BRXII Battle talk

[Aimiel]

I didn't say Satan began Hell...He began sin.

Interesting that God never said a damn thing about buying into eternal torment BEFORE man sinned. God said we would die...not live forever in firey agony. And then prevented man from living forever by keeping the way to the tree of life.

But...these little details just kind of get swept under the rug, don't they?

Because that is all that happened before He warned us of the coming judgement and the Lake of Fire. Jesus went to preach to those who had died (which was all that men were subject to before His Gospel was preached to them) and then, those who received that message by faith were moved into paradise, to await their bretheren, who will be allowed into Heaven. Those who wouldn't receive that message are the same un-believers in hell now that they were in their lives, as is everyone whose name isn't written into The Lamb's Book of Life. The details of these things are not given to us, but they are never swept under the rug, it is merely a matter of study and meditation. God didn't cover this earth with His Glory for nothing. It is available to anyone who will believe, but hidden from the 'wise' in their own eyes (read Logos_X).

 

[logos_x]

Because that is all that happened before He warned us of the coming judgement and the Lake of Fire. Jesus went to preach to those who had died (which was all that men were subject to before His Gospel was preached to them) and then, those who received that message by faith were moved into paradise, to await their bretheren, who will be allowed into Heaven. Those who wouldn't receive that message are the same un-believers in hell now that they were in their lives, as is everyone whose name isn't written into The Lamb's Book of Life. The details of these things are not given to us, but they are never swept under the rug, it is merely a matter of study and meditation. God didn't cover this earth with His Glory for nothing. It is available to anyone who will believe, but hidden from the 'wise' in their own eyes (read Logos_X).

Indeed..it IS just a matter of study and meditation.

 

[Nineveh]

Nin, this whole thread has been about that very thing. How is that sweeping it under the rug?

"Interesting that God never said a damn thing about buying into eternal torment BEFORE man sinned. God said we would die...not live forever in firey agony. And then prevented man from living forever by keeping the way to the tree of life."

the issue is whether unbelievers will spend eternity there.

Your statement implies God said nothing about eternal torment before the fall. That's because Christ introduced us to the Lake. Are you trying to confuse hell with the lake? Or what else am I to gleen from your paragraph?

Fortunately...Jesus didn't speak English and use the words Kevin thinks He did.

The ideas and concepts along with the language itself have not been lost to history, as you think it has.

We are discussing the nature of that judgment, and whether it fits with that introduction of Christ...or not.

Jesus spoke in terms of eternal.

Besides let's think about your clinging to young's on this point of "age-during". Since the Bible stops at forever after God has set everything to rights, your "age" is forever/eternity. It stand to reason that your "during" of that age still equals eternity.

 

[logos_x]

"Interesting that God never said a damn thing about buying into eternal torment BEFORE man sinned. God said we would die...not live forever in firey agony. And then prevented man from living forever by keeping the way to the tree of life."



Your statement implies God said nothing about eternal torment before the fall. That's because Christ introduced us to the Lake. Are you trying to confuse hell with the lake? Or what else am I to gleen from your paragraph?



The ideas and concepts along with the language itself have not been lost to history, as you think it has.



Jesus spoke in terms of eternal.

Besides let's think about your clinging to young's on this point of "age-during". Since the Bible stops at forever after God has set everything to rights, your "age" is forever/eternity. It stand to reason that your "during" of that age still equals eternity.

Nin..what are you thinking?

You think God wanted an eternal misery as a result of sin. You THINK that is what the Bible says. You THINK that because you think the aions associated with judgements last forever...and you believe THAT because Jesus gives eternal life.

I think this is a case of human "logic" as regards these issues. I have explained why. Yet for some reason you think your "logic" trumps mine.

It doesn't.

 

[CabinetMaker]

So...does the lake of fire correct that oversight, or make them continue to reject Him?

There is no oversight. God tore down the wall of sin that was created by the law and seperated men from God. That is symbolized by the tearing of the temple curtain. Under the new covenant, each of us can have a personal relationship with God through Jesus. If you reject Jesus, you reject God. God has said both directly from Jesus in Mathew 25 and through John in Revelations, that the lake of fire is the final destination for those you continue to reject Him.

It is not possible to accept Christ as your saviour after you have met Him after you die. Salvation is through grace alone by faith alone. Faith is the key here. There is no need for faith in that which has been proven. You don't have faith that the chair you are sitting in will support you. It is a proven fact. You are sitting in it and it is supporting you. When you meet Jesus, you will not need faith to believe who He is and what He taught was true, you will know it for fact. It is not facts that save, it is faith.

 

[Nineveh]

Nin..what are you thinking?

I'm thinking you didn't bother to reply to my post.

I think this is a case of human "logic" as regards these issues. I have explained why. Yet for some reason you think your "logic" trumps mine. It doesn't.

Ok, where is my thought faulty? The Bible ends with forever, the "age" "during" which the lake lasts. Prove your point for "age during" being temporary. You'll need to point out where the age of eternity ends.

 

[logos_x]

There is no oversight. God tore down the wall of sin that was created by the law and seperated men from God. That is symbolized by the tearing of the temple curtain. Under the new covenant, each of us can have a personal relationship with God through Jesus. If you reject Jesus, you reject God. God has said both directly from Jesus in Mathew 25 and through John in Revelations, that the lake of fire is the final destination for those you continue to reject Him.

It is not possible to accept Christ as your saviour after you have met Him after you die. Salvation is through grace alone by faith alone. Faith is the key here. There is no need for faith in that which has been proven. You don't have faith that the chair you are sitting in will support you. It is a proven fact. You are sitting in it and it is supporting you. When you meet Jesus, you will not need faith to believe who He is and what He taught was true, you will know it for fact. It is not facts that save, it is faith.

So...you think that there can be no repentance after physical death. That is the whole thing with you isn't it. People can't have a choice once they die.

You have also said it is faith that saves us. This is false...we are saved by GRACE.

Now...I don't think it is impossible to come to faith after death. If that is what you believe, I would be intersted in why you do. Do you actually have a compelling scriptural argument for death being permanent in spite of the resurrection from death?

See...I know you don't. That is what makes your argument here so silly.

 

[logos_x]

I'm thinking you didn't bother to reply to my post.



Ok, where is my thought faulty? The Bible ends with forever, the "age" "during" which the lake lasts. Prove your point for "age during" being temporary. You'll need to point out where the age of eternity ends.

Ages end, Nin. Eternity does not.
Aion means age...not eternity.

 

[logos_x]

I'm thinking you didn't bother to reply to my post.

I'm sorry. I thought I had.

Ok, where is my thought faulty? The Bible ends with forever, the "age" "during" which the lake lasts. Prove your point for "age during" being temporary. You'll need to point out where the age of eternity ends.

The point is there is nothing to indicate that the age IS eternal anywhere as regards to punishment.

Aion is undetermined. Age is undetermined. Eon is undetermined.
You cannot change it to "eternal" without changing that meaning of the word itself.

If an age lasts forever...it isn't because AGE means forever. It is because whatever it is associated with never ends...not because the meaning of AGE changed.

I explained this in the BR.

 

[Nineveh]

Ages end, Nin. Eternity does not.

So when does the age of eternity end? That was the question you need to answer. That's where the Bible stops.

Aion means age...not eternity.

And forever means forever.

 

[logos_x]

So when does the age of eternity end? That was the question you need to answer. That's where the Bible stops.



And forever means forever.

The age of eternity does not end.

And aion does not mean forever.

 

[Nineveh]

The age of eternity does not end.

Then the "age during" eternity doesn't end.

And aion does not mean forever.

Right, I keep forgetting young's implies Greeks couldn't express the idea of eternity.

 

[logos_x]

Then the "age during" eternity doesn't end.

But...there is nothing to indicate that "age during" IS eternal as regards anything except what lasts forever...i.e. God Himself

Right, I keep forgetting young's implies Greeks couldn't express the idea of eternity.

They could...but they would not do so using aion and its adjectives.

 

[red77]

There is no oversight. God tore down the wall of sin that was created by the law and seperated men from God. That is symbolized by the tearing of the temple curtain. Under the new covenant, each of us can have a personal relationship with God through Jesus. If you reject Jesus, you reject God. God has said both directly from Jesus in Mathew 25 and through John in Revelations, that the lake of fire is the final destination for those you continue to reject Him.

It is not possible to accept Christ as your saviour after you have met Him after you die. Salvation is through grace alone by faith alone. Faith is the key here. There is no need for faith in that which has been proven. You don't have faith that the chair you are sitting in will support you. It is a proven fact. You are sitting in it and it is supporting you. When you meet Jesus, you will not need faith to believe who He is and what He taught was true, you will know it for fact. It is not facts that save, it is faith.

Actually you DO have faith that the chair you're sitting in will support you, you dont know for sure that it wont break do you?
And Jesus didnt condemn Thomas for not having faith, he said blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.....

 

[logos_x]

The bottom line of the argument for eternal torment is the belief that God, through Christ, gives eternal life to unbelievers before they come to Him.

Where does the Bible say that He gives eternal life to unbelievers so that they will suffer forever? :think:

 

[Aimiel]

Where does the Bible say that He gives eternal life to unbelievers so that they will suffer forever?

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[logos_x]

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:11 WNT)

Again, where does it say God gives anyone that does not know Him eternal life to facilitate and populate an unending fire?

 

[Nineveh]

Define "ages of ages" logos, because here in America that phrase isn't used. It's the most obscure way of translating it, seems you choose this phrase so you feel free to make it mean whatever you need it to mean.

 

[logos_x]

Define "ages of ages" logos, because here in America that phrase isn't used. It's the most obscure way of translating it, seems you choose this phrase so you feel free to make it mean whatever you need it to mean.

Well..obviously, forever and ever is NOT what it actually says. "Forever and ever" is an English idiom that is not a translation of the Greek words used.

There are multiple ages...there are not multple "eternities"

So..."until the ages of the ages" would mean 2 or more ages which are singled out among all possible ages. "Until" denotes limitation...not "no limitation". The Greek words employed do not support "never ending" at all.

 

[Nineveh]

Well..obviously, forever and ever is NOT what it actually says. "Forever and ever" is an English idiom that is not a translation of the Greek words used.

There are multiple ages...there are not multple "eternities"

So..."until the ages of the ages" would mean 2 or more ages which are singled out among all possible ages. "Until" denotes limitation...not "no limitation". The Greek words employed do not support "never ending" at all.

So for you, where the Bible ends, at eternity, it really isn't. There will be something else God must do after He has set things to rights. By what authority do you add another chapter?