is the point of the beginning of John 3).

But there is no “whosoever” here in the Greek. There is no uncertainty in the passage at all. From God's perspective, He declares the end from the beginning and accomplishes all that He intends (Isa46:10-11) even if you implicitly deny God's perfect knowledge of the future. There is a promise in John 3 for all those who believe, and secondarily, a curse for those who don't believe (v36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him). If you want to see the “reverse image” of this passage, Psalm 2 is directed to unbelievers with only a side reminder to believers that they have nothing to fear. If you can't teach your version of “God loves the world” with Psalm 2, then your Bible might be broken (or else you need to stop and check your theology.)
 
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Charles94

New member
I see Hebrews 2:9 is another of your pet prooftexts. It doesn't even use the word “kosmos”, rather, it uses “pas” (“all” or “all kinds”).

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil...

The old KJV taught that the “love of money is the root of “all” evil – which, for non-calvinists who chant “all means all”, can make for some sad attempts at explaining why King David committed adultery because he loved money.

Acts 2:17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

“Pas” is translated here as “all flesh.” But the context of Acts 2 tells us that while Joel's prophesy was fulfilled, the Spirit was only poured out on believers. Male and female, young and old, but only believers, and not every single individual person.

Have you ever actually looked at the context of Hebrews 2:9?

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS to glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and THOSE WHO ARE BEING SANCTIFIED are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN...13...“Here am I and the CHILDREN whom God has given Me.”

16For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the SEED OF ABRAHAM. (See also: Galatians 3:29.)

He tasted death for all of His family (sons/brothers), for “those who are being sanctified” and for the children of Abraham (John 8:39-56 is another helpful text here). A lot of synonyms for "believers."

You can try to prooftext verses like 1 Timothy 2:6 as meaning “every single person,” but v7 clarifies that Paul is speaking to the Jew/Gentile division that persisted in the early Church.

OTOH, the scriptures teach “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us…” Gal3:13 He was made a curse for “us” who believe. But to unbelievers He says, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt25:41 He was not made a curse for them – He did not take away their sin.

Rom8:32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

If God’s Son was given up for “us all” then how shall He not also give “us all” all things, including justification. Does the “us all” here – described as God’s “elect” or “chosen” – refer to believers or everyone? Given the logical argument here and your teaching that Jesus was given up for “every single person in the world,” how can God send away those cursed in Matt25 if Jesus was given up for them?

I believe that 1 John 2:2 is written to the Jewish church in the 1st century - that is the group to whom John was primarily sent (Galatians 2:9). But if you’ve read the rest of the NT, you may have noticed that the Christian Jews had a lot of trouble accepting that Jesus also came for the Gentiles, which is why John reminds them that Jesus was not only the propitiation for the sins of the Jews but for the Gentile believers as well. And John repeats the same thing in his gospel:

John11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

You talk about “atonement” like it is something you can put in a bottle and pick up or put down instead of a transaction between the Father and Son. How do you even define words like “atonement” or “propitiation”? When in scripture are they ever applied to unbelievers? If the Father accepted the Son's sacrifice of atonement on behalf on unbelievers then why does His wrath abide on them?
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Charles94 said:
Not exactly. Matt16:26, 1Tim6:7 and Acts17:24 do not use “kosmos” as equivalent to “humanity” at all. Rather, the context tells you what it means.

John12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, “You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him!”

This verse doesn't mean that everyone in the world was following Jesus – if you took a moment to reflect, you would notice that the Pharisees were not included in this “world” and likely none of the people who lived thousands of miles away on other continents at that point either.

All they meant by “world” was that all kinds of people were following Jesus – like many of the Jews and also the Greeks mentioned in v20.

John17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours...20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word...

This verse doesn't mean that Jesus refused to intercede for everyone in the world. He is obviously praying not only for those who believed at that time, but also those who would believe in the future – even today. (And not just in a “might/maybe/hope for the best” optimism but certainty of those who definitely “will” believe.) He prays that we would be united and protected from the evil one – I believe that God knows the future and that Jesus could have prayed for me by name had He wanted. OTOH, the subset of humanity excluded from this prayer would logically be those who did not believe and who never will believe to the end of time. You could call this subset of humanity the “world of unbelievers.”

John3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already...

You like the first verse here but never get to the rest of the chapter (i.e. the context). Jesus was not sent into the world to condemn the “world” (presumably the same “world” that God loves in v16) and yet v18 says that unbelievers are condemned already. Is the Father condemning the same group of people that the Son will not condemn? You really think the Father and Son are working in opposition and not on the same page if it will salvage your misreading of v16? Or would it just make too much sense if the "unbelievers" here in John 3 are not included in the subset of the "world" in this passage?

From a human perspective, it is true that anyone may come and every single one of those who comes will be accepted. There is no mystical Calvinistic “elect” who refuse to believe within space and time that Jesus is Lord and Savior. Any leader of ISIS will certainly be saved if they call on the Lord in faith and repentance. The issue for Calvinists is “why do we choose what we choose?” I do not believe that people choose randomly (you misname it to say "freely") – so in order for someone to make different choices, they would need to see the world differently (which is the point of the beginning of John 3).

But there is no “whosoever” here in the Greek. There is no uncertainty in the passage at all. From God's perspective, He declares the end from the beginning and accomplishes all that He intends (Isa46:10-11) even if you implicitly deny God's perfect knowledge of the future. There is a promise in John 3 for all those who believe, and secondarily, a curse for those who don't believe (v36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him). If you want to see the “reverse image” of this passage, Psalm 2 is directed to unbelievers with only a side reminder to believers that they have nothing to fear. If you can't teach your version of “God loves the world” with Psalm 2, then your Bible might be broken (or else you need to stop and check your theology.)
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Psalm 2 has no bearing on John 3:16. For one thing Psalm 2 was written under the law. John 3:16 was written under grace. It is not good theology to mix Old Testament scriptures with New Testament scriptures. Things were much different under the law than they are under grace. As far as the word "world" goes in John 3:16, it means all of humanity. God loves all of his creation, not just some of it. This is why he sent Jesus into the world to save the world. In the end all that want to be with Christ will be with him. Those that don't won't.
 
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Charles94

New member
“Psalm 2 has no bearing on John 3:16. For one thing Psalm 2 was written under the law. John 3:16 was written under grace. It is not good theology to mix Old Testament scriptures with New Testament scriptures. Things were much different under the law than they are under grace.

The Jesus of the Bible disagrees with “your Jesus” yet again:

Luke24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

There are a few artifacts of the OT Jewish nation's laws that have been clearly thrown out, such as the food laws, but Jesus Himself tells us that the OT is all about Him. Psalm 2 has exactly the same topic as John 3: what is God's position on those who accept or reject His Son? (and both reach exactly the same conclusion on those who do not believe – God's wrath burns against them, Psalm 2 just adds a few details about God mocking them, “holding them in derision” and wanting to “dash them to pieces.”)

Hebrews 10:13 is “under grace” in your mindset but still makes a very violent distinction between unbelievers and believers. You say that by one offering, your Jesus only made salvation possible. But it sure looks like He actually accomplished something at the cross for the believing subset of humanity that is continuing to be applied in space and time, but has a different plan for His enemies.

Heb10:13-14...from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

James and Paul, for all their supposed differences, both teach that Abraham was saved by grace through faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (James2:23; Rom4:3) Abraham was saved by receiving the gospel (Gal3:8) and Jesus rejected the genetic heirs of Abraham because they didn't do what Abraham did, who “looked forward to My day and was glad” (John8:56; Heb11:13) The writer of Hebrews says all the OT saints were saved by faith (Heb11), and that even Moses the law-giver was a “Christian” (Heb11:26,40).

The covenant of Law (the “old covenant”) was with Moses and that is over and done. But the covenant with Abraham (OT or not) remains in effect as it was fulfilled in Christ – that's basically the theme of Galatians. “And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Which means that logically, if you are NOT Abraham's child and heir, then you are not Christ's.

“As far as the word "world" goes in John 3:16, it means all of humanity.”

No, and I just showed why it didn't. You don't seem to understand that asserting something doesn't make it true – if God's wrath abides on part of humanity as He condemns them “already”, that's a big problem for your interpretation. If you can actually interact with an argument, that would be helpful.

“In the end all that want to be with Christ will be with him. Those that don't won't.”

That's pretty much what C.S. Lewis said, and Adrian Rogers taught, “If you go to hell, a broken-hearted God will watch you drop into hell.” It makes sense from a noncalvinist viewpoint – that the sins of unbelievers are atoned and God accepts them. But the scriptures disagree with all 3 of you.

The rich man in Luke 16 wanted to escape condemnation and was rejected. The goats want to be accepted but are told to “Depart!” The language of the NT (and Jesus, specifically) is not that those in Hell want to be apart from Christ but rather that they are “cast” (forcibly) into Hell and darkness. Luke12:5 “But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!” (Matt13:49-50; Matt 25:30; Rev20:15; Matt7:22-23; Luke13:25-28)
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Charles94 said:
“Psalm 2 has no bearing on John 3:16. For one thing Psalm 2 was written under the law. John 3:16 was written under grace. It is not good theology to mix Old Testament scriptures with New Testament scriptures. Things were much different under the law than they are under grace.

The Jesus of the Bible disagrees with “your Jesus” yet again:

Luke24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

There are a few artifacts of the OT Jewish nation's laws that have been clearly thrown out, such as the food laws, but Jesus Himself tells us that the OT is all about Him. Psalm 2 has exactly the same topic as John 3: what is God's position on those who accept or reject His Son? (and both reach exactly the same conclusion on those who do not believe – God's wrath burns against them, Psalm 2 just adds a few details about God mocking them, “holding them in derision” and wanting to “dash them to pieces.”)

Hebrews 10:13 is “under grace” in your mindset but still makes a very violent distinction between unbelievers and believers. You say that by one offering, your Jesus only made salvation possible. But it sure looks like He actually accomplished something at the cross for the believing subset of humanity that is continuing to be applied in space and time, but has a different plan for His enemies.

Heb10:13-14...from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

James and Paul, for all their supposed differences, both teach that Abraham was saved by grace through faith: “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (James2:23; Rom4:3) Abraham was saved by receiving the gospel (Gal3:8) and Jesus rejected the genetic heirs of Abraham because they didn't do what Abraham did, who “looked forward to My day and was glad” (John8:56; Heb11:13) The writer of Hebrews says all the OT saints were saved by faith (Heb11), and that even Moses the law-giver was a “Christian” (Heb11:26,40).

The covenant of Law (the “old covenant”) was with Moses and that is over and done. But the covenant with Abraham (OT or not) remains in effect as it was fulfilled in Christ – that's basically the theme of Galatians. “And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Which means that logically, if you are NOT Abraham's child and heir, then you are not Christ's.

“As far as the word "world" goes in John 3:16, it means all of humanity.”

No, and I just showed why it didn't. You don't seem to understand that asserting something doesn't make it true – if God's wrath abides on part of humanity as He condemns them “already”, that's a big problem for your interpretation. If you can actually interact with an argument, that would be helpful.

“In the end all that want to be with Christ will be with him. Those that don't won't.”

That's pretty much what C.S. Lewis said, and Adrian Rogers taught, “If you go to hell, a broken-hearted God will watch you drop into hell.” It makes sense from a noncalvinist viewpoint – that the sins of unbelievers are atoned and God accepts them. But the scriptures disagree with all 3 of you.

The rich man in Luke 16 wanted to escape condemnation and was rejected. The goats want to be accepted but are told to “Depart!” The language of the NT (and Jesus, specifically) is not that those in Hell want to be apart from Christ but rather that they are “cast” (forcibly) into Hell and darkness. Luke12:5 “But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!” (Matt13:49-50; Matt 25:30; Rev20:15; Matt7:22-23; Luke13:25-28)
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There is no doubt about it that many will be lost. But you don't seem to know why. They are lost because they have rejected God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:8.

God in the person of Jesus Christ has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man. Sin has been atoned for. The law has been fulfilled and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. We now stand before God as complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

But many want to save themselves by the works of the law or through religion. Calvinist want salvation to be imposed upon them. Very few are willing to accept God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ. Pride will take multitudes to hell.

You appear to be more in fear and unbelief than you are to be resting and trusting in Christ, Hebrews 4:10. I do not fear God. I believe that all that he does is just, merciful and righteous. If you are not in Christ (trusting in him) then yes, you should fear God because you are lost.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
There is no doubt about it that many will be lost. But you don't seem to know why. They are lost because they have rejected God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:8.

God in the person of Jesus Christ has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man. Sin has been atoned for. The law has been fulfilled and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. We now stand before God as complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

But many want to save themselves by the works of the law or through religion. Calvinist want salvation to be imposed upon them. Very few are willing to accept God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ. Pride will take multitudes to hell.

You appear to be more in fear and unbelief than you are to be resting and trusting in Christ, Hebrews 4:10. I do not fear God. I believe that all that he does is just, merciful and righteous. If you are not in Christ (trusting in him) then yes, you should fear God because you are lost.
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You teach that sinners Christ died for Will be lost, hence denying that He's the Saviour!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
Salvation has been provided for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9

Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15, so that WHOSOEVER that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
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Christ tasted death for every one of His Sons / Children: His Seed Chosen in Him of the Father before the foundation Eph 1:4-5; Is. 53:10.

Heb. 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

But the rest of humanity are the sons / children of the devil Mat. 13:38; John 8:44, which shall not be saved from the second death:

Rev. 21:7-8
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Only God's Sons shall overcome, because Christ is the Author and Finisher of their Faith Heb. 12:2.
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Nanja said:
Christ tasted death for every one of His Sons / Children: His Seed Chosen in Him of the Father before the foundation Eph 1:4-5; Is. 53:10.

Heb. 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

But the rest of humanity are the sons / children of the devil Mat. 13:38; John 8:44, which shall not be saved from the second death:

Rev. 21:7-8
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Only God's Sons shall overcome, because Christ is the Author and Finisher of their Faith Heb. 12:2.
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You have to add words to God's word or your Calvinist religion won't make sense.
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
It's only those who were chosen to Salvation and belief of the Truth which shall be Given Spiritual discernment in New Birth.

For the Sanctifying Work of the Spirit in all God's Elect, empowers each one of them in their lifetime, to embrace the things of God and His Truth!

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

1 Cor. 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So, if and unless a person is Given New Birth, become born again, born of the Spirit of God, they will never have the ability to hear [comprehend / understand] the Truths of the scriptures which are Spiritual!

John 8:43, 47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 47 He that is of God [Born of God] heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Nanja said:
It's only those who were chosen to Salvation and belief of the Truth which shall be Given Spiritual discernment in New Birth.

For the Sanctifying Work of the Spirit in all God's Elect, empowers each one of them in their lifetime, to embrace the things of God and His Truth!

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

1 Cor. 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So, if and unless a person is Given New Birth, become born again, born of the Spirit of God, they will never have the ability to hear [comprehend / understand] the Truths of the scriptures which are Spiritual!

John 8:43, 47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 47 He that is of God [Born of God] heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
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So why can't you comprehend that Christ died for the whole world?
 
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Charles94

New member
Robert Pate said:
I do not fear God.
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The Scriptures say you should, including the Jesus you deny:

Luke12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Prov9:10"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

It is true that your imaginary jesus would never inspire fear. Your imaginary jesus would never refuse to pray for the world in John17:9 - he would optimistically wish and hope for the best for everyone but have no clue how things would eventually pan out. Your imaginary jesus cannot save. If you keep denying the Jesus of the Bible who actually did refuse to pray and intercede for the world, don't be that surprised if He claims not to know you at the last day.
 
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