beloved57
Well-known member
There's not one scripture that says man has a freewill, it's one of the biggest lies ever!
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Calvinism: A declaration that God is unjust and that his Son is a failure
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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God doesn't have to tell you that you have a freewill. Common sense should tell you that.
beloved57
Well-known member
Your god is mans freewill, salvation not by the blood of Christ, but by the freewil of man !
"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
Sounds like free will to me.
beloved57
Well-known member
You call upon the name of freewill, thats your saviour since you believe sinners Christ died for are lost stilln!
They are lost because they willingly reject Christ's gift. Christ died for all mankind. But that doesn't mean that all mankind will accept Him.
Lon
Well-known member
Look, you have your own issues. I've put you on ignore simply because you don't know me. If I'm not a Calvinist in your mind, no problem. If I am, no problem. I don't care about labels. The problem is your own. You ran in swinging like a son of thunder calling down fire. Take a step back, assess rightly, then emote all you like. Leading with your emotions, you've marginalized yourself. REGARDLESS if we agree or disagree on anything, you CAN learn from those like you and those who think differently. I do all the time. Go ahead and attack all you like. On ignore, I don't even see it most of the time. Because you happened to post after me? I thought I'd try and address some of your unfounded angst. You have no 'godly' reason for it. Jesus loved His sons of thunder, James and John, but John became a lover. Learn(not from me, from the Lord Jesus). Be a lover first, you'll fight fairly after that. Until then? You've been incredibly unfair and mean without foundation. In Him -Lon
Lon, you put your enemy Christians on ignore when you don't know how to refute.
You have evaded most of the questions I asked you.
You don't know how to put Jesus' teachings into practice like most of churchgoers. My questions are all Jesus' teachings related.
You have no idea how to converse about Jesus' simple teachings because it is not in your daily life.
Christianity is practical, not just concept.
His followers are supposed to live what Jesus teaches.
Projection, much?
Says the one who rejects what Paul says about his message being from Christ Himself.
It's not that you don't know how to conversate, it's that you're completely unwilling to.
That only works if you know what He says throughout the Bible, which you clearly do not.
We do have the “ability to make choices and decisions.” We certainly have a will.
Spurgeon addressed that in his sermon – Free Will, a Slave - “The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing.”
Which is to say that the sort of “free” will that you teach turns into a logical train wreck, in that you suggest that we make choices randomly or for no reason at all. I have a friend who hates the taste of mushrooms and is allergic to them to the point she becomes violently ill when she eats them, so she has no “free will” in ordering mushrooms. (It's like you think when you went into the voting booth that you had a 30% chance of voting for Hillary Clinton, even if you thought that she was the worst possible candidate? That you might vote for Hillary as your will “freely” ignored your intellect and sense of right and wrong? How is it “common sense” that you are “free” to choose what you hate and despise?)
Rather, our choices (i.e. our wills) reflect and are constrained by our understanding, our worldview, our desires, our emotions...our natures. That's why Jesus teaches that those with “enmity against God” who think His teachings are “foolishness” cannot come to Him – their whole being despises Him, so they have zero motivation to choose Him. And you cannot simply decide to change your nature:
Jer13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
But this is all through the Bible, that our choices (and subsequent actions) reflect who we are inside:
Luke6:43-45 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
James3:12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.
John8:42-44,47 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do...He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
John10:26 Jesus answered them, “...But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep..."
You probably teach the opposite of this, “that if someone believes in Jesus, that they will become His sheep.” Jesus instead taught that if your nature is that of His sheep, then you will naturally believe. If God were your Father (i.e. if you are “of God” and have been born of the Spirit), then love for Him would spring out of that new spiritual nature. We need a new nature in order to have new desires and motivations, as without the Spirit, men have their minds set on the things of the flesh and are at enmity with God. Rom8:5-8
1Cor2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper...the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him...
John6:44,65 And Jesus said to them...“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day...And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
No one "can" come, no one "can" understand and receive the gospel. Any grammar school teacher will tell you that they “may” come – they are invited to come – but the problem is that they lack the ability. They are invited to come if they wanted to (and every Calvinist agrees that if they came, they would be accepted), but they will never want to – it would never make any sense to them.
Here's one Bible story:
2Kings6:15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?”
16 So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
As a fan of free will, you may be curious about the servant. We are not specifically told if he was still fearful after his eyes were opened. I can tell you that seeing both the love and power of God revealed in God's powerful defense of them turned everything upside down for him – he would not respond randomly, as his perspective was changed and he understood things he did not understand before, so there was no possibility of fear of the small pathetic human army. As I said before, people simply don't choose things for no reason – instead they make choices that reflect their worldview, their personality, their reasoning, their desires – people make choices that reflect who they are.
No Calvinist that I know of has ever claimed that “God made them do that.” Congrats on the non sequitur. The Jewish leaders did what they wanted (and God knew 700 years before and inspired Isaiah to write chapter53 in anticipation of their disobedience) – the question I'm trying to get you to address is “why do you think they were free to do something they didn't want to do (in this case, repent and follow Jesus rather than perjure themselves and have Him killed)? And secondly, have you not considered that when you claim that they have free will, you make a parallel claim that they had the power to make God a liar...to prove His prophetic Spirit false?
God didn't make Peter deny Jesus. If Peter were a 21st century sci-fi fan, he possibly might have kept Jesus' prophecy in mind and made a different choice. But Peter was a 1st century fisherman whose world was falling apart and he feared for his life, so he made the only choice that made sense to him. Peter wasn't a puppet – he was acting exactly like Peter in that circumstance. The question I'm asking you is, “why do you suppose Peter was “free” to choose what made no sense to him at that time?” If God at least knew Peter's decision beforehand, can we at least agree that Peter was not “free” in any sense to do otherwise?
That God hardened Pharaoh is only an issue for those with Robert's out-of-context interpretation of 2Pet3:9. God would not have to harden Pharaoh to get him to disobey, Pharaoh wanted to disobey all along...but God was certainly free to harden him to bring about a specific type of disobedience, such that the Passover/Lord's Supper would be established. OTOH, Paul was like any other unbelieving Pharisee externally (zeal without knowledge) and if God had hardened him in his rebellion no one could say he didn't deserve it... but God was free to set Paul apart from birth and miraculously meet him on the road to Damascus to blind him so that his spiritual eyes could be opened. (He was blind, but now, he sees. That would make a good song – and of course, “Amazing Grace” was written by a Calvinist.)
Thanks but I signed the waiver when I signed up. I know anathemas will be hurled from many a parent's basement...
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The Reformer acknowledges that all the incidents posted above, were worked by God to make His power known.
Calvinism is represented on TOL for the same purpose, IMO.
Welcome to TOL Charles94!
Nang
God's Truth
New member
How do you ever get that scripture is about no free will?
God hardening Pharaoh is proof that people can believe and obey, or else God would not have needed to harden Pharaoh.
Your not understanding does not make what I said untrue. You just don't have a grasp on what your doctrines imply.
God tells us why people do not believe and obey Him, and none of those reasons are what you say is the reason, none.
God says people do not believe and obey because they are stubborn and rebellious, and that they choose what displeases Him, etc. No such scripture saying they couldn't believe and obey.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Peter had free will and later did overcome his fear for he is known to have been martyred.
No, Pharaoh was going to believe and obey, but God hardened him so that he could not.
Exodus 4:21 he LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 10:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,
It is ironic that Paul's testimony proves Calvinism false. Paul wasn't saved on that road to Damascus. By then, Paul believed in Jesus but was not yet saved. That proves Calvinism is a false doctrine.
HOGWASH!
Everyone is born with the ability to believe and have faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ.
They don't come because they love their sins more than they love Christ. If God did not give everyone the ability to believe and have faith in Christ he would be unjust. You believe the same garbage that Calvinist believe, God is an unjust villain.
Getting back to your struggles with reading passages in context, there is a definite “us-them” dynamic in 2 Peter 3 that you are missing, or simply ignoring.
2Pet3 BELOVED, I now write to YOU this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that YOU may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, BELOVED, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering TOWARD US, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought YOU to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless WE, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, BELOVED, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of OUR Lord is salvation...
The rest of the Bible does teach that God invites and commands every single person to repent and come to Him, sure, but that is not Peter's focus in this passage. Rather, the church was suffering persecution and was asking Peter, “Where is the second coming? We are in misery and are tempted to give up, so why can't Jesus come back right now?” Peter writes back to give them perspective and remind them that “the longsuffering (i.e. patience) of OUR Lord is both "toward us" (specifically) and that it definitely means salvation.
Peter is making no apologies herein for the judgment that is surely coming for “them/the scoffers/the ungodly." As in Psalm 73, their success is a vapor. But the Lord is patient “toward us” - not meaning toward those specific believers at that time; otherwise He might as well have come back then. But He is patient toward His Elect, in that some have still not come in the door through faith. He is patient “toward us” - not willing that any of us should perish but that all of us should come to repentance. Once all of His sheep have been completely gathered in, He will return as He said.
God's patience IS salvation (v15). Not *possible* salvation for some, whomever they turn out to be, as God uncertainly waits and hopes for the best (which is your position as you inexplicably interpret 2Pet3:9 as if God were being patient toward “them, the scoffers.") This passage instead teaches ACTUAL salvation is promised for Jesus' sheep as He shepherds them safely in, calling them by name. And those of us who are suffering (especially looking at the current news in China and Muslim countries) can trust that God's plan and timing are trustworthy, as we know we are not waiting in vain but that our brothers and sisters continue to be brought in to the fold.
Since you deny the God who knows the future and declares the end from the beginning, it does make sense that you would try to salvage this prooftext as a vague well-wishing towards everyone rather than a promise of God specifically for His beloved people, that they are not waiting and suffering in vain. But that is what it is.
The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the Whole world, 1 john 2:2. To not believe that is to not believe the Gospel. Not only did Jesus atone for the sins of the whole world he also atoned for the sins of every individual, Hebrews 2:9. Does God know who will believe in his Son Jesus Christ and be saved? We don't know. God can limit himself if he so desires. Who is saved and who is lost will be revealed in the judgment, that is the purpose of the judgment. If God did not provide salvation for everyone he would be unjust and the lost would be able to accuse him of being unjust in the judgment. No one will be able to accuse God of being unjust. If God has already predetermined who is saved and who is lost then why have a judgment?
This is why I wrote post #3. Yes, every single person is commanded to call on the name of the Lord. Yes, every single person who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But you are assuming (based on a Western man-made philosophy going back to Aristotle) that the command necessarily means an implied ability to obey. You would actually need to prove that, not simply assume it.
This is why I wrote post #3. Yes, every single person is commanded to repent and turn to the Lord. Yes, every single person who repents and turns to the Lord will be saved. But you are assuming (based on a Western man-made philosophy going back to Aristotle) that the command necessarily means an implied ability to obey. You would actually need to prove that, not simply assume it.
That people at enmity with God described in Romans 8 is the story of the whole Bible. It's definitely the story of the exiles of Jeremiah and Ezekiel's time. God invites the exiles to come to Him. They want “their” land back – they want His gifts - but they want nothing to do with God. He says they won't get the land back without turning to Him in faith. So what does God come up with to deal with this hard hearted people?
Ezek36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them....31 THEN you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.
The timeline in this passage suggests that God gives a new heart and new spirit, which consequently results in repentance. There is a logical order to it. Water is a typical picture for us of the Spirit in both the OT and NT (Isa44:3; Acts10). Does it bother you that God changes their hearts first so that they will begin to worship Him (as hard hearted people have no interest in turning to God in faith) and that they only repented in v31 AFTER their stone hearts were replaced? That He put His Spirit in them to “cause” them to obey? (That is pretty unAmerican...)
Same kind of picture in Ezek37, God initiates a change in them and then they shall know that He is Lord:
Ezek37:1 The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. 2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. 3 And He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” So I answered, “O Lord God, You know.”
4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.”
I know a lot of noncalvinists (like Robert Pate) who say that if man is really spiritually dead as Calvinists teach, they wouldn't bother with missions. But Calvinists preach the Gospel to all because, like Ezekiel, we believe that God has the power to raise the dead. There is no worry that their “free will” might send God's word back void – Isa55:11. (It's also worth pointing out that commanding the dry bones to “hear” does not mean they had the natural ability to hear.) While flesh only gives birth to flesh, God's Spirit gives birth to spirit. (John3:6) Even the language is weird, right? You do understand that you had zero freedom to determine your physical birth?
So God commands repentance and the Bible teaches that God gives repentance (and faith, for that matter – Phil1:29; Eph2:8-10).
2Tim2:25...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth...
And believe me, I get that if Timothy were an American, he would ask the dunce question: “But Paul, what if God gives them repentance and they turn it down?” But he wasn't and therefore, didn't. When God gives someone repentance, you can tell...because there is actual, visible repentance. (Otherwise, Paul's words here are meaningless.)
Acts 11:18When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
OTOH:
1Sam2:22-25Now Eli was very old; and he heard everything his sons did to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who assembled at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. So he said to them, “Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. No, my sons! For it is not a good report that I hear. You make the Lord’s people transgress. If one man sins against another, God will judge him. But if a man sins against the Lord, who will intercede for him?” Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them.
So why didn't Eli's sons heed their father and repent? It's true that they were rebellious and hard hearted but that's not the reason that the Bible gives...
Epoisses
New member
Charles94 conveniently ignores 1John 2:2 which is the clearest verse of all that blows your limited atonement out of the water. Why is it that moderate or 4-point Calvinists reject limited atonement in such great numbers? Calvinism will be overthrown from within. All the Clavinists on this forum are of the minority position not the majority.
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