BRXII Battle talk

[Balder]

How do you go about getting "clean"?

Enlightenment.

God merely lets you decide if you want to be with Him or without Him. It's still up to you, balder.

This comment is not responsive.

You make up your own standards balder, God is Just.

I don't just make them up. But it's true that I follow my conscience and will not violate it because some people insist loudly that I must embrace a vision which is contrary to it.

At this point, you get to be with all the other people who think they know better than the Righteous Creator God.

We're all in this together.

 

[logos_x]

If the Lake of Fire is going to 'cleanse' or purge un-believers into believers, then why did God bother sending His Son to die? Why not just wait for all the filthy sinners to be cleaned up by the lake? Doesn't make any sense to me. :think:

Simple, Aimiel!

The whole plan requires the death and resurrection of His Son. Without it there would be no redemption whatsoever. Insofar as "hell" being corrective and remedial, it without Christ would not be.

It might help to view it by comparing it to the parable of the prodigal son and the pig-sty that the prodigal found himself in. It was when he reached the lowest of the low that he came to his right mind, and decided to return to his father. He thought to return as a servant...but the Father had other plans for him.

Now...coming to be reconciled to God requires what Christ has done and coming to Him. Without THAT nothing would work.

Now..if God in Christ never did what was needed to reconcile mankind to Himself...the kind of Hell you expect as being eternal could be true...that is if man lives forever without God's help, anyway. But since He has done it...then it is completely different than what Satan had planned. Now it is in Christ's hands, not the Devil's.

 

[PKevman]

Psalm 28:

3Do not take me away with the wicked
And with the workers of iniquity,
Who speak peace to their neighbors,
But evil is in their hearts.
4 Give them according to their deeds,
And according to the wickedness of their endeavors;
Give them according to the work of their hands;
Render to them what they deserve. 5 Because they do not regard the works of the LORD,
Nor the operation of His hands,
He shall destroy them
And not build them up.

God's Word is expressly clear time and again that the wicked deserve the judgment they receive. Whether fallen human beings regard it as fair is not important.

 

[Aimiel]

I simply don't understand what possible use there could be for hell or the Lake of Fire, if what Logos believes were true. Just doesn't make sense. :think:

 

[logos_x]

I simply don't understand what possible use there could be for hell or the Lake of Fire, if what Logos believes were true. Just doesn't make sense. :think:

Consider.
If the Lake of Fire were an eternal thing, then it wouldn't make sense. If not, it makes perfrct sense.

Now...who are thrown in the lake of fire and brimstone?

Rev 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Specifically...But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
(Rev 21:8 ASV)

But then...in the last chapter, this sorry lot are outside the New Jerusalem....

Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.
(Rev 22:14-15 ASV)

They aren't continually burning...unless you say that this is another batch of the same ilk...in which case, why aren't these getting the same treatment as the others before them?

And, what do the residents inside the New Jerusalem do?

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.
(Rev 22:17 ASV)

Obviously..the lake of fire is not eternal. These remain dead through the Millenial reign before being raised to life again...and then it is seen whether they are written in the Lamb's book of life...that would be an age. Those discribed above experience the lake of fire...which is defined as the second death. These are dead while God creates a new Heaven and New Earth...but are then there, outside the new Jerusalem later...and are THEN invited in. That is an awful lot of things that God is going to do to miss out on....but it is still limited to ages. These are very awsome ages...ones that I doubt anyone would want to miss out on, suffering instead.

Our lives have sometimes been discribed as a crucible...even while we are alive. There is a reason we use this kind of language...but it isn't considered literally a crucible, it is just an apt comparison because of the hardship, confusion and pain we experience while alive, and how those things affect us. Most want their deaths to be an escape from those kinds of experiences. It seems Jesus is saying it might even get worse...but I am the way out, come.

Hope this helps, Aimiel.

 

[Nineveh]

Enlightenment.

Enlightenment : 1. the act of enlightening, 2. the state of being enlightened 3. Buddhism, Hinduism 4. a philosophical movement of the 18th century, characterized by belief in the power of human reason and by innovations in political, religious, and educational doctrine.

Cleanse: 1. to make clean. 2. to remove by or as if by cleaning 3. to become clean.

I'm not seeing any congruency here.

I don't just make them up. But it's true that I follow my conscience and will not violate it because some people insist loudly that I must embrace a vision which is contrary to it.

Finding out one isn't quite "all that" is hard for some to take. Especially when they fashion or accept god/desses that agree with themselves.

We're all in this together.

Not really, you disagree with God, I agree with Him. That puts a gulf between us.

 

[Aimiel]

Consider.
If the Lake of Fire were an eternal thing, then it wouldn't make sense. If not, it makes perfrct sense.

You haven't given me any understanding of why you believe this. I am still completely in the dark as to why you see this the opposite way that I do. If the Lake of Fire were for a limited period of time, then why not just do that (whatever it is you believe the Lake of Fire will do to make the lost become saved) in hell, and save on construction costs, not to mention fire insurance liabilities. :chuckle:

 

[logos_x]

You haven't given me any understanding of why you believe this. I am still completely in the dark as to why you see this the opposite way that I do. If the Lake of Fire were for a limited period of time, then why not just do that (whatever it is you believe the Lake of Fire will do to make the lost become saved) in hell, and save on construction costs, not to mention fire insurance liabilities. :chuckle:

:chuckle:

Well...I'm having some trouble understanding what it is you don't understand. Why does hell have to be permanent before it makes any sense?

 

[logos_x]

You haven't given me any understanding of why you believe this. I am still completely in the dark as to why you see this the opposite way that I do. If the Lake of Fire were for a limited period of time, then why not just do that (whatever it is you believe the Lake of Fire will do to make the lost become saved) in hell, and save on construction costs, not to mention fire insurance liabilities. :chuckle:

Think about it Aim. A literal lake of fire that endures forever without any way out. Is that what God made or will make. Why would He do that. What has He done to make us think that He would consider that a good thing to do?

How dare we think God would? It is the most monsterous thing anyone could possibly do.

As I pointed out in the BR...God prevents man from eating of the tree of life so he would not live forever in a fallen state. Yet the Doctrine of eternal torment has him letting people live forever in a fallen state anyway. How much sense should THAT make?

 

[PKevman]

Consider.
If the Lake of Fire were an eternal thing, then it wouldn't make sense. If not, it makes perfrct sense.

Now...who are thrown in the lake of fire and brimstone?

Rev 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Specifically...But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
(Rev 21:8 ASV)

But then...in the last chapter, this sorry lot are outside the New Jerusalem....

Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.
(Rev 22:14-15 ASV)

They aren't continually burning...unless you say that this is another batch of the same ilk...in which case, why aren't these getting the same treatment as the others before them?

And, what do the residents inside the New Jerusalem do?

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.
(Rev 22:17 ASV)

Obviously..the lake of fire is not eternal. These remain dead through the Millenial reign before being raised to life again...and then it is seen whether they are written in the Lamb's book of life...that would be an age. Those discribed above experience the lake of fire...which is defined as the second death. These are dead while God creates a new Heaven and New Earth...but are then there, outside the new Jerusalem later...and are THEN invited in. That is an awful lot of things that God is going to do to miss out on....but it is still limited to ages. These are very awsome ages...ones that I doubt anyone would want to miss out on, suffering instead.

Our lives have sometimes been discribed as a crucible...even while we are alive. There is a reason we use this kind of language...but it isn't considered literally a crucible, it is just an apt comparison because of the hardship, confusion and pain we experience while alive, and how those things affect us. Most want their deaths to be an escape from those kinds of experiences. It seems Jesus is saying it might even get worse...but I am the way out, come.

Hope this helps, Aimiel.

Actually you forgot the rest of the verses applicable to this subject:

Rev 21:22-27

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

If Universalism is right then why would they be "outside" the city. The gates are always open. They could just walk right in if they were of those who are saved!

The following verse is where Universalism again makes a mockery of the Word of God:

15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Those outside in this text are those who have been cast in the Lake of Fire. It means they are outside of Heaven. It doesn't mean they are standing at the gates trying to get in........

 

[logos_x]

Actually you forgot the rest of the verses applicable to this subject:

Rev 21:22-27

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

If Universalism is right then why would they be "outside" the city. The gates are always open. They could just walk right in if they were of those who are saved!

The following verse is where Universalism again makes a mockery of the Word of God:

15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Those outside in this text are those who have been cast in the Lake of Fire. It means they are outside of Heaven. It doesn't mean they are standing at the gates trying to get in........

Who are we extending the invitation to, Kevin? Those already in?
And, obviously...the only thing keeping them out is their uncleanness...so what if they are cleansed. That which He has cleansed don't call common or unclean. That which is unclean can't come in...it isn't saying they can't be cleansed...just the opposite in fact.

Whosoever will, Kevin. You don't like that?

 

[Aimiel]

Hey Log!!!

Hey Log!!!

Well...I'm having some trouble understanding what it is you don't understand. Why does hell have to be permanent before it makes any sense?

If God were to punish someone in flames of torment, without the fire ever going out and being eaten alive by worms that never die, where would the sense be in ending that, and expecting the one who had been subjected to it to then love anyone, much less The One Who sent them there?

Think about it Aim. A literal lake of fire that endures forever without any way out.

:think: I see. Makes sense.

Is that what God made or will make.

Yes. Exactly. That is what The Word of God says, and so that is what I believe.

Why would He do that.

You tell me. He doesn't share His Reasoning or Thoughts with us, as yet. From what I believe about Him, I'd say that it has to do with the Law of Repciprocity, that (defined) being: whatsoever a man sows is exactly what he will reap. God is not mocked. He will avenge every single soul ever harmed by sinful men, and that vengance is eternal.

What has He done to make us think that He would consider that a good thing to do?

He is perfectly just, and wouldn't send one single soul to hell who didn't deserve it. Not one. Every single one of us deserves it. Only those whose names found written in The Lamb's Book of Life will enter Heaven. Outside of Heaven (hell is the only other place there is) are those who are sinners.

As I pointed out in the BR...God prevents man from eating of the tree of life so he would not live forever in a fallen state.

That would have altered His Plans for eternity. The fact is, when sin entered His creation, every square inch of it (the temporal realm) became defiled, and God did not want to have to pay the light bill for eternity. Why do that when He is all the Light we need?

Yet the Doctrine of eternal torment has him letting people live forever in a fallen state anyway.

Not so. The Word of God says that body and soul will be destroyed in hell. I believe that in the ressurrection, the spirit will rise to be rewarded or judged, as the case may be, and that spirit will gain Heaven, due to The Blood of The Lamb or find itself on the short end of the stick, and be sent to eternal flames and torment.

How much sense should THAT make?

A whole lot more than the janglings and ramblings of those who oppose it and dismiss it as 'unthinkable' since they certainly know God better than all that. It makes perfect sense. What do you think of as illogical or confusing? Is there something which you don't understand, perhaps?

 

[Balder]

Enlightenment : 1. the act of enlightening, 2. the state of being enlightened 3. Buddhism, Hinduism 4. a philosophical movement of the 18th century, characterized by belief in the power of human reason and by innovations in political, religious, and educational doctrine.

Cleanse: 1. to make clean. 2. to remove by or as if by cleaning 3. to become clean.

I'm not seeing any congruency here.

I am referring to Buddhist notions of enlightenment and what is involved in it, not to the 18th century Western philosophical/sociological development.

Finding out one isn't quite "all that" is hard for some to take. Especially when they fashion or accept god/desses that agree with themselves.

You assume that because individuals are not Christian, they therefore are full of themselves and place themselves above everyone and everything, acting as a law unto themselves, not having humility, not repenting of sinful acts, etc. Ironically, by "looking down" on non-Christians in this way, as not having the "true humility" that you do, you are in fact indulging your own spiritual pride.

Not really, you disagree with God, I agree with Him. That puts a gulf between us.

I disagree with your understanding of God and your beliefs. Are you putting your belief on par with God?

 

[Nineveh]

I am referring to Buddhist notions of enlightenment and what is involved in it, not to the 18th century Western philosophical/sociological development.

I listed all the definitions given. What about your brand of paganism cleanses you?

Example: a pagan rapes a woman. What can the rapsist do to cleanse their being of that wrong?

You assume that because individuals are not Christian, they therefore are full of themselves and place themselves above everyone and everything, acting as a law unto themselves, not having humility, not repenting of sinful acts, etc. Ironically, by "looking down" on non-Christians in this way, as not having the "true humility" that you do, you are in fact indulging your own spiritual pride.

Actually, I know I'm not nearly as good as pagans are. That's why I need Christ.

Are you putting your belief on par with God?

I agree with God's standard.

 

[Balder]

I listed all the definitions given. What about your brand of paganism cleanses you?

Example: a pagan rapes a woman. What can the rapsist do to cleanse their being of that wrong?

There are relative and absolute ways to be purified. On the relative level, you reflect on what you have done and repent of the harm you have caused; you make amends with the one you have harmed, if possible; you cultivate positive qualities; etc. There are lots of ways to heal the wrongs you have done, interpersonally and individually. No sinful act marks you forever, because as I said, sin is not a substance, nor do we consist of any permanent thing which may be forever stained. However, even though we can heal relative wrongs and develop in positive ways, these things alone will not deliver you from the propensity to do wrong, or lead to true, lasting freedom. True freedom and transformation only come with enlightenment.

Actually, I know I'm not nearly as good as pagans are. That's why I need Christ.

Has Christ purified you and transformed you, such that you no longer do wrong?

I agree with God's standard.

You agree with a standard which you believe is God's standard.

 

[logos_x]

IThe fact is, when sin entered His creation, every square inch of it (the temporal realm) became defiled, and God did not want to have to pay the light bill for eternity. Why do that when He is all the Light we need?

Why, what we now suffer I count as nothing in comparison with the glory which is soon to be manifested in us. For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God. For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it). Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole of Creation is groaning together in the pains of childbirth until this hour.
(Rom 8:18-22 WNT)

What does this mean to you, Aimiel? Anything?

You keep saying that what I'm saying doesn't make sense...yet it is what the doctrine of eternal torment teaches that turn's God's plans on their head.

But then...I guess you guys don't believe that God saving the world is very important...at least, not the whole thing. You'd rather see an eternal Hell than one that actually fits with God's plans to save all men and drawing all men to Him. And you would rather think of anyone that suggests a way that these scriptures might actually be true as a nut-job.

That's O.K. I know how it is.

See you all later... :wave2:

 

[Aimiel]

Why, what we now suffer I count as nothing in comparison with the glory which is soon to be manifested in us. For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God. For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it). Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole of Creation is groaning together in the pains of childbirth until this hour.
(Rom 8:18-22 WNT)

What does this mean to you, Aimiel? Anything?

That becoming one of the children of God is a good thing, to be desired far above remaining a child of the devil, and ending up in hell, so as to not ever be able to take part in this glory. You make The Kingdom of God of none effect, believing that He makes no difference between those who accept Him and those who trample The Blood of His Son under their feet.

You keep saying that what I'm saying doesn't make sense...yet it is what the doctrine of eternal torment teaches that turn's God's plans on their head.

Why is that? His Plans are for the salvation of many, just like He said. He said that many were called but few were chosen. He wasn't kidding.

But then...I guess you guys don't believe that God saving the world is very important... at least, not the whole thing.

It would be important, indeed very much so, if it were true. In fact it would be so important that God would leave no doubt about it, by stating such, in Person, when He visited us, in The Form of Flesh (Jesus) but since He decided to clue us in on hell and the Lake of Fire, we have to face the Truth, instead of what we'd like to believe, or what someone who we think of as a 'great scholar' has convinced us is true.

You'd rather see an eternal Hell than one that actually fits with God's plans to save all men and drawing all men to Him. And you would rather think of anyone that suggests a way that these scriptures might actually be true as a nut-job.

That's O.K. I know how it is.

See you all later... :wave2:

I'd rather see Truth, than make-believe, and I'd rather not be subject to being mocked, with childish remarks, having someone look down their nose at me for believing that Truth, thank you very much.

 

[logos_x]

That becoming one of the children of God is a good thing, to be desired far above remaining a child of the devil, and ending up in hell, so as to not ever be able to take part in this glory. You make The Kingdom of God of none effect, believing that He makes no difference between those who accept Him and those who trample The Blood of His Son under their feet.Why is that? His Plans are for the salvation of many, just like He said. He said that many were called but few were chosen. He wasn't kidding.It would be important, indeed very much so, if it were true. In fact it would be so important that God would leave no doubt about it, by stating such, in Person, when He visited us, in The Form of Flesh (Jesus) but since He decided to clue us in on hell and the Lake of Fire, we have to face the Truth, instead of what we'd like to believe, or what someone who we think of as a 'great scholar' has convinced us is true.I'd rather see Truth, than make-believe, and I'd rather not be subject to being mocked, with childish remarks, having someone look down their nose at me for believing that Truth, thank you very much.

Ok, Aimiel.

"Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God."

So...you don't have that hope, then?

 

[Aimiel]

Ok, Aimiel.

"Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God."

So...you don't have that hope, then?

I not only have that hope, but I live a life of surrender, which brings me into that liberty today. One who doesn't acknowledge The Lord in all his ways but leans upon his own understanding, rather that to seek for The Lord's Understanding, to gain The Mind of Christ doesn't have that liberty, and (except he repents) may never partake of it. God doesn't want us to bring portions of His Word to one another to 'proof-text' our beliefs onto the minds of others, but He wants to give us Truth by giving us all of His Word, so that we might get the big picture that His Truth represents, not our own 'little picture' of what we want to see.

 

[logos_x]

I not only have that hope, but I live a life of surrender, which brings me into that liberty today. One who doesn't acknowledge The Lord in all his ways but leans upon his own understanding, rather that to seek for The Lord's Understanding, to gain The Mind of Christ doesn't have that liberty, and (except he repents) may never partake of it. God doesn't want us to bring portions of His Word to one another to 'proof-text' our beliefs onto the minds of others, but He wants to give us Truth by giving us all of His Word, so that we might get the big picture that His Truth represents, not our own 'little picture' of what we want to see.

Agreed :thumb: