Calling all Open Theists for Feedback

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

First let me say that there is no "absence of God" involved. Neither good (peace) nor evil (calamity) are places or things.

I agree with your statement. [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] counter argues that Evil was not ordained by God, because Evil is "The Absence of God". This is spoken of in a specific allegory that has been redefined to many points. But... God is clearly everywhere, and thus... to say that Evil is the Absence of God is suggesting that there are places God is not.

Because we know that God sustains all life, this again amplifies the point that there is no place that God is not.

To move from this to your next statement... we indeed have a Prince of "Peace" and there is a "son of Perdition" (John 17:12) ... (We know that while Jesus is praying... He is referring to the 12 Disciples and the one that He is saying is "lost" is none other than Judas... who ... (Luke 22:3) specifies becomes the literal hands of (Perdition, or the Dragon/Serpent).

My point?

You tied the pharisees into the scriptures that help us understand what the force of evil is. I fully agree and am working towards that direction, but I am doing so in a comprehensive fashion that shows that there is no doubt that what you are suggesting is "Biblically Confirmed".

The final point is that Evil appoints itself. This is the tie in to everything... but I am striving to get there in a way that binds to all scripture to show that there can be no doubt in the matter of what you expressed.

If I just dropped all of the proof verses to what you have said... it wouldn't make much sense, from @Lon's perspective.

Quote to come...

But, Lon, Adam was free to choose from the beginning.

Have you ever considered whether God was making a point by repeating the serpent's claim?

ie. knowing the effects of good and evil.

Gen. 3:4-5KJV And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

The original sin was the pride of life (with the lust of the flesh and eyes).

I think God alludes to it other places....like here. The Judges of Israel had the same problem.

Psalm 82:6-7KJV I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.​

As did the pharisees in John 10:34:KJV

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment... (2 Peter 2:4)

And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the Great Day... (Jude 1:6)​

Again... You are forgetting what exactly Darkness means... (John 1:5; John 8:12; John 12:46: John 1:4; John 3:19)

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

My little children, these things I write to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 John 2:1)​

The word "Advocate" is from the same Greek word that was translated "Comforter" in the KJV.

You are correct. It means Comforter, Advocate and Mediator...

(Is. 9:6) is a fantastic verse for this... we see a picture of the TriUne and this verbiage is used.

For unto us a Child (Rv. 12:4) is born,
Unto us a Son is given; (Luke 1:32)
And the government will be upon His shoulder. (Is. 44:6)
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, (John 14:26; Rm. 8:9; Eph. 1:13)
Mighty God, (Is. 43:3 and Lk. 2:11)
Everlasting Father, (Rv. 4:2)
Prince of Peace. (Luke 2:14)​

This doesn't change the meaning of matters... we have... (1 Tim. 2:5)

 

[Lon]

@Lon ,

Let's start with your best proof text against me that you may or may not be taking into consideration.

(Is. 45:7}

It's your strongest proof text that God ordained all things and it supports much of the stance that you take. The Hebrew word for "Calamity" in Is. 45:7 is רָ֑ע. It can be translated into the word Evil. This is an epically important Hebrew word to bring to light. It can also be used as disaster and calamity.

This part of the discussion is about God's Sovereignty over all things. Some scriptures will have us discussing different points of Open Theism. While you and I are global thinkers (I am too), we will have to try to progress a bit more incrementally (concrete sequential) because most others think like this. We are unique in the way we categorize ideas and approach almost all subjects from all angles. It is the sign of an analytical mind that tries to always see how things fit in the big picture. So, I'll try and help as we go along to give the concrete sequentials something to hang meaning and context upon. -Lon
Open Theists do argue about God's meticulous control. Other scriptures to consider: Colossians 1:16-20 John 15:5 Acts 17:28 John 1:3 (all imho, stand-alone verses for this specific discussion, meaning you can check me for context, but I believe they are straight forward). Here are a few more for your consideration:

Jeremiah 10:23 O Jehovah, I know that the way of man does not belong to man; it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.
Proverbs 20:24 Man's steps are of Jehovah; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know what I have planned for you,'says the LORD. 'I have plans to prosper you, not to harm you. I have plans to give you a future filled with hope.

Proverbs 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Pro 3:5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, and lean not to your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He will.

Psa 33:9 For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood.
Psa 33:10 Jehovah brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He breaks the plots of the people.
Psa 33:11 The counsel of Jehovah stands forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations.
Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is Jehovah; the people He has chosen for His inheritance.
Psa 33:13 Jehovah looks down from Heaven; He beholds all the sons of mankind.
Psa 33:14 From His dwelling place He looks on all the people of the earth.
Psa 33:15 Together He forms their hearts; His understanding is to all their works.

Psa 37:18 Jehovah knows the days of the upright, and their inheritance shall be forever.
Psa 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by Jehovah; and He delights in his way.
Psa 37:24 Though he fall, he shall not be cast down; for Jehovah upholds his hand.

Job 14:5 For his days are fixed, the number of his months is with You, and You have set his bounds so that he cannot pass;

Isaiah 46:9 Remember former things from forever; for I am God, and no other is God, even none like Me,
Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;
Isaiah 46:11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my purpose from a far country. Yes, I have spoken, I will also cause it to come; I have formed; yes, I will do it.

Rom 9:19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
Rom 9:20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way?
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

@The key to this is biblical continuity. The issue with saying Evil is the "Absence of God" as the well known allegory of the student and the physics professor brings up is that God is never absent from any place. When Adam and Eve are (Gen. 3:8) ... there is an issue. Even by Open Theism... God has a (temporal) Omniscience. This means that God cannot be "hidden" from.

Habakkuk 1:13

This puts us on track to explore what @glorydaz has broached. It is an odd exploration in scripture that is very important. I'm implying that it is now necessary to explore.

The False Morning Star that usurped his place of authority through deception is the place to start. We need to vindicate the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

In order to do this... we will use Romans 7. But, before we get there... we have to identify Evil per (John 5:39) and Christologically see if there is scripture that sheds light on the "(2 Co. 4:4), who seeks to mar the very Name of God.

This is going to plunge us into typification's in scripture of wicked usurpers.

This part needs some unpacking and coherency elucidated. Originally, GloryDaz was discussing the possibility that the freewill of man may not have been the gift of Satan, but of God. For me, I agree, but I see our freewill as something different in intent of God. We have to see it that way. What did it look like before the Fall? That's the discussion GD and I were having. I agree with her that we had some form of perfect will before the Fall. I see it similarly to that of a negative. Our Freewill became solarize where we now were slaves to sin and death, and no longer slaves to God and life. As I ever state, man was truly free before the Fall. His/her one 'do not' had to do with that which would kill them rather than that which could be considered a restraint. In this sense, it touches on sin as a deprivation. One common identification of sin is that I have read is "the absence of God." John 15:5 tells us that 'without Him, we can do nothing.' The sin in the garden separates man from God. You ask how that is possible for a omnipresent God. Rather, I gave an analogy (and they always break-down when pressed) of a jar and everything in it as represented by all that exists. John 15:5 I intimated rather, that sin removes the life-giving Savior from our lives. Such does not mean a lack of omnipresence, but rather a lack of life. John 1:4

 

[jamie]

Again... You are forgetting what exactly Darkness means... (John 1:5; John 8:12; John 12:46: John 1:4; John 3:19)

I don't know about again, but it means the same thing it did to Nebuchadnezzar.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This would be talking about God's Sovereignty of all things. It will become important to categorize verses that we are seeing, so we know how it relates to God. Open Theists do argue about God's meticulous control. Other scriptures to consider: (Colossians 1:16f, 18f, 20) John 15:5 Acts 17:28 John 1:3 (all imho, stand-alone verses for this specific discussion, meaning you can check me for context, but I believe they are straight forward). Here are a few more for your consideration:

In this... you are now agreeing with Open Theism. Open Theism never contests God's Sovereignty. It actually amplifies it. You are saved. Thus... this is a Theological matter of discussion. I am employing an extensive study that I have linked your name to in each post to approach you from a directly biblical perspective that is continuative with all scripture.

Perhaps, as I read the verses you have provided, I must state... I fully agree with everyone of them, but I think our theological lenses ar

We each have our proof verses and they will be extensively dropped as we draw up Iron. However, I'm employing the Genesis to Revelation overview that cannot be questioned. This is why I have dropped non quoted posts to you with literal excerpts from scripture that have continuitive biblical implications that span All scripture.

This part needs some unpacking and coherency elucidated. Originally, GloryDaz was discussing the possibility that the freewill of man may not have been the gift of Satan, but of God. For me, I agree, but I see our freewill as something different in intent of God. We have to see it that way. What did it look like before the Fall? That's the discussion GD and I were having. I agree with her that we had some form of perfect will before the Fall. I see it similarly to that of a negative. Our Freewill became polarized where we now were slaves to sin and death, and no longer slaves to God and life.

Here is where we start to theologically duel. You are using the word "Free Will" with the lens of your theology. This is expected. I will only state this. Please site one bible verse that implies God denies us our "Freedom", from your perspective. Please find one bible verse that implies The False Morning Star encourages our "Freedom", from your perspective.

There is a theological polarity shift and I know where it is coming from. I would recommend that you read the words I have posted towards you concerning the serpent. There is AN "original sin" that scripture specifies all throughout itself. But it, "in my inflated and boastful opinion" ( ) is in-congruent with the "Doctrine of Original Sin" that you theologically embrace. I have a point, but I am checking to see where we need to start. I admit that I may learn and change my view by the end of our discussion, or we will remain as we started discussion, but I indeed meant to say what I said in light of what GloryDaz pointed out.

As I ever state, man was truly free before the Fall. His/her one 'do not' had to do with that which would kill them rather than that which could be considered a restraint. In this sense, it touches on sin as a deprivation. One common identification of sin is that I have read is "the absence of God." John 15:5 tells us that 'without Him, we can do nothing.' The sin in the garden separates man from God. You ask how that is possible for a omnipresent God. Rather, I gave an analogy (and they always break-down when pressed) of a jar and everything in it as represented by all that exists. John 15:5 I intimated rather, that sin removes the life-giving Savior from our lives. Such does not mean a lack of omnipresence, but rather a lack of life. John 1:4

This is the important point of the matter. I agree... but I think you miss what John 15:5 and John 1:4 also says. Jesus called Himself the "life". This is not just about salvation. This is about the fact that God is the very "Breath of Life" within us. He was explaining that He is the very LIFE within us. This was the same as Him saying (John 10:30 and John 14:9). He also says... John 10:37

This being said... If you deny this... we will be limited in scope, during our discussion. If the very Spirit or "Breath" that binds us to life were to leave our body... what happens to us?

I am differentiating the presence of Life within all creation that is the literal sustaining presence of God, from the Eternal connection to God that we receive as (Eph. 1:13)

Do you disagree with any of this? Before you answer consider this verse (Eccl. 12:7)

one last point... Habakkuk 1:13 ties directly to Job 13:16 and bolsters [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] point perfectly.

The following links are to posts that I made for you to see if we are on track with the "basics".

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...for-Feedback&p=4970110&viewfull=1#post4970110

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...for-Feedback&p=4970069&viewfull=1#post4970069

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...for-Feedback&p=4970065&viewfull=1#post4970065

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I don't know about again, but it means the same thing it did to Nebuchadnezzar.

Verse please... I have an idea that you are mixing typification with literal revelation.

 

[Lon]

In this... you are now agreeing with Open Theism. Open Theism never contests God's Sovereignty. It actually amplifies it. You are saved. Thus... this is a Theological matter of discussion. I am employing an extensive study that I have linked your name to in each post to approach you from a directly biblical perspective that is continuative with all scripture.

Not to be confrontational, but I don't and haven't believed you to be open theist as I understand them. You hold a lot of ideas that are eschewed by Open Theists. I've discussed these issues with them at great length. Might I suggest a large homework endeavor? Read through Open Theism 1, 2, and 3 To me, they are readable, conversational, and informative. I'm ever unsure that you truly know the tenants of Open Theism. You admittedly agree to some differences but you need to know when your theology would no longer leave you in the Open camp.
Another thread that I think would help, is AMR's talking points of an Open Theism/Calvinism debate.

Perhaps, as I read the verses you have provided, I must state... I fully agree with everyone of them, but I think our theological lenses ar

We each have our proof verses and they will be extensively dropped as we draw up Iron. However, I'm employing the Genesis to Revelation overview that cannot be questioned. This is why I have dropped non quoted posts to you with literal excerpts from scripture that have continuitive biblical implications that span All scripture.

Apologies, the coh erency issue again. I will need it completed to pack and understand what you are saying here. It looks like it may have been a formatting issue, as one of the sentences is incomplete.

Here is where we start to theologically duel. You are using the word "Free Will" with the lens of your theology. This is expected. I will only state this. Please site one bible verse that implies God denies us our "Freedom", from your perspective. Please find one bible verse that implies The False Morning Star encourages our "Freedom", from your perspective.

See some of the verses used in this thread: Psalm 14:3 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Isaiah 14:4 (note I don't agree with a number of the conclusions in that thread, just believe he is giving a lot of verses to consider, all dedicated toward this requests, so believe it appropriate for the link and perusal of verses regarding the matter). For me, Matthew 6:24 seems to indicate that our will is rather in bondage more than it is free. In addition, I also discussed this in the prior post and gave scriptures. Consider for a moment that the Apostle Paul, I believe, called 'free will' the 'flesh' throughout Romans and Galatians etc. Galatians 5:17

There is a theological polarity shift and I know where it is coming from. I would recommend that you read the words I have posted towards you concerning the serpent. There is AN "original sin" that scripture specifies all throughout itself. But it, "in my inflated and boastful opinion" ( ) is in-congruent with the "Doctrine of Original Sin" that you theologically embrace. I have a point, but I am checking to see where we need to start. I admit that I may learn and change my view by the end of our discussion, or we will remain as we started discussion, but I indeed meant to say what I said in light of what GloryDaz pointed out.

I think I grasp a bit of this. Our context for this was regarding how much of our will was God's intent. As I discussed with GloryDaz, there is a sense that man had choice. He could call the animals, whatever he desired, for example. This isn't exactly what I have ever been against or believe is the "gift of Satan." Rather, specifically, it is the knowledge of Good and Evil, the choice of evil, and the death/disconnection from God.

It is my belief, that Adam and Eve 'surely died' the day they ate the fruit. The disconnect was immediate. Their whole paradigm for 'free' will choice became to polar opposite of what it had been before: They were no longer capable of doing God's will, specifically because that connection was severed. Adam and Eve found what they were now connected to, was sin and death. It was their new master and controlled their will, necessarily, as I understand scriptures. Galatians 5:1 Romans 8:2 John 15:5

This is the important point of the matter. I agree... but I think you miss what John 15:5 and John 1:4 also says. Jesus called Himself the "life". This is not just about salvation. This is about the fact that God is the very "Breath of Life" within us. He was explaining that He is the very LIFE within us. This was the same as Him saying (John 10:30 and John 14:9). He also says... John 10:37

Absolutely. I don't believe I missed that at all. Rather, I believe it points to God being Sovereign over His Creation. Psalm 103:19 Proverbs 16:33

This being said... If you deny this... we will be limited in scope, during our discussion. If the very Spirit or "Breath" that binds us to life were to leave our body... what happens to us?

I don't deny this. The Open Theist denies this and it is such as this that makes me believe you rather try to hold onto some Open Theism beliefs while eschew or denying other tenants of their belief. Such is not a terrible thing, but if I can show you where you agree and disagree with them, such will serve you well. On this point, I don't believe you are an Open Theist. You are on other points. Some of your thoughts will gel over time, because some beliefs logically drive other beliefs for consistency. It depends, I think, on how much an inconsistency in our respective theologies bothers us, as to whether we change our systematic theologies much, over time. Unless there is a crisis of understanding, we tend to keep our respective systematic theologies in tact. In a nutshell, I'd suspect you will keep some elements of Open Theism in your thinking, but you definitely carry ideas against Open Theology in your thinking as well. Again, I hope such serves you.

I am differentiating the presence of Life within all creation that is the literal sustaining presence of God, from the Eternal connection to God that we receive as (Eph. 1:13)

Do you disagree with any of this? Before you answer consider this verse (Eccl. 12:7)

No, I don't disagree. Rather, such is grace, that God would support the world, though dying, that it/we might have life. It looks biblical to me. Romans 8:22-24

one last point... Habakkuk 1:13 ties directly to Job 13:16 and bolsters @glorydaz point perfectly.

The context again is that God can be omnipresent without giving life. That is, a disconnection on our part, does not negate His presence, but rather His life. I agree that Grace allows for a connectivity of life on God's part toward redemption (again Romans 8:22-24). -Lon

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Not to be confrontational, but I don't and haven't believed you to be open theist as I understand them. You hold a lot of ideas that are eschewed by Open Theists. I've discussed these issues with them at great length. Might I suggest a large homework endeavor? Read through Open Theism 1, 2, and 3 To me, they are readable, conversational, and informative. I'm ever unsure that you truly know the tenants of Open Theism. You admittedly agree to some differences but you need to know when your theology would no longer leave you in the Open camp.
Another thread that I think would help, is AMR's talking points of an Open Theism/Calvinism debate.

I hold to the basic tenets of Open Theism. I recognize that within camps of theologies there are differences in opinion. But... Open Theology is "Open". It's tenets are not "closed", nor will they ever be.

The underlying principles are set forth clearly. God chose to "limit" His foreknowledge. God is specifically relational to man on an intimate level. The Future is "Open".

This is exactly what I am saying. I have expressed this in many ways here. I further cite that our differing understandings of "Free Will" are the direct evidence.

Apologies, the coh erency issue again. I will need it completed to pack and understand what you are saying here. It looks like it may have been a formatting issue, as one of the sentences is incomplete.

Which sentence is missing? I sometimes lead into scripture and then use scripture to complete the idea.

See some of the verses used in this thread: Psalm 14:3 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Isaiah 14:4 (note I don't agree with a number of the conclusions in that thread, just believe he is giving a lot of verses to consider, all dedicated toward this requests, so believe it appropriate for the link and perusal of verses regarding the matter). For me, Matthew 6:24 seems to indicate that our will is rather in bondage more than it is free. In addition, I also discussed this in the prior post and gave scriptures. Consider for a moment that the Apostle Paul, I believe, called 'free will' the 'flesh' throughout Romans and Galatians etc. Galatians 5:17

I would say that the very word "Free Will" is being mis-defined by one of us. I know which one of us, each of us believes that is. I am struggling to unhitch you from looking through the lenses of what "Collective" people state. Within Reform... You have theologians that butt heads continually with their words. Calvin is a type of "reconciliation" for this. However... There are multiple forms of "Calvinism". I don't ask you to read through every volume of those books, before I ascertain your views. I would hope you gather that I would like to quit seeing references to other peoples words. We are here at this moment and we are discussing this topic.

I think I grasp a bit of this. Our context for this was regarding how much of our will was God's intent. As I discussed with GloryDaz, there is a sense that man had choice. He could call the animals, whatever he desired, for example. This isn't exactly what I have ever been against or believe is the "gift of Satan." Rather, specifically, it is the knowledge of Good and Evil, the choice of evil, and the death/disconnection from God.

It is my belief, that Adam and Eve 'surely died' the day they ate the fruit. The disconnect was immediate. Their whole paradigm for 'free' will choice became to polar opposite of what it had been before: They were no longer capable of doing God's will, specifically because that connection was severed. Adam and Eve found what they were now connected to, was sin and death. It was their new master and controlled their will, necessarily, as I understand scriptures. Galatians 5:1 Romans 8:2 John 15:5

This is where you see the methods of my madness. What I am discussing is intended to draw you to what the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is and why it is innocent. It is actually the "Serpent" that is the Originator of this mess. The discussion ultimately comes full circle in a scriptural way... but there is scriptural message that must be known first, to see the depth of Paul's words in a specific place.

I'm looking for common ground. We know where we disagree. But I am trying to see where we agree. Then I am proposing to let scripture close our divide.

Absolutely. I don't believe I missed that at all. Rather, I believe it points to God being Sovereign over His Creation. Psalm 103:19 Proverbs 16:33
I don't deny this. The Open Theist denies this and it is such as this that makes me believe you rather try to hold onto some Open Theism beliefs while eschew or denying other tenants of their belief. Such is not a terrible thing, but if I can show you where you agree and disagree with them, such will serve you well. On this point, I don't believe you are an Open Theist. You are on other points. Some of your thoughts will gel over time, because some beliefs logically drive other beliefs for consistency. It depends, I think, on how much an inconsistency in our respective theologies bothers us, as to whether we change our systematic theologies much, over time. Unless there is a crisis of understanding, we tend to keep our respective systematic theologies in tact. In a nutshell, I'd suspect you will keep some elements of Open Theism in your thinking, but you definitely carry ideas against Open Theology in your thinking as well. Again, I hope such serves you.

I'm purposely dodging the parts where we would leave this specific discussion to see what others have to say. I'm not debating them, nor are you. In the rest... Your points about points driving points are exactly ... ahem... on point.

I would suggest that Open Theism is misunderstood on a deep level. It's core tenets are clear and I agree with them. It also appears we are speaking the same theological understanding on some critical points... so we are in positive step.

No, I don't disagree. Rather, such is grace, that God would support the world, though dying, that it/we might have life. It looks biblical to me. Romans 8:22-24

This is good.

The context again is that God can be omnipresent without giving life. That is, a disconnection on our part, does not negate His presence, but rather His life. I agree that Grace allows for a connectivity of life on God's part toward redemption (again Romans 8:22-24). -Lon

Excellent... We are right on track... If you could please simply quote the portions of my unquoted statements towards you that you feel are incomplete... I will respond back and complete them. Those links have a very specific "point" and direction.

We seem to be discussing matters very well and clearly.

All Christian Love, Sincere Scriptural Searching and Respect,

- EE

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...for-Feedback&p=4970110&viewfull=1#post4970110

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...for-Feedback&p=4970069&viewfull=1#post4970069

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...for-Feedback&p=4970065&viewfull=1#post4970065

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

This does not sound like a God who has limited foreknowledge....


Isaiah 65:24

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I don't know about again, but it means the same thing it did to Nebuchadnezzar.

:thumb:

 

[Lon]

I hold to the basic tenets of Open Theism. I recognize that within camps of theologies there are differences in opinion. But... Open Theology is "Open". It's tenets are not "closed", nor will they ever be.

The underlying principles are set forth clearly. God chose to "limit" His foreknowledge. God is specifically relational to man on an intimate level. The Future is "Open".

This is exactly what I am saying. I have expressed this in many ways here. I further cite that our differing understandings of "Free Will" are the direct evidence.

If I may be so bold, I'd suggest you 'identify' with Open Theism, rather than hold all their beliefs and tenants (and specifically): as I understand Open Theology in my ten years discussing issues with them and tenants of their belief. I'll go further: I believe a few of your theology beliefs incongruent with Open Theology (again, as best I understand them from ten years of discussion). I know, per fact, you hold views counter to a consistent Open Theology. It might be helpful to mention that AMR and others too, have noted the discrepancy, it isn't just me. Caveate: Open Theism has never produced a coherent and systematic theology, to date.

Which sentence is missing? I sometimes lead into scripture and then use scripture to complete the idea.

I quoted it. I had to double-check as this cold is messing me up, but there was an incomplete sentence and I couldn't tell where one idea led to the other because of it.

I would say that the very word "Free Will" is being mis-defined by one of us. I know which one of us, each of us believes that is. I am struggling to unhitch you from looking through the lenses of what "Collective" people state. Within Reform... You have theologians that butt heads continually with their words. Calvin is a type of "reconciliation" for this. However... There are multiple forms of "Calvinism". I don't ask you to read through every volume of those books, before I ascertain your views. I would hope you gather that I would like to quit seeing references to other peoples words. We are here at this moment and we are discussing this topic.

I guess, in and of itself, in that light, you are correct, that our definition and understanding of the greater 'free'-dom of the will is in dispute. Maybe not mis-defined, but rather that it is such a broad-term idea, that it isn't accurate enough. I actually very much dislike the word because of how unclear it actually is. Rather, I believe we have a will, and a will, because of the fall, that chooses against God's intention. All such, are necessary qualifiers concerning the will. "Free" is just too over-reaching imho.

This is where you see the methods of my madness. What I am discussing is intended to draw you to what the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is and why it is innocent. It is actually the "Serpent" that is the Originator of this mess. The discussion ultimately comes full circle in a scriptural way... but there is scriptural message that must be known first, to see the depth of Paul's words in a specific place.

I'm looking for common ground. We know where we disagree. But I am trying to see where we agree. Then I am proposing to let scripture close our divide.

Very much the expression and inner-machinations of a global thinker. I don't tend to post this way any longer on TOL, but I used to. I had a one-on-one with Knight that clearly displays my global mind. We come at ideas as a spiral, as it were: We grab ideas along the way, while steering to the center of that spiral. It has a lot of good critical thinking skills employed in such, but those who take a direct approach would accuse us of being drunk, incoherent, or random. I can't remember the percentages, but there are not many that think like this. On a good note, it is the mark of a good mind, because it is a mind that is able to juggle ideas and keep them in mind until it gets where it needs to be. As such, we tend to be a little more thorough and certainly more convinced when we hit the target idea.

I am seeing you juggling the serpent, the tree of knowledge of good and evil (which if I am reading you correctly, you posit it, is NOT evil in and of itself), as well as the intent of the serpent who was "most crafty." I'm not sure where to jump in to help you collect those thoughts. In addition, I'd carry the idea that 'an ability to choose otherwise' would be foreign to God's perfect creation. As best as I understand Adam and Eve's demeanor, they never would have eaten from the forbidden tree sans the serpent, hence 'he was more crafty.' 2 Corinthians 11:3 says 'bedeviling' or 'trickery.'

This is good.

I trimmed the rest of this, regarding our agreements and mutuality. Because of such, we are more discussing than debating. Giving counter ideas, rather than posturing. Sometimes it goes this way, but I always aim for it on TOL. Some will not have it, but I generally think it the better discussion material on TOL (I've actually enjoyed reading some of the flamboyant and heated debate on TOL, though). Toward that endeavor, thank you and His blessings. In our Christ, -Lon

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Verse please... I have an idea that you are mixing typification with literal revelation.

Nebuchadnezzar.....

I am pleased to tell you what has happened. The Most High God has done miraculous signs and wonders for me. His miraculous signs are great. His wonders are mighty. His kingdom will last forever. His rule will never end. - Daniel 4:2-3

I was at home in my palace. I was content and very successful. But I had a dream that made me afraid. I was lying on my bed. Then dreams and visions passed through my mind. They terrified me. - Daniel 4:4-5

“Here are the visions I saw while I was lying on my bed. I looked up and saw a tree standing in the middle of the land. It was very tall. It had grown to be large and strong. Its top touched the sky. It could be seen anywhere on earth. Its leaves were beautiful. It had a lot of fruit on it. It provided enough food for people and animals. Under the tree, the wild animals found shade. The birds of the air lived in its branches. Every creature was fed from that tree.
“While I was still lying on my bed, I looked up. In my visions, I saw a holy messenger. He was coming down from heaven. He called out in a loud voice. He said, ‘Cut the tree down. Break off its branches. Strip its leaves off. Scatter its fruit. Let the animals that are under it run away. Let the birds that are in its branches fly off. But leave the stump with its roots in the ground. Let it stay in the field. Put a band of iron and bronze around it.
“ ‘Let King Nebuchadnezzar become wet with the dew of heaven. Let him live like the animals among the plants of the earth. Let him no longer have the mind of a man. Instead, let him be given the mind of an animal. Let him stay that way until seven periods of time pass by.
“ ‘The decision is announced by holy messengers. So all who are alive will know that the Most High God is King. He rules over all of the kingdoms of men. He gives them to anyone He wants. Sometimes He puts the least important men in charge of them.’ “- Daniel 4:10-17

Daniel tells the dream....

“My King, you are that tree! You have become great and strong. Your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky. Your rule has spread to all parts of the earth.” - Daniel 4:22

“My King and master, here is what your dream means. The Most High God has given an order against you. You will be driven away from people. You will live like the wild animals. You will eat grass just as cattle do. You will become wet with the dew of heaven. Seven periods of time will pass by for you. Then you will recognize that the Most High God rules over all of the kingdoms of men. He gives them to anyone he wants.
“But he gave a command to leave the stump of the tree along with its roots. That means your kingdom will be given back to you. It will happen when you recognize that the God of heaven rules.
“So, my king, I hope you will accept my advice. Stop being sinful. Do what is right. Give up your evil practices. Show kindness to those who are being treated badly. Then perhaps things will continue to go well with you.” - Daniel 4:24-27

Back to Neb.....

All of that happened to me. It took place twelve months later. I was walking on the roof of my palace in Babylon. I said, “Isn’t this the great Babylon I have built as a place for my royal palace? I used my mighty power to build it. It shows how glorious my majesty is.” - Daniel 4:28-30

I was still speaking when a voice was heard from heaven. It said, “King Nebuchadnezzar, here is what has been ordered concerning you. Your royal authority has been taken from you. You will be driven away from people. You will live like the wild animals. You will eat grass just as cattle do. Seven periods of time will pass by for you. Then you will recognize that the Most High God rules over all of the kingdoms of men. He gives them to anyone He wants.”
What had been said about me came true at once. I was driven away from people. I ate grass just as cattle do. My body became wet with the dew of heaven. I stayed that way until my hair grew like the feathers of an eagle. My nails became like the claws of a bird. - Daniel 4:31-33

At the end of that time I, Nebuchadnezzar, looked up toward heaven. My mind became clear again. Then I praised the Most High God. I gave honor and glory to the One who lives forever. His rule will last forever. His kingdom will never end. He considers all of the nations on earth to be nothing. He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven. He does what He wants with the nations of the earth. No one can hold His hand back. No one can say to Him, “What have you done?”
My honor and glory were returned to me when my mind became clear again. The glory of my kingdom was given back to me. My advisers and nobles came to me. And I was put back on my throne. I became even greater than I had been before.
Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, give praise and honor and glory to the King of heaven. Everything he does is right. All of his ways are fair. He is able to bring down those who live proudly. - Daniel 4:34-37

 

[jamie]

:thumb: Perfect.

 

[Lon]

Realize the @ feature only gives me one link in any given day. After clicking it once, if there are other @'s they disappear from an alert. I had only seen one @ on any given day. They are good to get an attention for maybe one or two items a week then, for me, accordingly -Lon
I wanted to try and catch up on a of these:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...for-Feedback&p=4970110&viewfull=1#post4970110

"Dragon" yes. Revelation 12:9

@Lon


There is a terrible misconception about this crafty devil... It is classically taught that he was fallen and cast out in Genesis. But this is a mistake. I have to prove this to you.

So, we will be looking into 3 classic information DNA Questions.

:
Job 1:6-12 has Satan going back and forth from heaven to earth. Isaiah 14:12 has him, by name 'falling star/lucifer', to earth and Ezekiel 28:6-19
A question from my seminary days: "Were these strictly about the king of Tyre, or was the king a type of Satan?"
I'm not sure what the bottom-line is for discussion about the Fall in the Garden and regarding our Free-will. I'll leave this to you to tie up any loose end. -Lon

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...for-Feedback&p=4970069&viewfull=1#post4970069

Good verse for not reviling one another either. We are ever seeking a righteous fruit, and thus must rather speak accurately, than deriding. God has shown us that whatever is common with a snake, is the character of the devourer.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...for-Feedback&p=4970065&viewfull=1#post4970065

Addressed this one here

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This does not sound like a God who has limited foreknowledge....


Isaiah 65:24

24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

Now, mind you... this is cut and paste from one of my earlier posts from this thread... but...

Question... How is God's foreknowledge limited?

There are multiple facets to the logical answer.

(1) Prophetic Architecture (The Architects Ultimate Plans)
This future is settled by the Father (Architect)

Example... All Biblical Prophecy

(2) Nations and Tribes
This future is deeply settled yet marginally relational by a co-collaborated effort of the (Temporal and A-Temporal) Existence of our Omnipresent God.

Example... Niniva.

(3) Prophets, Kings, Rulers, Anointed Servants (Of GOD)...
NOT... {The Wicked Kings and Rulers, or vessels that were anointed by the Adversary of GOD (Accuser)} ... These would be recognized via the Temporal and A-Temporal co-collaboration and utilized and then put down for God's purpose... yet they "Appointed themselves or were appointed by wicked people.")

(3) continued from broken thought... Back to those (of God)
Their future is mostly settled, yet still a co-collaborated effort of the (Temporal and A-Temporal) Existence of our Omnipresent God.

David, Isaiah, Daniel... etc.

(4) Individual People
This future is not settled... though... Salvational Assurance claimed... indeed settles our ULTIMATE FUTURE... ( :

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

(4) Individual People
This future is not settled... though... Salvational Assurance claimed... indeed settles our ULTIMATE FUTURE... ( :

:cheers:

I like the way RBBI told Meshak.

Am saved, am being saved and will be saved to the uttermost.

 

[freelight]

Segways in the Holy Ghost........

Segways in the Holy Ghost........

Whether freewill exists or not is an entirely different discussion, lest you convince all the band members to take band next semester.
You would need scriptures to prove freewill a gift. Mind you, I believe it a 'gift' but not from God.

Hi Lon,

I see free will as granted, within scripture and within everyday life experience. If you know your bible, and have followed threads dealing with free will, I've already shared many which clearly show God giving man a choice between life and death, blessings and curses, even calling heaven and earth as a witness, and then further encourages his people to CHOOSE life. I've shared enough in the Calvinist/free will threads, and any bible student ought to be fully aware of God giving man the freedom to CHOOSE. This freedom to choose could NOT be a gift from the so called Fall or from Satan,....since its native to man's being, intrinsically given by the Creator as possessed clearly by Adam & Eve before any so called 'Fall'. Thru this freedom to choose we can choose LIFE, so how can this liberty NOT be the avenue of blessing, while free enterprise allows us to engage all of life's opportunities, the full gamut of experience, which appears to be what life is all about. Even in Calvinism men are still 'choosing' God by his irresistible grace.....they could not be 'elect' if they do NOT respond to the gospel,...so salvation is definitely including the free response and choosing to be saved,....since most hold to compatibilist freedom. There is NO salvation still, without man responding to the call! Split hairs however you like

This was the 'lie' in the garden. "You will be like God." Man was 'like' God in a perfected state. Breaking the image didn't help, not at all.

Thru Christ the image and likeness is restored. (see: Adam Kadmon, Last Adam archetype, New Man prototype, etc.) This brings us back into our native condition of God-likeness (divine imaging), whereby we are the light of that glory mirrored in the perfect image of the Son. 'God' is LIGHT, and that true image and likeness reflects the Original Light. Furthermore, if our spirit is quickened, made alive by God, and filled by the Spirit of Deity,...then we have the very spirit of truth within us,....an actual individualized spirit-fragment of eternity-infinity. Salvation, restoration, returning man to his original state in relationship with God, is what any atonement or redemption is about, returning us to 'at-one-ment' with LIFE. In that realization, the soul and 'God' are One. - this is the endeavor of all lovers of God, to be one with the Lover. Its also a trinity of....love, lover and beloved

You are putting a bandaid on cancer and calling it good.

I like to say I'm recognizing 'Original Blessing' (Creation Spirituality) over the concept of 'Original Sin'(which demeans man with 'total depravity', etc.). This does not overlook the problem of sin or the evil inclination in man, but recognizes the good (divine potential) in him as well, his power to repent, receive divine help, and prosper in the way of God-consciousness.

Pelagianism has been labelled heresy by ALL of Christianity. There is no need of a Savior in Pelagianism and barely in semi-pelagianism.

Well, Pelagius maybe had a point, but no matter the human power or ability, all is given by OR allowed by God,....and it matters not if a large concensus of people reject a person or doctrine. That doesn't guarantee their belief to be free from error or delusion to varying degrees as well. You sometimes have to give those 'semi' folks some wiggle room as well,...as sometimes we may fall into those 'semi' catagories showing the varying degrees or dimensional nuances our views can sometimes take. And don't forget,...points of view are subject to change. Only Deity Itself is changeless in essence, all else subject to be transformed

 

[Lon]

Hi Lon,

I see free will as granted, within scripture and within everyday life experience.

But the autonomy is the killer, literally. John 15:5 John 3 is given to explain to us, that 'hell' isn't God's intention, it is our creation. We made the mess. No matter how high Jonathan Livingston Seagull flew, I was seeing the gutters at the other end of the city. I grew up in that mess. I know, per fact, God didn't create that, nor desired or desires it.

If you know your bible, and have followed threads dealing with free will, I've already shared many which clearly show God giving man a choice between life and death, blessings and curses, even calling heaven and earth as a witness, and then further encourages his people to CHOOSE life. I've shared enough in the Calvinist/free will threads, and any bible student ought to be fully aware of God giving man the freedom to CHOOSE. This freedom to choose could NOT be a gift from the so called Fall or from Satan,....since its native to man's being, intrinsically given by the Creator as possessed clearly by Adam & Eve before any so called 'Fall'. Thru this freedom to choose we can choose LIFE, so how can this liberty NOT be the avenue of blessing, while free enterprise allows us to engage all of life's opportunities, the full gamut of experience, which appears to be what life is all about. Even in Calvinism men are still 'choosing' God by his irresistible grace.....they could not be 'elect' if they do NOT respond to the gospel,...so salvation is definitely including the free response and choosing to be saved,....since most hold to compatibilist freedom. There is NO salvation still, without man responding to the call! Split hairs however you like

There is no hair splitting as far as I know the scriptures. Jesus was very clear to Nicodemus: "You must be born-again." Nicodemus didn't get it. He was satisfied to go and try to live life with his will, free or otherwise. We cannot born-again ourselves. I hate when the term is loosely thrown around as if our doing something could make us a 'born -again' vegan or a 'born-again' jogger. It is exactly opposite of what Jesus was telling Nicodemus. Only a being able to give life, can give the renewed needed life in a person who is born in the flesh, with all its trappings. John 1:4;14:6; 15:5

Thru Christ the image and likeness is restored. (see: Adam Kadmon, Last Adam archetype, New Man prototype, etc.) This brings us back into our native condition of God-likeness (divine imaging), whereby we are the light of that glory mirrored in the perfect image of the Son. 'God' is LIGHT, and that true image and likeness reflects the Original Light. Furthermore, if our spirit is quickened, made alive by God, and filled by the Spirit of Deity,...then we have the very spirit of truth within us,....an actual individualized spirit-fragment of eternity-infinity. Salvation, restoration, returning man to his original state in relationship with God, is what any atonement or redemption is about, returning us to 'at-one-ment' with LIFE. In that realization, the soul and 'God' are One. - this is the endeavor of all lovers of God, to be one with the Lover. Its also a trinity of....love, lover and beloved

This is a denial as far as I assess. I know the evils from my heart. As I said, I grew up on the wrong side, the bad side, the ugly side, the harmful side. Goodness in me, that overcomes all, is the Only God. There is no other god. There is no other life. There is absolutely no way to escape other than to call upon the Only God who exists. There is literally, no one else. Acts 4:12

I like to say I'm recognizing 'Original Blessing' (Creation Spirituality) over the concept of 'Original Sin'(which demeans man with 'total depravity', etc.). This does not overlook the problem of sin or the evil inclination in man, but recognizes the good (divine potential) in him as well, his power to repent, receive divine help, and prosper in the way of God-consciousness.

Ever hurt anyone, PJ? Will you ever again? It isn't 'supposed' to happen. Total simply means 'immersed.' A bad man can give his son a loaf of bread. A broken clock is right two times a day. Settling is, to me, far worse than the reality. 2 Corinthians 5:17 John 15:5 Isaiah 43:11

Well, Pelagius maybe had a point, but no matter the human power or ability, all is given by OR allowed by God,....and it matters not if a large concensus of people reject a person or doctrine. That doesn't guarantee their belief to be free from error or delusion to varying degrees as well. You sometimes have to give those 'semi' folks some wiggle room as well,...as sometimes we may fall into those 'semi' catagories showing the varying degrees or dimensional nuances our views can sometimes take. And don't forget,...points of view are subject to change. Only Deity Itself is changeless in essence, all else subject to be transformed

Can't. A half-truth is like a piece of candy in the dirt. It is like trying to pick up a piece of chewing gum of the street because it still has some good in it. A summation of your and my conversations is about our 'godliness.' For me, necessarily a relationship with the only God, permanently. John 15:5 You rather seem to have and want an 'autonomy' without accountability or admission. It is where you get the 'free-spirit' new age philosophy. I am telling you, it CANNOT exist. John 15:5 A balloon, without a tether, is destroyed in the atmosphere. A man, untethered to God, is destroyed by the Fall into sin and death. There is only, but one way. Jesus said, few ever find it...... we must be 'born-again.' Ephesians 2:8&9 There is no other way. He is exactly what we need. The lie in the garden was that we didn't and don't need Him. John 15:5 "Cannot do any one thing, without Me." Lon 1 Corinthians 15:50

 

[Right Divider]

But the autonomy is the killer, literally. John 15:5 John 3 is given to explain to us, that 'hell' isn't God's intention, it is our creation.

Scripture?