If you really want to discuss this, let's start a new thread on it, as Knight suggested. I'll even let you start it with a definition of "all knowing."xavier47 said:
BRXII Battle talk
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The same goes for you Chas.Lighthouse said:
Fun in the Sun, the Lake of Fire...
Fun in the Sun, the Lake of Fire...
...and the Garry Denke anagram, the Dark Energy,
exercises the Dragon/Beast/False Prophet power:
Revelation 12 Dragon
seven heads (.0000000) three sixes (.666) ten horns (x 10) seven crowns (^-07)
Big G's us., .666 x 10^-07 length^3/mass-time^2
Revelation 13 Beast
seven heads (.0000000) three sixes (666.) ten horns (x 10) ten crowns (^-10)
Big G's us., 666. x 10^-10 length^3/mass-time^2
Revelation 16 False Prophet
...6...6...6... hopping frogs ...6...6...6... hopping frogs ...6...6...6...
Big G's us., 6.66 x 10^-08 length^3/mass-time^2
(well 6'ers always looked like frogs to me,
points jumping about Philadelphia and all)
Big G's us., 6.66 x 10^-08 centimetre^3/gram-second^2
Quintessence^TM
G, Jesus, G's us., 666. x 10^-10 with beastly tail,
the mark, the name, the image, and the number.
Lucifer, the Devil, and Satan
(dragon, beast, false prophet)
Fun in the Sun, the Lake of Fire...
...and the Garry Denke anagram, the Dark Energy,
exercises the Dragon/Beast/False Prophet power:
Revelation 12 Dragon
seven heads (.0000000) three sixes (.666) ten horns (x 10) seven crowns (^-07)
Big G's us., .666 x 10^-07 length^3/mass-time^2
Revelation 13 Beast
seven heads (.0000000) three sixes (666.) ten horns (x 10) ten crowns (^-10)
Big G's us., 666. x 10^-10 length^3/mass-time^2
Revelation 16 False Prophet
...6...6...6... hopping frogs ...6...6...6... hopping frogs ...6...6...6...
Big G's us., 6.66 x 10^-08 length^3/mass-time^2
(well 6'ers always looked like frogs to me,
points jumping about Philadelphia and all)
Big G's us., 6.66 x 10^-08 centimetre^3/gram-second^2
Quintessence^TM
G, Jesus, G's us., 666. x 10^-10 with beastly tail,
the mark, the name, the image, and the number.
Lucifer, the Devil, and Satan
(dragon, beast, false prophet)
:kookoo:Garry Denke said:
This is a ridiculous argument. We either believe God or we call Him a liar. We accept Him and have everlasting life or we reject Him and suffer everlasting punishment.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
randers said:
Then why dont you believe him when (Timothy 2:10) he declares he is the saviour of ALL men especially of those who believe?
The answer to your quote lies within translations of the original greek which if I'm not mistaken translates as 'age lasting' (although I'm sure Logos is better equipped to determine translation than me.......)
Just Tom
New member
red77 said:
Logos pointed out the flaw in his own position. That the word only means everlasting when talking about something that is eternal.. Thus when it talks about men and their spirits it is talking about eternal things. Thus it means everlasting once you make that case his word game falls flat on its face. It shouldn't be to hard for PK to show that even after death the soul lives...
Chileice
New member
Logos,
Your second post was almost a rehash of your first. I think the reason Kevin asked for your definition of "eternal" is important:
You said:The question you ask is motivated by what you believe Jesus actually said in Matthew 25:46. But...by now you should realize because of what I posted here and in my opening post that Jesus did not say what He said to a people that believed what you believe, did not use a word that means eternal, and did not intend us to think that the unbeliever lives forever in torment.
If that is the case, eternal life in the positive sense is also in question because the verse (Mt. 25.46 uses kólasin aíwnion
for "eternal punishment or torment" in the first half of the verse and
zoèn aíwnion
in the second half meaning "eternal life". The adjectives used are EXACTLY the same.
So are you denying that we have eternal life in Christ?
Your second post was almost a rehash of your first. I think the reason Kevin asked for your definition of "eternal" is important:
You said:The question you ask is motivated by what you believe Jesus actually said in Matthew 25:46. But...by now you should realize because of what I posted here and in my opening post that Jesus did not say what He said to a people that believed what you believe, did not use a word that means eternal, and did not intend us to think that the unbeliever lives forever in torment.
If that is the case, eternal life in the positive sense is also in question because the verse (Mt. 25.46 uses kólasin aíwnion
for "eternal punishment or torment" in the first half of the verse and
zoèn aíwnion
in the second half meaning "eternal life". The adjectives used are EXACTLY the same.
So are you denying that we have eternal life in Christ?
cool .. a battle royale ...
i feel badly for logos after what happened to all the other people who lost the popular vote on these. perhaps hes made of sterner stuff?
or what odds that he's right?
i'm stayin' tuned. good opening round. liked 'em
i feel badly for logos after what happened to all the other people who lost the popular vote on these. perhaps hes made of sterner stuff?
or what odds that he's right?
i'm stayin' tuned. good opening round. liked 'em
Kimberlyann
New member
Yes, I agree here. That wouldn't have been a good thing. God doesn't want man to live forever in his fallen state.Just Tom said:
Yes, I know the parable. Parables are not literally true stories they are allegories and have a deeper spiritual meaning. Besides, the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" is found only in two verses of the Gospel of Luke, it isn't even mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Just Tom
New member
Wow Logos,
This post was worse than the first. ALL doesn't always mean ALL as in every single thing. "All the world has gone nuts" doesn't mean every single person. Are you really basing your argument on this..? You read into the statements what you want them to say just like you say that ET people read into the Genesis passage that God is a liar and satan wasn't..
They died physically and because of their disobedience they were separated from God spiritually. Once man fell and became aware of the knowledge of good and evil he couldn't live forever in that state it would have been horrible for God and for Us. Thus God kick Adam and Eve out.. Their Spirits still lived since they were created in the image and likeness of God. They were now just separated from God which is why as soon as God found out about what had happened he made a plan to restore the spiritual correctness with God not the physical, we will still suffer that death because of Adam. Thus if what you say is true about that passage in Genesis then with Jesus's death on the cross we shouldn't die anymore since He conquered death and Thus when we accept him we get that tree of life that Adam and Eve were denied so none of us should die..
But that just ain't so is it all of us will die even if we have partaken in the tree of life. So it must mean something other than what you think it does..
This post was worse than the first. ALL doesn't always mean ALL as in every single thing. "All the world has gone nuts" doesn't mean every single person. Are you really basing your argument on this..? You read into the statements what you want them to say just like you say that ET people read into the Genesis passage that God is a liar and satan wasn't..
They died physically and because of their disobedience they were separated from God spiritually. Once man fell and became aware of the knowledge of good and evil he couldn't live forever in that state it would have been horrible for God and for Us. Thus God kick Adam and Eve out.. Their Spirits still lived since they were created in the image and likeness of God. They were now just separated from God which is why as soon as God found out about what had happened he made a plan to restore the spiritual correctness with God not the physical, we will still suffer that death because of Adam. Thus if what you say is true about that passage in Genesis then with Jesus's death on the cross we shouldn't die anymore since He conquered death and Thus when we accept him we get that tree of life that Adam and Eve were denied so none of us should die..
But that just ain't so is it all of us will die even if we have partaken in the tree of life. So it must mean something other than what you think it does..
Nomad
New member
Hmmm....I just skimmed the posts, I'll get back to them later when I have more time (it's finals week) and post more thoughts on them, but one thought I did have was this:
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
(1Jo 2:2)
Logos used this in his argument and I don't quite see it the same way.
I think here that John differentiates between 'ours' and the 'whole world' perhaps to emphasize that salvation is open to all people, be they Jews or Gentiles, or the 'saved' and 'unsaved.' For an analogy, it would be like me going in front of my classroom and saying that I have a free movie ticket for everyone in the classroom, but then only half the class takes it. It's open to everyone, but not everyone got in on it. (my apologies for reducing salvation to a movie....especially with the crummy movies they turn out these days)
Those are my thoughts....yours? :idunno:
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
(1Jo 2:2)
Logos used this in his argument and I don't quite see it the same way.
I think here that John differentiates between 'ours' and the 'whole world' perhaps to emphasize that salvation is open to all people, be they Jews or Gentiles, or the 'saved' and 'unsaved.' For an analogy, it would be like me going in front of my classroom and saying that I have a free movie ticket for everyone in the classroom, but then only half the class takes it. It's open to everyone, but not everyone got in on it. (my apologies for reducing salvation to a movie....especially with the crummy movies they turn out these days)
Those are my thoughts....yours? :idunno:
Just Tom said:
All =
A-1,Adjective,3956,pas>
Radically means "all."
Used without the article it means "every," every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Eph. 2:21, "every building," and the text in Eph. 3:15, "every family," and the RV marg. of Acts 2:36, "every house;" or it may signify "the highest degree," the maximum of what is referred to, as, "with all boldness" Acts 4:29. Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like "Israel," it signifies either "all" or "the whole," e.g., Matt. 2:3; Acts 2:36. Used with the article, it means the whole of one object. In the plural it signifies "the totality of the persons or things referred to." Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning "everyone" or "anyone." In the plural with a noun it means "all." One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies "wholly, together, in all ways, in all things," Acts 20:35; 1 Cor. 9:25. The neuter plural without the article signifies "all things severally," e.g., John 1:3; 1 Cor. 2:10; preceded by the article it denotes "all things," as constituting a whole, e.g., Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 3:9.
See EVERY, Note (1), WHOLE.
<A-2,Adjective,537,hapas>
A strengthened form of pas, signifies "quite all, the whole," and, in the plural, "all, all things." Preceded by an article and followed by a noun it means "the whole of." In 1 Tim. 1:16 the significance is "the whole of His longsuffering," or "the fulness of His longsuffering."
See EVERY, WHOLE.
<A-3,Adjective,3650,holos>
"The whole, all," is most frequently used with the article followed by a noun, e.g., Matt. 4:23. It is used with the article alone, in John 7:23, "every whit;" Acts 11:26; 21:31; 28:30; Titus 1:11; Luke 5:5, in the best texts. See ALTOGETHER.
Note: The adjective holokleros, lit., "whole-lot, entire," stresses the separate parts which constitute the whole, no part being incomplete.
See ENTIRE.
<B-1,Adverb,3654,holos>
Signifies "at all," Matt. 5:34; 1 Cor. 15:29; "actually," 1 Cor. 5:1, RV (AV, wrongly, "commonly"); "altogether," 1 Cor. 6:7 (AV, "utterly").
Notes: (1) Holoteles, from A, No. 3, and telos, "complete," signifies "wholly, through and through," 1 Thess. 5:23, lit., "whole complete;" there, not an increasing degree of sanctification is intended, but the sanctification of the believer in every part of his being.
(2) The synonym katholou, a strengthened form of holou signifies "at all," Acts 4:18.
<B-2,Adverb,3843,pantos>
When used without a negative, signifies "wholly, entirely, by all means," Acts 18:21 (AV); 1 Cor. 9:22; "altogether," 1 Cor. 9:10; "no doubt, doubtless," Luke 4:23, RV (AV, surely"); Acts 28:4. In 21:22 it is translated "certainly," RV, for AV, "needs" (lit., "by all means"). With a negative it signifies "in no wise," Rom. 3:9; 1 Cor. 5:10; 16:12 ("at all").
See ALTOGETHER, DOUBT (NO), MEANS, SURELY, WISE.
<C-1,Pronoun,3745,hosa>
The neuter plural of hosos, "as much as," chiefly used in the plural, is sometimes rendered "all that," e.g., Acts 4:23; 14:27. It really means "whatsoever things." See Luke 9:10, RV, "what things."
Vine's Expositary HERE
Just Tom said:
You're right in that ALL doesnt always mean ALL, there's several verses in the Bible that contain the word all and sometimes its hyperbole, but in passages of the likes of "God being all in all" or paying a ransom for ALL men, being the saviour of ALL men hardly indicates hyperbole, if your argument is to say that every time the Bible mentions the word all it really means some/many/or a few then your own position is flawed.....
logos_x
New member
Chileice said:
Actually, this verse doesn't say eternal in either part.
Aionion chastisment and aionion life, The punishment of the ages and the life of the ages.
Later, after the resurrection from death, we "put on immmmortality".
This is why there is eternal life. But the verse in question isn't saying anything about eternal life. Since it isn't when it talks about life, it isn't when it talks about chastisememt.
Hope this helps.
That_Bloke
New member
The problem with this debate lies within the question itself, I feel: "Will unbelievers spend eternity in the Lake of Fire?"
I used to believe that Christians will spend eternity with God in Heaven, and unbelievers will spend eternity in Hell, where there is pain, suffering, etc. Over the past 5 or 6 months, my views were changed slightly. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention about humans having "eternal torment" for not believing in Jesus. Allow me to explain myself.
Genesis 2:17: but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.
This death is not refering to a physical death. This can be seen clearly by the fact that Adam lived for 930 years, most of which were spent after eating of the fruit! "Death" here refers to a spiritual death - separation from God. These effects were felt right from the moment Adam and Eve bit into the fruit. From the moment they sinned, they felt the guilt of the sin, the sadness, the separation from God. Their spiritual life was destroyed.
Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you sin, you pay the penalty - death. Spiritual death. You feel the separation from God. But the free gift of God is eternal life - the opposite of death! Not just "living forever", but having life, eternal, divine happiness, and feeling close to God for eternity! Life to the full! As Jesus says:
John 10:10: I came that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Jesus gives us a life worth living! Not a life full of death, pain, sorrow, sadness, depression. Eternal life starts here, on earth, before we physically die.
Our life on earth is where the test comes: to believe God, and accept the sacrifice jesus made; or to reject God, claiming it was all lies. After this life on earth, it is too late to change your mind! God has given us enough chances. When we physically die, we cannot say to God, "Actually, I have changed my mind! Now that I have seen that you are real, and that those Christians were right about Heaven and Hell, I would like to be let in to Heaven!" Its too late.
But would God really torment people for eternity? As I have understood it, Hell is likened to Gehenna: a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, where there is a fire which never goes out. But, if a piece of rubbish is thrown on that dump, then the eternal fire will burn it up. The piece of rubbish does not burn for eternity! This is my understanding of Hell - when an unbeliever dies, they will be thrown onto the "garbage dump of Heaven": Hell. Here, they face their punishment until they are burned up. (Whether it is a literal fire with a literal burning up, I do not know.) In Hell, the soul is destroyed: it does not "live forever" in a state of eternal torment (after all, this would effectively be eternal life - a life of eternal torment). This could be where the "second death" in Revelation comes in.
The only "beings" who are tormented for eternity are the devil, the beast, and the false prophet:
Revelation 20:10: And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
There is nothing here to suggest that humans will be tormented for eternity.
Matthew 25:46: These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Eternal punishment. Not eternal torment. The difference is that "torment" means pain and suffering for eternity. The wages of sin is death, not torment. When a soul is destroyed, it will never be brought back to a state where it can live again. Hence, the punishment - death - is eternal. The death is forever, because there is no coming back from it.
This is also shown in the famous verse of:
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
If you do not believe in Jesus, then you will perish - your soul will die. If you do believe in Jesus, then you will have a life worth living - a life spent with God - for all eternity!
As to what actually happens in Hell, I do not know. There may well be torment, pain, suffering. I simply do not know.
So, as I said at the start, I feel the question is at fault: unbelievers will not spend eternity in a lake of fire, but they will be there until they are destroyed.
Please feel free to respond to me directly (mikeyg_35 (at) hotmail.com): I would love to know what people think of this idea, as it is new to me, but it seems to make sense!
Mike.
I used to believe that Christians will spend eternity with God in Heaven, and unbelievers will spend eternity in Hell, where there is pain, suffering, etc. Over the past 5 or 6 months, my views were changed slightly. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention about humans having "eternal torment" for not believing in Jesus. Allow me to explain myself.
Genesis 2:17: but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.
This death is not refering to a physical death. This can be seen clearly by the fact that Adam lived for 930 years, most of which were spent after eating of the fruit! "Death" here refers to a spiritual death - separation from God. These effects were felt right from the moment Adam and Eve bit into the fruit. From the moment they sinned, they felt the guilt of the sin, the sadness, the separation from God. Their spiritual life was destroyed.
Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you sin, you pay the penalty - death. Spiritual death. You feel the separation from God. But the free gift of God is eternal life - the opposite of death! Not just "living forever", but having life, eternal, divine happiness, and feeling close to God for eternity! Life to the full! As Jesus says:
John 10:10: I came that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Jesus gives us a life worth living! Not a life full of death, pain, sorrow, sadness, depression. Eternal life starts here, on earth, before we physically die.
Our life on earth is where the test comes: to believe God, and accept the sacrifice jesus made; or to reject God, claiming it was all lies. After this life on earth, it is too late to change your mind! God has given us enough chances. When we physically die, we cannot say to God, "Actually, I have changed my mind! Now that I have seen that you are real, and that those Christians were right about Heaven and Hell, I would like to be let in to Heaven!" Its too late.
But would God really torment people for eternity? As I have understood it, Hell is likened to Gehenna: a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, where there is a fire which never goes out. But, if a piece of rubbish is thrown on that dump, then the eternal fire will burn it up. The piece of rubbish does not burn for eternity! This is my understanding of Hell - when an unbeliever dies, they will be thrown onto the "garbage dump of Heaven": Hell. Here, they face their punishment until they are burned up. (Whether it is a literal fire with a literal burning up, I do not know.) In Hell, the soul is destroyed: it does not "live forever" in a state of eternal torment (after all, this would effectively be eternal life - a life of eternal torment). This could be where the "second death" in Revelation comes in.
The only "beings" who are tormented for eternity are the devil, the beast, and the false prophet:
Revelation 20:10: And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
There is nothing here to suggest that humans will be tormented for eternity.
Matthew 25:46: These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Eternal punishment. Not eternal torment. The difference is that "torment" means pain and suffering for eternity. The wages of sin is death, not torment. When a soul is destroyed, it will never be brought back to a state where it can live again. Hence, the punishment - death - is eternal. The death is forever, because there is no coming back from it.
This is also shown in the famous verse of:
John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
If you do not believe in Jesus, then you will perish - your soul will die. If you do believe in Jesus, then you will have a life worth living - a life spent with God - for all eternity!
As to what actually happens in Hell, I do not know. There may well be torment, pain, suffering. I simply do not know.
So, as I said at the start, I feel the question is at fault: unbelievers will not spend eternity in a lake of fire, but they will be there until they are destroyed.
Please feel free to respond to me directly (mikeyg_35 (at) hotmail.com): I would love to know what people think of this idea, as it is new to me, but it seems to make sense!
Mike.
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