BRXII Battle talk

[Nineveh]

There are relative and absolute ways to be purified. On the relative level, you reflect on what you have done and repent of the harm you have caused; you make amends with the one you have harmed, if possible; you cultivate positive qualities; etc. There are lots of ways to heal the wrongs you have done, interpersonally and individually.

How?

No sinful act marks you forever

You hope.... falsely.

True freedom and transformation only come with enlightenment.

Once again your beliefs and my God stand opposed.

Has Christ purified you and transformed you, such that you no longer do wrong?

Such that my wrongs have been cleansed away and will not be held against me. Now, I can live freely, being transformed to His image until my flesh is redeemed.

You agree with a standard which you believe is God's standard.

He stands opposed to evil, unlike pagans and their god/desses who rationalize and promote evil.

 

[Balder]

He stands opposed to evil, unlike pagans and their god/desses who rationalize and promote evil.

I see. Pagans promote evil. Evil people promote evil. Therefore, pagans are evil.

Can you give any examples of Buddhism, for instance, promoting evil? Why would you make such a claim?

If you think this deserves another thread, then you can move this there with your super admin powers if you like....

 

[red77]

How?

Conscience? The moral law thats written on our hearts? The inner voice that tells us when we commit either good or evil - tell me, what is our conscience for and has it not been given to us by God?

You hope.... falsely.

according to ET there's very little real hope, only for those who stumble along the narrow path and interpret it to mean ET for everyone else...., fortunately what you believe to be false - Jesus himself says "all kinds of things are possible", you limit the possibilities of God, no more no less - well....definitely less.......

Once again your beliefs and my God stand opposed.

Yes, "your" God indeed, "your" God cant restore his own world despite 'willing' or 'desiring' to, The God of the Bible says he came not to judge the world but to SAVE it, who should I believe?

Such that my wrongs have been cleansed away and will not be held against me. Now, I can live freely, being transformed to His image until my flesh is redeemed.

and noone takes that away from you....do you need to hold onto ET for your own salvation to hold true? Are you sure beyond question that the world which God declared himself he came not to judge- but to save cant save it all?

He stands opposed to evil, unlike pagans and their god/desses who rationalize and promote evil.

According to you EVERYONE who isnt a born again Christian is a 'pagan', I wonder how you would raionalise selfless compassion coming from a 'pagan'......:think: even in your own words God often isnt found among Christians, are they just the ones who dont believe the right doctrines? Or the ones who reflect Christs teachings and commandments?

 

[Aimiel]

Agreed :thumb:

You agree that there will be some who will never partake of God's Glory?

 

[Nineveh]

I see. Pagans promote evil. Evil people promote evil. Therefore, pagans are evil.

According to the God you reject: You shall have no other gods before Me

Can you give any examples of Buddhism, for instance, promoting evil? Why would you make such a claim?

See above. Or are you going to argue the point buddhism has no gods? You know we won't agree.

If you think this deserves another thread, then you can move this there with your super admin powers if you like....

For what purpose? You already started one and ended the dialog with me on page 2.

 

[Nineveh]

Conscience....

I wish you would follow along with the dialog if you want to jump in.

According to you EVERYONE who isnt a born again Christian is a 'pagan'

Untrue. I will not call Jews pagan either.

I wonder how you would raionalise selfless compassion coming from a 'pagan'......:think:

It won't earn them salvation. What's to "rationalize"?

even in your own words God often isnt found among Christians, are they just the ones who dont believe the right doctrines? Or the ones who reflect Christs teachings and commandments?

They would be the ones who mislabel themselves. You know, call themselves by the Name of Christ and preach a different gospel. Wolves in sheep's clothing, so to speak.

 

[Balder]

It won't earn them salvation. What's to "rationalize"?

It's odd that the scales are lopsided with regard to the consequences of behavior for human beings. Even a single wrong act can result in a "just" sentence of eternal conscious torment, but no amount of good acts can ever result in a eternal positive reward.

Why do you think God does things this way?

 

[Nineveh]

It's odd that the scales are lopsided with regard to the consequences of behavior for human beings. Even a single wrong act can result in a "just" sentence of eternal conscious torment, but no amount of good acts can ever result in a eternal positive reward.

Why do you think God does things this way?

Because wrongs aren't as inconsequential as you falsely hope them to be.

 

[Aimiel]

It's odd that the scales are lopsided with regard to the consequences of behavior for human beings. Even a single wrong act can result in a "just" sentence of eternal conscious torment, but no amount of good acts can ever result in a eternal positive reward.

Why do you think God does things this way?

So that every single human being who ever lived would be without excuse, and so that they could recognize their need for Him. Jesus is The One and Only Way into Heaven. Everyone who tries to come to The Father any other way is a thief and a robber. God's free gift is eternal life, but it takes faith. The faith to believe His Word is also a free gift from Him. Isn't God Good?

 

[Balder]

Because wrongs aren't as inconsequential as you falsely hope them to be.

Why are wrongs infinitely consequential, while right actions are not?

 

[Balder]

So that every single human being who ever lived would be without excuse, and so that they could recognize their need for Him. Jesus is The One and Only Way into Heaven. Everyone who tries to come to The Father any other way is a thief and a robber. God's free gift is eternal life, but it takes faith. The faith to believe His Word is also a free gift from Him. Isn't God Good?

In order to make sure humans realize they need Him, God set things up so that every human being lives in perpetual danger of infinite horrendous punishment?

That doesn't sound very "Good" to me.

 

[PKevman]

God is also holy and righteous. His holiness and righteousness cannot abide with sin. The holy and righteous Lord HATES sin.

 

[Balder]

God is also holy and righteous. His holiness and righteousness cannot abide with sin. The holy and righteous Lord HATES sin.

How was Jesus able to hang out so often with sinners, then? Or later, to take sin fully into himself and transform it?

 

[Aimiel]

In order to make sure humans realize they need Him, God set things up so that every human being lives in perpetual danger of infinite horrendous punishment?

That doesn't sound very "Good" to me.

He made this earth a paradise. Man sinned, and brought condemnation upon himself. God made a way out, not only for this life, but to give us life eternal.

 

[logos_x]

You agree that there will be some who will never partake of God's Glory?

No. I don't believe salvation is impossible for them, and I believe Grace never ends.
Let me put it this way, if they don't partake...it isn't because God makes it impossible for them to do so. That makes me a "hopeful" Christian Universalist. What makes me more convinced that they will partake is that Paul sets God all in all as the outcome of God's offer of salvation and that in the dispensation of the fullness of times all things will be in Christ. Nothing, not even death, has the power to stop this Grace.

The invitation in the last chapter of Revelation, apparently, extends to those outside the New Jerusalem. I have difficulty thinking that anyone can resist that invitation forever...I suppose it might be possible, but that wouldn't be because they aren't invited to partake.

This is a very different view than the standard one of "eternal torment". In this view, God isn't saving us from eternal misery, but the very thing that could potentially cause such a thing.

Jesus came to destroy all the works of the Devil, and I think the DOCTRINE of eternal torment limits His ability to do that way too severely to be the most accurate way to express what the Bible teaches. If there is eternal torment at all, it isn't in the way the DOCTRINE of eternal torment says it is. It would be limited to those who would resist salvation forever, not because it was made impossible for them to be saved.

Here is another clue...how long does God's mercies endure, and how long His wrath?...comparatively speaking that is.

Only if Grace endures forever, and His wrath limited comparativly, can there be an outcome of God all in all and all things in Christ at the dispensation of the fulness of times possibly be concieved. God has sworn by Himself that every knee will bow willingly and every tongue confess in praise and worship.

Apocatastasis is the greek word translated as "restitution" in Acts 3:21 in the KJV. The Weymouth New testament translates it as "reconstitution".

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
(Act 3:21 KJVR)

Heaven must receive Him until those times of which God has spoken from the earliest ages through the lips of His holy Prophets--the times of the reconstitution of all things.
(Act 3:21 WNT)

Most Christians today have never even heard that there is such a thing.

ἀποκατάστασις
apokatastasis
Thayer Definition:
1) restoration
1a) of a true theocracy
1b) of the perfect state before the fall

Is it all things? Is is some of all types. Does God have in mind being the savior of all men? Or just some of all types of men. Every knee, or some of every type of knee? every tongue, are some of all types?

It cost a great deal, yes. I'm silly enough to think it was enough for everyone for all ages, and effective enough and strong enough to overcome all death, all sin, all the works of the Devil, even all resistence.

Somehow people think this cheapens Christ's sacrifice.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Here's a simple question for everyone:

Do you believe that God is Good? Simple question, is God Good? Is this something
you believe?

If God is good, Would God do anything that is NOT good?

Is Eternal Torment good? No its not. Torturing sentient beings for all eternity is not good,
it is in fact monstrous, it is bad.

Therefore, it cannot be true.

Do you believe in Scripture as the Inspired word of God? I do. The Old and New Testaments
are the Inspired Word of God. I believe this.

Is Eternal Torment in Scripture? Yes it is.

Does this mean God is NOT good?

No it doesn't. It means my ability to interpret what Scripture says is flawed. I know this
because I know that God is Good. This is the core of my belief system. God is Good.

Shall I continue to strive to understand God's Inspired Word? Yes, I shall. But I have a guide to
tell me when my interpretations are flawed. When I interpret God's Word as saying God willingly
does Bad, then my interpretation is flawed, because God is Good.

God is good, and any interpretation of God's Inspired Word that does not reveal God's Goodness,
is flawed.

I can trust my understanding of Good and Bad, because God defines it for me. Good is Loving,
Patient, Kind, Gentle, Faithful, and Self Controlled. Anything, any interpretation, which does not
bear the fruits of this list is false.

Eternal Torment is not Loving. It is not Patient. It is not Kind. It is not Gentle. It is not Faithful.
It is not Self Controlled. It is therefore False.

Its not Scripture that is false, it is the interpretation which is false. Any interpretation of Scripture
which does not bear these fruits is False. False Witness to God's Word.

And this is what ET is. False Witness to God's Word. Because God is Good.

 

[Rockhead]

Some folks at TOL have accused Christian Universalists of trying to be "nicer than God." The phrase I'm more familiar with is "gooder'n God."

It's actually just the opposite.

Christian Universalists (and others) actually believe that God must be "gooder" than us, and refuse to believe that He would ever stoop to do things that are morally inferior to what many humans would consider doing.

"Gooder'n God" is impossible. God is better than anything we can imagine. He is not only better than what the Eternal Tormenters imagine, he is better than the Christian Universalists imagine.

Don't be fooled by the "nicer than God" strawman. :think:

Our God exceeds all that we can ask or think. He is more than we imagine, more than we can imagine, more than we can ask or think. More!

 

[Rockhead]

Here's a simple question for everyone:

Do you believe that God is Good? Simple question, is God Good? Is this something
you believe?

If God is good, Would God do anything that is NOT good?

Is Eternal Torment good? No its not. Torturing sentient beings for all eternity is not good,
it is in fact monstrous, it is bad.

Therefore, it cannot be true.

Do you believe in Scripture as the Inspired word of God? I do. The Old and New Testaments
are the Inspired Word of God. I believe this.

Is Eternal Torment in Scripture? Yes it is.

Does this mean God is NOT good?

No it doesn't. It means my ability to interpret what Scripture says is flawed. I know this
because I know that God is Good. This is the core of my belief system. God is Good.

Shall I continue to strive to understand God's Inspired Word? Yes, I shall. But I have a guide to
tell me when my interpretations are flawed. When I interpret God's Word as saying God willingly
does Bad, then my interpretation is flawed, because God is Good.

God is good, and any interpretation of God's Inspired Word that does not reveal God's Goodness,
is flawed.

I can trust my understanding of Good and Bad, because God defines it for me. Good is Loving,
Patient, Kind, Gentle, Faithful, and Self Controlled. Anything, any interpretation, which does not
bear the fruits of this list is false.

Eternal Torment is not Loving. It is not Patient. It is not Kind. It is not Gentle. It is not Faithful.
It is not Self Controlled. It is therefore False.

Its not Scripture that is false, it is the interpretation which is false. Any interpretation of Scripture
which does not bear these fruits is False. False Witness to God's Word.

And this is what ET is. False Witness to God's Word. Because God is Good.

God is good all the time. For myself It is unfathomable to grasp His gracious love seeking till it find, coming to an end. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

 

[Aimiel]

For universalism to be true, too many scriptures have to be 're-interpreted' or twisted (if not left out altogether). The rich man Jesus described is still in hell. Come judgement day, he'll be turned away to everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire prepared for the devil and his angels. The smoke which arises from his torment will ascend forever. No matter how you look at it, his torment must continue forever in order for the smoke arising from that torment to arise forever. Maybe look at The Word of God as meaning what It says: the wages of sin is death, after death comes judgement and only those washed in The Blood of The Lamb will be allowed into Heaven. Everyone else goes to the Lake of Fire, forever. Thank God that salvation is available. It is only available to the living. Get busy. Tell others about this Salvation. :thumb:

 

[Balder]

For universalism to be true, too many scriptures have to be 're-interpreted' or twisted (if not left out altogether). The rich man Jesus described is still in hell. Come judgement day, he'll be turned away to everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire prepared for the devil and his angels. The smoke which arises from his torment will ascend forever. No matter how you look at it, his torment must continue forever in order for the smoke arising from that torment to arise forever. Maybe look at The Word of God as meaning what It says: the wages of sin is death, after death comes judgement and only those washed in The Blood of The Lamb will be allowed into Heaven. Everyone else goes to the Lake of Fire, forever. Thank God that salvation is available. It is only available to the living. Get busy. Tell others about this Salvation. :thumb:

If you're right, Aimiel, and the Universalists are wrong, about what the Bible really teaches, then all I can say is, Thank goodness I got out.