Calling all Open Theists for Feedback

[jamie]

Since we will "be like Angels". We can now say... It will be Angels and us "like Angels".

We will judge the sinful angels at the Last Day.

Only God is immortal, not angels and not humans.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus said unbelievers will be judged by his word at the Last Day.

We will need to teach them Jesus' word before they can be judged by it.

You must mean we are to preach the Gospel.

Why would we need to teach? John 14:26KJV

At this time Jesus is not judging the world and neither are we.

Maybe you should clarify what you mean by the "world". We will never judge the world as Jesus will, so you need to decide what you mean by judge.

 

[glorydaz]

We will judge the sinful angels at the Last Day.

Scripture tells us God will judge the angels.

Isaiah 24:21-22KJV, 2 Peter 2:4KJV, Jude 1:6KJV.

Again, the word "JUDGE" can also mean to discern, to govern or rule over.

It's important when using a word like "judge" that you consider the context and support from the rest of scripture lest you lead someone astray.

 

[freelight]

Freedom to choose.......

Freedom to choose.......

Regarding freewill, yes, I'd like to see those scriptures. I don't believe our freewill is at all a gift of God, but rather a direct result of the Fall. "Man has now become like us..."

There are ample scriptures showing free will, besides personal experience complimented with rational logic - you're making choices moment to moment.....

Free will must be a gift for with it you have the power to choose life or death. Without it you have no free enterprise or responsibility, no acquisition of true learning, growth or evolution. What is life if you are not genuinely free?

You will note the serpent's wisdom was confirmed by God for he spoke truly about man's endowment of gnosis enlightening him to know both good and evil. I consider knowledge a greater blessing than ignorance, don't you?

'Original Sin' doctrine has been a blight on mankind keeping him demeaned and belittled. The Fall concept is figurative, as is much of the Garden of Eden story, while 'total depravity' is a twisted offspring of it. Man's free will is a given, with its potential of good and evil choices, since inclinations include both good and evil, and the entire spectrum of possibilities.

While evil has its own penalties and suffering, the original goodness and blessing of the Creator and Creation outshines any evil IMO. Life in this dimension is for 'learning'. There can be no learning without free agency, multiple choice alternatives, diverse opportunity.

The image and likeness of Deity in man further goes to prove and pontentialize the creativity of God in man to fulfill and maximize his potential in divine will and love. Man is the individualized expression of God in form, so man as a partakers of the divine nature expresses 'God'. This divine image is further renewed and glorified in us thru Christ, whose body we are...how bout we start lifting up the Christ within....to the glory of God, hailing the Most High for his goodness and blessing which is ours as well in him? God is not divided, He is One.

 

[Lon]

There are ample scriptures showing free will, besides personal experience complimented with rational logic - you're making choices moment to moment.....

Free will must be a gift for with it you have the power to choose life or death. Without it you have no free enterprise or responsibility, no acquisition of true learning, growth or evolution. What is life if you are not genuinely free?

Whether freewill exists or not is an entirely different discussion, lest you convince all the band members to take band next semester.
You would need scriptures to prove freewill a gift. Mind you, I believe it a 'gift' but not from God.

You will note the serpent's wisdom was confirmed by God for he spoke truly about man's endowment of gnosis enlightening him to know both good and evil. I consider knowledge a greater blessing than ignorance, don't you?

However brilliant I am, think I am, or am not, no, in a word. None of it can save me. God chose the foolishness of this world. The sick of the world. Nobody else needs Him.

'Original Sin' doctrine has been a blight on mankind keeping him demeaned and belittled. The Fall concept is figurative, as is much of the Garden of Eden story, while 'total depravity' is a twisted offspring of it. Man's free will is a given, with its potential of good and evil choices, since inclinations include both good and evil, and the entire spectrum of possibilities.

:nono: You cannot borg your way out of what is true. I cannot argue my way out of what is true. I only want to know what is true. I will deal with the uncomfortableness of what is true, rather than try and make up a story that better suits my need. That kind of philosophy and religion is fantasy. Scripture says if Christ isn't risen, we all are yet dead in our sins, without hope in the world. Bad news? You are dying. No Jonathan Livingston Seagull can take us beyond the confines. C.S. Lewis said we have eternity planted in us, but no chanting "I can fly, I can fly, I can fly" sprouts wings. It is a deluded fantasy.

While evil has its own penalties and suffering, the original goodness and blessing of the Creator and Creation outshines any evil IMO. Life in this dimension is for 'learning'. There can be no learning without free agency, multiple choice alternatives, diverse opportunity.

:nono: "Thy" will be done. "Thy kingdom come..."

The image and likeness of Deity in man further goes to prove and pontentialize the creativity of God in man to fulfill and maximize his potential in divine will and love. Man is the individualized expression of God in form, so man as a partakers of the divine nature expresses 'God'. This divine image is further renewed and glorified in us thru Christ, whose body we are...how bout we start lifting up the Christ within....to the glory of God, hailing the Most High for his goodness and blessing which is ours as well in him? God is not divided, He is One.

This was the 'lie' in the garden. "You will be like God." Man was 'like' God in a perfected state. Breaking the image didn't help, not at all. You are putting a bandaid on cancer and calling it good. Pelagianism has been labelled heresy by ALL of Christianity. There is no need of a Savior in Pelagianism and barely in semi-pelagianism.

 

[jamie]

Maybe you should clarify what you mean by the "world". We will never judge the world as Jesus will, so you need to decide what you mean by judge.

I mean the same thing as Paul when he said, "I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world." (1 Corinthians 5:9-10)

Paul also said, "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? (1 Corinthians 6:2-3)

 

[jamie]

You must mean we are to preach the Gospel.

Why would we need to teach? John 14:26KJV

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

The vast majority of people who have lived since Adam have never heard of Jesus Christ, the way to the Father. They will need someone to teach them the way.

Your ears shall hear a word behind you saying, "This is the way, walk in it" whenever you turn to the right hand or whenever you turn to the left. (Isaiah 30:21)​

 

[daqq]

We will never judge the world as Jesus will, so you need to decide what you mean by judge.

Originally Posted by jamie
The Father judges no one and Jesus does not judge unbelievers, we do.

Would you provide some verses on that?

The Father judges no one, (John 5:22).
The man "Jesus" judges no one, (John 8:15, John 12:47-48).
The Father has committed all judgment unto the Son, (John 5:22).
The man "Jesus" does not testify concerning himself, (John 5:31).
The man "Jesus" testifies concerning the Father and the Son.
The Son is therefore the only Judge.

The Father is not the Judge.
The man "Jesus" is not the Judge.
The Logos-Word that "Jesus" spoke is the Judge.
The man "Jesus" therefore cannot be the Logos-Word.
The Logos-Word is the only begotten Elohim-Son of Elohim, (John 1:18).
The Testimony of "Jesus" is never going to pass away, (Mt 24:35, Mk 13:31, Lk 21:33).
See my first post on page one of this thread and believe the Testimony of the Master.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

The vast majority of people who have lived since Adam have never heard of Jesus Christ, the way to the Father. They will need someone to teach them the way.

Your ears shall hear a word behind you saying, "This is the way, walk in it" whenever you turn to the right hand or whenever you turn to the left. (Isaiah 30:21)​

This has gotten too far off topic. I will leave my thank you's in tact, but Jamie... God Judges... we will only assist in one matter... possibly...

The book of Joel, linked to Zechariah and Revelation is the key. We'll save this for another OP.

The Day of the Lord will come with much blood. The People that assemble against Israel... as in the location and descendants of Jacob... Israel... will be the blood donors... so to speak.

We need to move on to OP topic.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I mean the same thing as Paul when he said, "I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world." (1 Corinthians 5:9-10)

Paul also said, "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? (1 Corinthians 6:2-3)

Again... this is now an entirety different OP topic. We need to get back to the original OP. I misunderstood you.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

We will judge the sinful angels at the Last Day.

Only God is immortal, not angels and not humans.

Um... all I can say is Israel is the key here. But this is way too far off topic... the Kingdom of Priests is a matter that is misunderstood... The nations gathered against Israel are not going to receive a "talking to".

The key to this is here...

(Ex. 32:26, 27f)

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

2) The Tree of Knowledge... Romans 7, Galatians, Hebrews, Ezekiel and Genesis have direct counter scripture to your perspective.

I will ask one counter question...

Who of all creation committed the original sin and what was it. I will drop on hint...
(Ezek. 28:17) (edited.. Lol... poor Ezra.. I meant Ezek.) ... This is the reason classical theology is in error. The counter doctrine is in my heart... but I will refrain from expressing it, if you are desiring to have peace here.

But, Lon, Adam was free to choose from the beginning.

Have you ever considered whether God was making a point by repeating the serpent's claim?

ie. knowing the effects of good and evil.

Gen. 3:4-5KJV And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

The original sin was the pride of life (with the lust of the flesh and eyes).

I think God alludes to it other places....like here. The Judges of Israel had the same problem.

Psalm 82:6-7KJV I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.​

As did the pharisees in John 10:34:KJV

Well worth the second glance. There is something in the original intent that is good. "Seeing what Adam would name them" while I don't think it was new to God, I think there was something within the creation that was designed for it. Right when I finish a software program, I have to run it to see if it does what I designed it to accomplish. I'm not much of a programmer, but that moment was always expectant, then satisfying.

Long of the short? You may be on to something and I'm intrigued to see where this thread might go along those lines. That and a thank you for something to chew on. Rats! I need some Jack Link's now! Where are my car keys!

This is our starting place for the OP direction, as of now.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ,

Let's start with your best proof text against me that you may or may not be taking into consideration.

(Is. 45:7}

It's your strongest proof text that God ordained all things and it supports much of the stance that you take. The Hebrew word for "Calamity" in Is. 45:7 is רָ֑ע. It can be translated into the word Evil. This is an epically important Hebrew word to bring to light. It can also be used as disaster and calamity.

The key to this is biblical continuity. The issue with saying Evil is the "Absence of God" as the well known allegory of the student and the physics professor brings up is that God is never absent from any place. When Adam and Eve are (Gen. 3:8) ... there is an issue. Even by Open Theism... God has a (temporal) Omniscience. This means that God cannot be "hidden" from.

This puts us on track to explore what [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] has broached. It is an odd exploration in scripture that is very important. I'm implying that it is now necessary to explore.

The False Morning Star that usurped his place of authority through deception is the place to start. We need to vindicate the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

In order to do this... we will use Romans 7. But, before we get there... we have to identify Evil per (John 5:39) and Christologically see if there is scripture that sheds light on the "(2 Co. 4:4), who seeks to mar the very Name of God.

This is going to plunge us into typification's in scripture of wicked usurpers.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION]

Let's start with the first place we meet the mysterious presence of the "Fallen one".

In Sunday school we meet a flying snake. That's what the felts usually have in the tree. Where is he? There he is...

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"​

We're going to go on a biblical journey that circles around this bugger and ends up right back at Gen. 3 and then binds to Rm. 7.

We must be careful as we speak of him, because of this verse... (Jude 1:9)

This is the Hebrew word for that crafty old liar... נָחָשׁ ... Ecclesiastes has a good point to make about this serpent (Ecc. 10:11)

There is a terrible misconception about this crafty devil... It is classically taught that he was fallen and cast out in Genesis. But this is a mistake. I have to prove this to you.

So, we will be looking into 3 classic information DNA Questions.

What
When
Why

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION]

When?

We have to understand that "SERPENT" is also "DRAGON". This lines us up to see the when.

If God does something... then it is clear that it is done correctly. In other words... If God casts out angels... they are perma-cast out. This is my assertion. We need biblical proof that the serpent wasn't cast from authority and heaven before the new testament for my assertions to hold.

Do we have proof that there was bad authority in place in heaven when Jesus walked among us?

We do!

(1 Co. 2:8) is an excellent place to start. (Acts 3:16f, 17f; Hos. 14:4) note that Acts and Hos. suggest that there was an ignorance that was yielded by deception of Israel ... Remember... God said... (Ps. 110:1) ... Well... bind this to ... (Gn. 3:15).

Because we know that Ps. 110:1 is about Jesus' Death, Burial and Resurrection and the results of it ... we now know just when the Serpents "Head was crushed".

But... was that serpent cast out from Heaven by this moment?

(Job 2:1f) seems to suggest not. If Satan was cast from Heaven by now, then why is he counted among the Angels here and directly addressed by God? Are there other places that are mysterious about this old dragon? (Zech. 3:1) ... note the oddity of this verse? He's at the right hand of "Joshua" and is clearly in Heaven. He's accusing "Joshua".

Isn't there some place in scripture that tells us an exact when?

Revelation 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.​

Here, we see Israel... The first bride of God... We know this is Israel, because she is pregnant with the CHILD and this CHILD is born through lineage of King David. The Twelve Stars are a dead give away too.

3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. ... And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.​

Now... this verse kicks up a notch and expresses that the Dragon is "In Heaven" and waiting to "Devour" the child that "Israel" is about to give birth to. The CHILD is constantly under assault by this Dragon. In-fact... it is literally given the literary picture of being at the very feet of the "Woman" giving "Birth" to the "Child" ... Waiting to gobble up the "Child".

We can now confidently say that this is occurring Pre-Jesus Christ in the (1 Tim. 3:16).

5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God,...​

Here we see that the CHILD is born and it clearly escapes the Dragon. That old serpent missed the chance to usurp the thrown of God! We further see a direct, duel reference to (Luke 23:46 and Acts 1:9) in verse 5 of Revelation 12.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,​

We now see God's Angels being led to battle by one of God's chief Angels against the Dragon and his Angels that he had swayed. Clearly God had commanded this war and Jesus Christ's Death, Burial and Resurrection was directly involved.

We now have time markers that show that the Dragon/Serpent was still in heaven at this time.

8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

Oops... No more Dragon... Serpent of old... called the Devil and also Satan ... who "Deceives" the whole world... in heaven. He tried to kill God and failed! He tried to usurp God's throne and clearly "Failed". His Is. 14:14 aspirations were now officially in utter ruin. He and his Crew were officially cast from Heaven... here!

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.​

The Devil was at the right hand of God as the Accuser... like a prosecuting attorney.... But... Jesus is now at His rightful place! He is our ADVOCATE. He is our Defense Attorney. He is our MEDIATOR. As God always intended... God alone would Mediate for man. This is the Heavenly revelation of how the Dispensation of Grace was provided.

There is a much more extensive scripture mark up of this that I have that is chained scripture... but are we in agreement so far?

 

[jamie]

Satan's "fall" was his spiritual imprisonment. He has been judged by his actions and will be dead during the millennial Sabbath, but he will be resurrected at the end of the Sabbath.

 

[jamie]

Jesus is now at His rightful place! He is our ADVOCATE.

My little children, these things I write to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 John 2:1)​

The word "Advocate" is from the same Greek word that was translated "Comforter" in the KJV.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Satan's "fall" was his spiritual imprisonment. He has been judged by his actions and will be dead during the millennial Sabbath, but he will be resurrected at the end of the Sabbath.

That's not what Revelation says. It uses allegory, but the allegory is exponentially clear. Please cite scripture. Also... All scripture says other then what you have said. Jude 1:9 ?!? ... um... It doesn't get more literal than that. So... I disagree fully, but welcome scripture on the matter.

- EE

Oh... Indecently... Here's a verse to help with understanding (Jude 1:9) ... (1 Cor. 12:27)...

Note... "The Body of Moses"
Note... "The Body of Christ"

I haven't even broached this... nor is this for this OP... but... it leans in favor of dispensation view.

 

[jamie]

That's not what Revelation says. It uses allegory, but the allegory is exponentially clear. Please cite scripture. Also... All scripture says other then what you have said. Jude 1:9 ?!? ... um... It doesn't get more literal than that. So... I disagree fully, but welcome scripture on the matter.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment... (2 Peter 2:4)

And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the Great Day... (Jude 1:6)​

 

[glorydaz]

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ,

Let's start with your best proof text against me that you may or may not be taking into consideration.

(Is. 45:7}

It's your strongest proof text that God ordained all things and it supports much of the stance that you take. The Hebrew word for "Calamity" in Is. 45:7 is רָ֑ע. It can be translated into the word Evil. This is an epically important Hebrew word to bring to light. It can also be used as disaster and calamity.

The key to this is biblical continuity. The issue with saying Evil is the "Absence of God" as the well known allegory of the student and the physics professor brings up is that God is never absent from any place. When Adam and Eve are (Gen. 3:8) ... there is an issue. Even by Open Theism... God has a (temporal) Omniscience. This means that God cannot be "hidden" from.

This puts us on track to explore what [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] has broached. It is an odd exploration in scripture that is very important. I'm implying that it is now necessary to explore.

The False Morning Star that usurped his place of authority through deception is the place to start. We need to vindicate the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

In order to do this... we will use Romans 7. But, before we get there... we have to identify Evil per (John 5:39) and Christologically see if there is scripture that sheds light on the "(2 Co. 4:4), who seeks to mar the very Name of God.

This is going to plunge us into typification's in scripture of wicked usurpers.

First let me say that there is no "absence of God" involved. Neither good (peace) nor evil (calamity) are places or things.