California lawmakers seek to end 'personal belief' vaccine exemptions

[genuineoriginal]

Why, you are the one who doesn't want to comply and put other people at risk.

Because you are the one vaccinating your children and putting them and others at risk.

Unvaccinated people are not putting your vaccinated children at risk.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Its real easy, if the school requires vaccination to attend and you dont want to vaccinate, keep them at home.

So, if a godless scholl requires vaccination before they will indoctrinate children into their godless value system, you believe everyone should vaccinate their children and send them to the godless school?

:bang:

 

[MAD Max]

Its real easy, if the school requires vaccination to attend and you dont want to vaccinate, keep them at home.

• Poisoned hearts
• Poisoned minds
• Poisoned bodies

Yep, all good reasons not to send my child to school.

 

[Angel4Truth]

So, if a godless scholl requires vaccination before they will indoctrinate children into their godless value system, you believe everyone should vaccinate their children and send them to the godless school?

:bang:

Well since you dont intend to send them to school it doesnt look like, why are you complaining about keeping them at home?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Well since you dont intend to send them to school it doesnt look like, why are you complaining about keeping them at home?

Since your children are already vaccinated, why are you complaining about unvaccinated children?

You want to mandate that other people force their children to comply with your choice of medical treatment instead of making informed decisions about their own families health care.

Do you think that you have the moral right to do so?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Since your children are already vaccinated, why are you complaining about unvaccinated children?

Because i am concerned about children too young to be vaccinated and people with issues that disable them from being vaccinated, you know real medical reasons.

You want to mandate that other people force their children to comply with your choice of medical treatment instead of making informed decisions about their own families health care.

Nope, i totally support your choice not to vaccinate and keep your kids at home.

Do you think that you have the moral right to do so?

Yes. Do you believe you have the moral right to put other peoples children at risk? I dont put your kids at risk by vaccinating mine, and i dont put other peoples kids at risk. I allow for your choice, and for you to keep your kids at home so you can practise your choice safely and not put others kids and family members at risk.

You don't have the right to choose for another persons child who is too young to be vaccinated.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Because i am concerned about children too young to be vaccinated and people with issues that disable them from being vaccinated, you know real medical reasons.

Those people should be quarantined.
That way they are protected from both unvaccinated and vaccinated people that spread infectious diseases.

Yes. Do you believe you have the moral right to put other peoples children at risk?

I am not putting other people's children at risk, you are.

I dont put your kids at risk by vaccinating mine, and i dont put other peoples kids at risk.

Yes, you do.
Your vaccinated children are just as capable of spreading infectious diseases as any unvaccinated child, the only difference is that you can go around indifferent about your children spreading infection and the parent of an unvaccinated child cannot be indifferent about it.

You don't have the right to choose for another persons child who is too young to be vaccinated.

Neither do you, so stop saying other people should have to inject their children with dangerous vaccinations in order to protect those children.

 

[Rusha]

yes, because they can infect people with weak immune systems that cannot be vaccinated and children too young to be vaccinated.

Absolutely! :thumb:

 

[patrick jane]

getting to the core of why parents choose NOT to vaccinate, they can claim faith, fear, beliefs and morals, all-natural healthy babies, or long term implications on THEIR unique and special child. no matter, any other children. boiled down, it's either pride, ego = SELF(ishness) - FEAR and/or Ignorance - misinformation and combinations of those things. it should be enforced and parents held legally responsibe for their decisions, including full disclosure to schools, friends, family etc. not kept secret and "personal" - atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

Because you are the one vaccinating your children and putting them and others at risk.

Unvaccinated people are not putting your vaccinated children at risk.

You are an original. and genuine. i don't know at what yet - atrol:

 

[MAD Max]

I'm far more concerned with pro-vax terrorists, than I am with ISIS, and they are just as evil.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

You asserted I have made claims you can refute with "clinical evidence." Go for it.

Already did.

You don't know what the claims are that claim you can refute with "clinical evidence?" Interesting.

I know what claims you are making and which you are making by implication, I want to know which ones you will cop to. Or perhaps as we saw earlier, you will simply post articles that appear to support your position and when shown in error you will deny that they were part of your argument.

Here is a quote from a news release from Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center:

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. – An American scientist whose research replicates a connection published in England in 2002 between the measles virus and bowel disease in autistic children strongly warns against making the “leap” to suggesting that the measles vaccine might actually cause autism.

“That is not what our research is showing,” said Stephen J. Walker, Ph.D., an assistant professor of physiology and pharmacology at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center. Walker and colleagues have issued an abstract to be presented at this week’s International Meeting for Autism Research, indicating that a high percentage of autistic children that they have tested with chronic bowel disease show evidence of measles virus in their intestines.​

Great, now if only you could show us where the report suggests that measles in those children were from vaccines... because it is nowhere to be found in said report.

How is his work the sole clinical basis of the alleged Autism-MMR link? How would someone conclude the connection from the wording of his findings?

The findings of Wakefield's now retracted paper:

FINDINGS: Onset of behavioural symptoms was associated, by the parents, with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination in eight of the 12 children, with measles infection in one child, and otitis media in another. All 12 children had intestinal abnormalities, ranging from lymphoid nodular hyperplasia to aphthoid ulceration. Histology showed patchy chronic inflammation in the colon in 11 children and reactive ileal lymphoid hyperplasia in seven, but no granulomas. Behavioural disorders included autism (nine), disintegrative psychosis (one), and possible postviral or vaccinal encephalitis (two). There were no focal neurological abnormalities and MRI and EEG tests were normal. Abnormal laboratory results were significantly raised urinary methylmalonic acid compared with age-matched controls (p=0.003), low haemoglobin in four children, and a low serum IgA in four children. INTERPRETATION: We identified associated gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children, which was generally associated in time with possible environmental triggers.

[/quote]

Of course I can explain why; but there is no point to me explaining why in this discussion.

There is a point. You claimed religious rights in regard to vaccination of children. I can scarcely think of a better reason for you to explain why.

Yet the rest of the public the children interact with is not mandated to receive vaccinations.

True, but

Is not =/= Ought not

...feasibility of enforcement notwithstanding.

They are still free to refuse medical procedures.

Who is 'they'?

Society isn't being protected by mandating that only certain classes of people must receive vaccinations.

Vaccine requirements don't discriminate by class as far as I am aware. Do you know otherwise?

We are discussing the right to refuse a medical procedure. What is your argument that parents should not be able to refuse vaccinations for their children?

They endanger all other children they come into contact with.

Measles outbreak traced to Disneyland continues to grow

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest...107-measles-cases-39-from-Disneyland-outbreak

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/vaccinated-people-get-measles-disneyland-blame-unvaccinated/

 

[MAD Max]

Natural Immunity

 

[elohiym]

Here is a quote from a news release from Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center:

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. – An American scientist whose research replicates a connection published in England in 2002 between the measles virus and bowel disease in autistic children strongly warns against making the “leap” to suggesting that the measles vaccine might actually cause autism.

“That is not what our research is showing,” said Stephen J. Walker, Ph.D., an assistant professor of physiology and pharmacology at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center. Walker and colleagues have issued an abstract to be presented at this week’s International Meeting for Autism Research, indicating that a high percentage of autistic children that they have tested with chronic bowel disease show evidence of measles virus in their intestines.

Great, now if only you could show us where the report suggests that measles in those children were from vaccines... because it is nowhere to be found in said report.

Do you claim the Daily Mail was fabricating the lead researchers words? "Last night the team's leader, Dr Stephen Walker, said: 'Of the handful of results we have in so far, all are vaccine strain and none are wild measles."

How is his work the sole clinical basis of the alleged Autism-MMR link? How would someone conclude the connection from the wording of his findings?

The findings of Wakefield's now retracted paper:

Onset of behavioural symptoms was associated, by the parents, with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination in eight of the 12 children...

...gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children...​

All Wakefield did apparently was state the onset of behavioral symptoms was associated by the parents with the MMR. Translation: some parents told me their kids got sick after getting the MMR. He claims to have found gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children. Did he? It appears he did in some of the children. Was there a claim that MMR causes autism in Wakefield's findings? I don't see a claim like that in the study.

There is a point. You claimed religious rights in regard to vaccination of children. I can scarcely think of a better reason for you to explain why.

Okay. Forced vaccination violates the golden rule. It is also idolatry, coveting and murder.

You are implying that adults who have not received their vaccines do not put children in harms way. You are implying herd immunity is not important.

Teachers, child-care workers, medical professionals, virtually anyone that works with children are required to received vaccinations.

Yet the rest of the public the children interact with is not mandated to receive vaccinations.

True, but ...

But nothing. The kids are at risk whether other kids get vaccinated or not. That's a major hole in your position.

Are you willing to be forced by the government to get a vaccine it and a pharmaceutical company decided you need to have? Would your answer be the same if it's vaccination for a non-communicable, non-contagious disease?

Who is 'they'?

All the citizens in the country, and the foreign travelers, that are not going to be forced to get vaccinated, yet they can still use public services, can still ride on public transportation. They can ride the bus or train with the many school kids that travel daily to and from school.

Vaccine requirements don't discriminate by class as far as I am aware. Do you know otherwise?

A class is a group of people sharing the same social, economic, or occupational status. School children are a class of citizens that is being forced to get vaccinated. Medical professionals are another class that is being forced to get vaccinated. Obviously not all classes of citizens are being forced to get vaccinated, just the ones who can most easily be coerced.

We are discussing the right to refuse a medical procedure. What is your argument that parents should not be able to refuse vaccinations for their children?

They endanger all other children they come into contact with.

Measles outbreak traced to Disneyland continues to grow

Your claim is baseless, irrational and the CBS news story you posted doesn't support it.

The CDC claims: "The outbreak likely started from a traveler who became infected overseas with measles, then visited the amusement park while infectious."

Not children who weren't vaccinated. Should we ban travelers?

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Disneyland numbers:

> 52 cases of infection originating from Disneyland (has since spread)

> Of that 52, 34 have known medical records.

> Of those 34 only 6 had their vaccinations, the other 24 (approx. 82%) were unvaccinated.

Once vaccination levels dip below 90 or 95 percent, there aren’t enough protected people to keep the disease in check.

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/vaccinated-people-get-measles-disneyland-blame-unvaccinated/

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Do you claim the Daily Mail was fabricating the lead researchers words? "Last night the team's leader, Dr Stephen Walker, said: 'Of the handful of results we have in so far, all are vaccine strain and none are wild measles."

The article in question has already made claims about the research that the researchers themselves have disputed, Statements which the article itself has neglected to report (Oops?). While I don't think the words themselves were fabricated, the daily mail is a tabloid magazine and given the wingnut author, it wouldn't surprise me. While we could simply check the report itself, alas it was never published, so it is a moot point anyway.

All Wakefield did apparently was state the onset of behavioral symptoms was associated by the parents with the MMR.

He did a great deal more than that. He claims data to substantiate that association. Once again we run into the vapid defense "I'm not claiming this, I'm just referencing that which does". As we learned though, the data was fabricated.

Translation: some parents told me their kids got sick after getting the MMR.

Yes, very scientific indeed. Too bad he had to fudge his numbers.

He claims to have found gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children. Did he?

Yes.

It appears he did in some of the children.

So again, yes.

Was there a claim that MMR causes autism in Wakefield's findings? I don't see a claim like that in the study.

If only he were as bold as his anti-vaxxer supporters. Wakefield only claimed an association between the onset of behavioral disorders including autism, and MMR boosters.

Okay. Forced vaccination violates the golden rule. It is also idolatry, coveting and murder.

Giving children booster shots is murder? Really??
Is that your argument?
Idolatry? Is the vaccine being worshiped?

You're grasping at straws here.

But nothing. The kids are at risk whether other kids get vaccinated or not. That's a major hole in your position.

Kids are at risk of dying in an automobile crash whether buckled up or not. That's a major hole in your position.

Seat-belt laws violate the golden rule. It is also idolatry, coveting and murder.

Are you willing to be forced by the government to get a vaccine it and a pharmaceutical company decided you need to have? Would your answer be the same if it's vaccination for a non-communicable, non-contagious disease?

I'm not suggesting a nationwide mandate. I think current laws are sufficient.

All the citizens in the country, and the foreign travelers, that are not going to be forced to get vaccinated, yet they can still use public services, can still ride on public transportation. They can ride the bus or train with the many school kids that travel daily to and from school.

I already answered this.

A class is a group of people sharing the same social, economic, or occupational status. School children are a class of citizens that is being forced to get vaccinated. Medical professionals are another class that is being forced to get vaccinated. Obviously not all classes of citizens are being forced to get vaccinated, just the ones who can most easily be coerced.

Children are an age-group, not a class of people; they belong to the socioeconomic class of their parents, which for schools is as diverse as the country itself. Many vaccine requirements by states for schools also apply to private schools.

Your claim is baseless, irrational and the CBS news story you posted doesn't support it.

The CDC claims: "The outbreak likely started from a traveler who became infected overseas with measles, then visited the amusement park while infectious."

Not children who weren't vaccinated. Should we ban travelers?[/QUOTE]

Low vaccination rates are a necessary cause of outbreaks such as this, as mentioned before, if vaccination rates fall below 90% there are not enough protected individuals to check the disease in check. Unvaccinated travelers are no concern if vaccination rates remain high.

 

[elohiym]

Disneyland numbers:

> 52 cases of infection originating from Disneyland (has since spread)

> Of that 52, 34 have known medical records.

> Of those 34 only 6 had their vaccinations, the other 24 (approx. 82%) were unvaccinated.

The 6 vaccination failures also endangered all other children they came into contact with. Your are not offering good reasons to mandate vaccines for school children.

Once vaccination levels dip below 90 or 95 percent, there aren’t enough protected people to keep the disease in check.

Do you expect Disneyland ensure that vaccination levels of its patrons does not dip below 90 or 95 percent? There are over 318 million people living in the United States ... and travelers.

According to the CDC, measles elimination was declared in 2000. How did the U.S. manage to have no measles cases for more than twelve months when vaccination levels for the entire population were not that high?

 

[elohiym]

Here is a quote from a news release from Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center:

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. – An American scientist whose research replicates a connection published in England in 2002 between the measles virus and bowel disease in autistic children strongly warns against making the “leap” to suggesting that the measles vaccine might actually cause autism.

“That is not what our research is showing,” said Stephen J. Walker, Ph.D., an assistant professor of physiology and pharmacology at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center. Walker and colleagues have issued an abstract to be presented at this week’s International Meeting for Autism Research, indicating that a high percentage of autistic children that they have tested with chronic bowel disease show evidence of measles virus in their intestines.​

Great, now if only you could show us where the report suggests that measles in those children were from vaccines... because it is nowhere to be found in said report.

Do you claim the Daily Mail was fabricating the lead researchers words? "Last night the team's leader, Dr Stephen Walker, said: 'Of the handful of results we have in so far, all are vaccine strain and none are wild measles."

The article in question has already made claims about the research that the researchers themselves have disputed, Statements which the article itself has neglected to report (Oops?). While I don't think the words themselves were fabricated...

Then you now know the lead researcher claimed that measles in those children were from vaccines.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

The 6 vaccination failures also endangered all other children they came into contact with.

And 2 of those had less than the recommended dosage. There is a known failure rate, as there is with any medical procedure. Unfortunately we are unable to predict which individuals will fail to produce antibodies when boostered.

Your are not offering good reasons to mandate vaccines for school children.

Because they are not full proof...?

That they have been clinically demonstrated to reduce the risk of infection by >92% is a pretty compelling argument, I'd wager. To suggest that we ought not do something because there is no guarantee of 100% success for everyone is an asinine argument, You're just being stubborn now.

Do you expect Disneyland ensure that vaccination levels of its patrons does not dip below 90 or 95 percent?

As this would not be feasible, no, I don't expect such a thing. Vaccination rates should be handled by our healthcare system not amusement parks.

According to the CDC, measles elimination was declared in 2000. How did the U.S. manage to have no measles cases for more than twelve months when vaccination levels for the entire population were not that high?

Source?