BRXII Battle talk

[ChasClean]

"LogosQ2: Do you believe God really created the universe so that unending misery would be the outcome for the majority of people He raises from the dead?"

I believe you really know what he was getting at. He is clear in his logic, while those who believe in eternal torment get stopped at creation. It's real simple, but because we are so patient we will go over it again.

1. God is all knowing. Knows the end from the beginning.

2. If you believe there is ET then God knew from the beginning that the majority of people would be burning forever in hell. If He knew it ahead of time then He is to blame.

3. Saying He gave us "free will" doesn't let him off the hook. Because He still knew that the majority of people with their "free will" were going to burn forever. But He still wanted to make them.... Why?

4. No one's will is free anyway. We all have a will, but it isn't free. Free is defined as having no outside influences. To say God doesn't affect our will and mold us like a clay pot is unscriptural.

5. We believe there is no ET. Yet, you are aware we still believe in judgement, living a godly life, and the reason Jesus died was to give us life again, because the penalty was death, not ET. We don't go round and round from the beginning like those who hold to ET have to.

6. God knew there would be evil. He planned it. He wanted to be our Saviour, our healer, our deliverer, our refuge. He could have been none of those things without evil. But evil and sin will be totally done away with. ET can't admit God planned it, because they have to hold on to hell. Hell keeps them running in circles.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

1. God is all knowing. Knows the end from the beginning.

God declares the end from the beginning. In other words... He decides when things start and when things will end. We shouldn't stretch biblical statements out of there intended meaning.

Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ - Isaiah 46:10

 

[Ecumenicist]

Great first round.

My comments may sound partisan, but, hey, they are!

I thought Logos scored a preemptive blast hole with his extensive definition of
"the ages", which PK fell right into with his opening questions (in my opinion.) I think its
contingent now on PK to explain how his "the ages" scriptures meet the standards for
really meaning "eternity."

I think PK's "supply side theology" is a poor basis for explaining God's Mercy in
terms of the question at hand, eternal damnation. At least from my reading "look
at it from the point of view of the saved, pay no attention to those screaming wailing
souls behind the curtain" doesn't fit with God revealed through Jesus Christ who
sought out and healed the afflicted. "I demand mercy and not sacrifice!"

But, seriously, both parties are admirable for the time and dedication that goes into
an effort of this sort.

Blessings,

Dave

 

[neilinprayer]

Poly is the "chairman" of this debate - try to pay closer attention.

Ah, fair enough. I thought you were 'master' moderator of all. Since you have delegated moderation to Poly on this occasion then I unreservedly apologise. I would +ve rep you to completely atone for my sins but the forum rules forbid me. So that is your fault :chuckle:.

:shut: NIP

 

[logos_x]

God removed the possibility to live forever in the fallen state that Adam was in by kicking him out of the Garden.

Will we or won't we live forever?

The answer is yes. God is eternal and God breathed His spirit into Adam. When we procreate we create eternal lives/souls/spirits which is what God wanted us to do from the beginning. Then Adam sinned so God had to send Jesus to make a way for all those who would choose to believe and want a relationship with God forever to have it, that relationship otherwise all would have to be separated from God forever because of our sin.

Your belief is that God will torment men for a while which will make them better so that they will then have suffered enough to come to heaven. Sounds like the inquisition!

Actually the answer is no, we die.

Eternal life is not our possession...we must be given it. God, Himself, is the only source for eternal life.

If we already live forever then removing access to the tree of life is a pointless exercise...and if God intends to give eternal life to the unrighteous in the end anyway regardless of whether the conditions are met to gain access to the "tree of life" then He is a fickle and undecisive sort of God that has no real sensible plan.

Fortunately my view doesn't have those kinds of difficulties. Good luck with yours.

 

[ChasClean]

God declares the end from the beginning. In other words... He decides when things start and when things will end. We shouldn't stretch biblical statements out of there intended meaning.

No. There is no "in other words". He declares. As Strongs says "make known". In order to make known you have to know.

Anyway what's your point. You aren't saying He doesn't know everything are you?

If you admit He is all knowing, then the rest of my points stand, and you haven't addressed them.

 

[ChasClean]

JW,

The spirits of the truly wicked will likely remain on the Earth for eternity.

I was with you all the way until here. I thought what you wrote was very creative.

The only way there could be truly wicked if for there to be a completely neutral playing field. It doesn't exist. There are reasons why even the most wicked are the way they are. The reasons may be complicated and go back for generations. But one thing I am confident of. Wickedness does not consist of someone sitting there one day with a blank slate and declaring, "I am going to be wicked."

No. There are reasons for the "truly wicked". Reasons that God can take care of.

By the way. When do recognize someone as "truly wicked". Does it kind of go like this:

1. Poor lost guy, but he has a good heart. He’s pretty good. God can save him easy.

2. Poor lost guy, with not quite such a good heart. It takes God a little time and effort to save him.

3. Lost guy with sort of a stinkin heart. It’s iffy whether God can save him.

4. Truly wicked. God doesn’t quite have what it takes to help this guy.

Just jump in to totally trusting God. No one is beyond His changing them. Even if at first they don’t want to be changed. God wants them and He will get them.

 

[xavier47]

Hello, I'm new here the name's Xavier... I'll add my $.02 to this debate and go back to hiding...

It seems to me that the majority of folks here believe that the Cross was some sort of contigent plan in the case that things didn't pan out exactly the way that God wanted them to... For me, to believe that God kind of rolled the dice and see what happens in each person's life is ludicrous... To believe that God set up Adam and Eve in the Garden and not know they were going to disobey Him is ludicrous... To believe that God created humanity knowing full well that the majority would reject Christ and send them to eternal damnation for it is ludicrous... You go, Logos_X! I'm with you!

 

[Evee]

I am going to try and read this Battle Royal with a total open mind.

 

[Just Tom]

Actually the answer is no, we die.

Eternal life is not our possession...we must be given it. God, Himself, is the only source for eternal life.

If we already live forever then removing access to the tree of life is a pointless exercise...and if God intends to give eternal life to the unrighteous in the end anyway regardless of whether the conditions are met to gain access to the "tree of life" then He is a fickle and undecisive sort of God that has no real sensible plan.

Fortunately my view doesn't have those kinds of difficulties. Good luck with yours.

Eternal life is the result of God creating Adam and breathing His Spirit into him. If we just live and die with no eternal soul then Jesus really didn't need to die now did he. Since when we die we die and thus it matters not what we do here. But since we already have eternal life where we will spend it is of great importance to God which is why he went to such great lengths to make a way for us to have a relationship with him. If that isn't true then none of it really matters and those that die without God just die and then only those who accept Jesus will live forever. This then destroys your contention that all will make it to heaven after a period of punishment/correction like a really good spanking.

Your perception of God and man is one of the reason your theology is so whacked..

Once one proves that man has eternal life already an eternal soul then your argument that the word doesn't mean eternal crumbles like a sandcastle at high tide..

 

[Lighthouse]

Hello, I'm new here the name's Xavier... I'll add my $.02 to this debate and go back to hiding...

It seems to me that the majority of folks here believe that the Cross was some sort of contigent plan in the case that things didn't pan out exactly the way that God wanted them to... For me, to believe that God kind of rolled the dice and see what happens in each person's life is ludicrous... To believe that God set up Adam and Eve in the Garden and not know they were going to disobey Him is ludicrous... To believe that God created humanity knowing full well that the majority would reject Christ and send them to eternal damnation for it is ludicrous... You go, Logos_X! I'm with you!

God knew they were going to eat from the tree? Okay, so then, why did God tell them not to?

 

[Kimberlyann]

Eternal life is the result of God creating Adam and breathing His Spirit into him. If we just live and die with no eternal soul then Jesus really didn't need to die now did he. Since when we die we die and thus it matters not what we do here. But since we already have eternal life where we will spend it is of great importance to God which is why he went to such great lengths to make a way for us to have a relationship with him. If that isn't true then none of it really matters and those that die without God just die and then only those who accept Jesus will live forever. This then destroys your contention that all will make it to heaven after a period of punishment/correction like a really good spanking.

Your perception of God and man is one of the reason your theology is so whacked..

Once one proves that man has eternal life already an eternal soul then your argument that the word doesn't mean eternal crumbles like a sandcastle at high tide..

Don't you believe God when He said, "you will surely die" (Gen 2:17 )Or do you believe the lie Satan told Eve, "You surely will not die ! (Gen 3:4)?

Paul says, Jesus is the only one who has immortaily.

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion ! Amen. ( 1 Timothy 6:16)

 

[xavier47]

God knew they were going to eat from the tree? Okay, so then, why did God tell them not to?

Nope - you tell me how is it God needs a contitgency plan... Then He's not all-knowing? Is He God, then?

 

[xavier47]

that's CONTINGENCY

 

[Just Tom]

Don't you believe God when He said, "you will surely die" (Gen 2:17 )Or do you believe the lie Satan told Eve, "You surely will not die ! (Gen 3:4)?

Paul says, Jesus is the only one who has immortaily.

Yes they will die physically! and spiritually their relationship with God will be destroyed.

It is in Jesus that we find eternal life with God not eternal life itself since as PK showed Jesus will send those not found in the book of life into the lake of fire for eternity. If they don't already have eternal life then it is a hard question as to why God would suddenly give them eternal life just to torment them for all of eternity. That doesn't make any sense as to how God portrays Himself in the bible. The only way it makes sense is that we already have an eternal soul/spirit so God had to do something. Since we are created in the image of God in his likeness and he is eternal so why wouldn't we be..?

Logos is getting his butt kicked right now.. he has all those quotes and some don't seem to mean what he thinks they mean..

 

[Just Tom]

Nope - you tell me how is it God needs a contitgency plan... Then He's not all-knowing? Is He God, then?

Yes!

Why wouldn't he be?

If he doesn't know what I am going to do tomorrow how does that make him less HOLY and righteous?

He says in the bible that they sacrificed their children to moelec and it never entered his mind that they would do such a thing.. So how is he less God because he didn't think up all the different evil things that man would do?

 

[logos_x]

Yes they will die physically! and spiritually their relationship with God will be destroyed.

It is in Jesus that we find eternal life with God not eternal life itself since as PK showed Jesus will send those not found in the book of life into the lake of fire for eternity. If they don't already have eternal life then it is a hard question as to why God would suddenly give them eternal life just to torment them for all of eternity. That doesn't make any sense as to how God portrays Himself in the bible. The only way it makes sense is that we already have an eternal soul/spirit so God had to do something. Since we are created in the image of God in his likeness and he is eternal so why wouldn't we be..?

Logos is getting his butt kicked right now.. he has all those quotes and some don't seem to mean what he thinks they mean..

Oh, Lord...you give them eyes and they cannot see!

"If they don't already have eternal life then it is a hard question as to why God would suddenly give them eternal life just to torment them for all of eternity."

We don't have eternal life unless God gives it to us, Tom. It's a gift.

The only reason you think I'm getting my butt kicked is because you believe you have an indestructible soul.
You won't find that in scripture anywhere!

 

[Just Tom]

Oh, Lord...you give them eyes and they cannot see!

"If they don't already have eternal life then it is a hard question as to why God would suddenly give them eternal life just to torment them for all of eternity."

We don't have eternal life unless God gives it to us, Tom. It's a gift.

The only reason you think I'm getting my butt kicked is because you believe you have an indestructible soul.
You won't find that in scripture anywhere!

"Fear not he who can kill the flesh, but fear he who can kill both the flesh and the soul"... AHHH haaaa So the soul needs to be kill after the body is dead since it lives on.. So your entire premise is dead. You are getting smoked but you don't even have the eyes to see that do you? He gives us eternal life with Him in paradise if we chose it. If we don't then it is the LAKE OF FIRE buddy...

 

[logos_x]

"Fear not he who can kill the flesh, but fear he who can kill both the flesh and the soul"... AHHH haaaa So the soul needs to be kill after the body is dead since it lives on.. So your entire premise is dead. You are getting smoked but you don't even have the eyes to see that do you? He gives us eternal life with Him in paradise if we chose it. If we don't then it is the LAKE OF FIRE buddy...

So...you believe in eternal death...annihilation?

 

[xavier47]

Yes!

Why wouldn't he be?

If he doesn't know what I am going to do tomorrow how does that make him less HOLY and righteous?

He says in the bible that they sacrificed their children to moelec and it never entered his mind that they would do such a thing.. So how is he less God because he didn't think up all the different evil things that man would do?

OK, so Christ knew that Peter was going to deny Him, yet He generally does not know the evil in men's hearts? He created evil! How does it surprise Him? This openness theology thing really does the Lord a disservice...