BRXII Battle talk

[red77]

Seems that the Universal Sentimentalists had no answer, none at all. Have any idea why they would ignore Revelation 20:10?

"sentimentalists"?? Does that imply that anyone who has a basic revulsion towards sensless suffering is sentimental? Grief.....:doh: :rain:

This verse has already been answered by logos X in the battle royale as well as on this thread itself, have you actually read them?

 

[red77]

They are consciously tormented day and night forever and ever and they never get out. Which is exactly what the verse says. Anyone who denies it denies the Word of God and calls God a liar.

It's funny how you can read this verse as literal with no deeper meaning and yet have such difficulty with Tim 4:10 where there has to be so much wrangling and redefining......

 

[red77]

:baby: If you can't stand the heat stay outta the kitchen Freelight.



I am not anti-love, and never said any such thing. I explained in my reply to your post. See: HOGWASH.

God is love, and His love led Him to act by sending His only Son to die on the cross for your sins and mine. If a person rejects the love of God found in Christ, they have no hope but certain judgment because God is also righteous, holy, and God HATES sin.



You are not God's eternal Witness. You are a phony and a false teacher Freelight. And the end result will be misleading anyone you teach to an eternity apart from God. That is why I say in some ways I feel sorry for you. But you are also willfully blinded because you have a pseudo-Christian worldview that allows you to accept the false teachings of men and at the same time claim you believe the Bible. The problem you have is that your positions DENY the Word of God. There is no way to Heaven apart from Jesus Christ. If you say there is you are a liar and the truth is not in you!

If God is "love" then any other attributes become part of that, including wrath, justice, retribution, mercy, compassion etc etc etc, there is no 'love' in having people in an unending state of conscious torment that accomplishes nothing other than senseless suffering, if ET is true then God is wrath and not love......

 

[red77]

I agree mostly with Hank's position. What I took exception to was terming it a "resurrection". That is a very specific Biblical term that has important meaning. The nature of the bodies they are given is not really disclosed to us, other than yes they are indestrible in the sense that they will be tormented day and night forever and ever, and never burn up.

if the nature of the bodies is never actually disclosed then does it not make sense to at least entertain the possibility that the interpretation of ET as physical pointless torment is suspect? Seriously - what does ET mean? It means that sin and evil are never fully vanquished as there has to be some sort of realm where these 'sinners' are kept in a state of perpetual suffering, sin and eveil are therefore never vanquished, even though I'm no annihilationist it would make more sense than ET because everything evil is destroyed.....
What purpose does it serve? Apparently none but the unending suffering of helpless beings, usually this would invoke feelings of disgust and horror on a moral level because most of us can recognise that inflicting torture and bullying pain is ethically wrong even on a temporary basis.....
If God is actually love then love does no harm, whatever punishment is dispensed is done with a reason and not forever with no purpose otherwise wrath overides love......

 

[freelight]

The Logic of Love and endearing grace to save all souls

The Logic of Love and endearing grace to save all souls

if the nature of the bodies is never actually disclosed then does it not make sense to at least entertain the possibility that the interpretation of ET as physical pointless torment is suspect? Seriously - what does ET mean? It means that sin and evil are never fully vanquished as there has to be some sort of realm where these 'sinners' are kept in a state of perpetual suffering, sin and eveil are therefore never vanquished, even though I'm no annihilationist it would make more sense than ET because everything evil is destroyed.....
What purpose does it serve? Apparently none but the unending suffering of helpless beings, usually this would invoke feelings of disgust and horror on a moral level because most of us can recognise that inflicting torture and bullying pain is ethically wrong even on a temporary basis.....
If God is actually love then love does no harm, whatever punishment is dispensed is done with a reason and not forever with no purpose otherwise wrath overides love......

***

:thumb: - any rational persons who is not even a 'theist' can see the 'irrationality' and utter senselessness of a 'higher power' imposing upon souls an everlasting punishment that serves no end, and has no end. This is illogical to all that is good, holy and just.

Punishments, sufferings, reapings of wrong-doing all have their consequences 'in time' and thru such...souls learn their lessons and endure being afforded opportunities for reform, rehabiliation and transformation thru divine grace. Punishing ones 'children/offspring' for all eternity for one life time of so called 'sin and rebellion' is utterly UNJUST and non-sensical. Anyone who holds to this abominable doctrine does not understand the Love of the Heavenly Father whose WILL is LIFE. God is Wholly JUST. His Justice/Righteousness demands that each soul be afforded 'thru Love' the full opportunities and 'time & space' to unfold their innate and divine potential as conscious beings in the greater plan and purpose of LIFE. Torturing and detaining souls to an eternity of banishment and agony is something only a Tryrant or Monster would do. It is totally objectionable and unbecoming of even an earthly father to do this to his children. How much more Jesus taught, does our Heavenly Father love us and provide for us....KNOWING our needs even before we ask or call upon His Name.

Love is eternal! Love does not subject anyone to an eternity of punishment. Love does not condemn anyone to a state of eternal despair and hopeleness. No no no. This is not Love! It hurts the very heart of Love to imagine that anyone could presume that this is Love.


***


paul​

 

[PKevman]

***

:thumb: - any rational persons who is not even a 'theist' can see the 'irrationality' and utter senselessness of a 'higher power' imposing upon souls an everlasting punishment that serves no end, and has no end. This is illogical to all that is good, holy and just.

Punishments, sufferings, reapings of wrong-doing all have their consequences 'in time' and thru such...souls learn their lessons and endure being afforded opportunities for reform, rehabiliation and transformation thru divine grace. Punishing ones 'children/offspring' for all eternity for one life time of so called 'sin and rebellion' is utterly UNJUST and non-sensical. Anyone who holds to this abominable doctrine does not understand the Love of the Heavenly Father whose WILL is LIFE. God is Wholly JUST. His Justice/Righteousness demands that each soul be afforded 'thru Love' the full opportunities and 'time & space' to unfold their innate and divine potential as conscious beings in the greater plan and purpose of LIFE. Torturing and detaining souls to an eternity of banishment and agony is something only a Tryrant or Monster would do. It is totally objectionable and unbecoming of even an earthly father to do this to his children. How much more Jesus taught, does our Heavenly Father love us and provide for us....KNOWING our needs even before we ask or call upon His Name.

Love is eternal! Love does not subject anyone to an eternity of punishment. Love does not condemn anyone to a state of eternal despair and hopeleness. No no no. This is not Love! It hurts the very heart of Love to imagine that anyone could presume that this is Love.


***


paul​

Your arguments are old and tired and have been refuted many times over in this thread and throughout the ages in Christianity. God's love was shown to the world by Him coming to this earth to die on a cross for our sins. If someone rejects that sacrifice they reject the love of God and they don't receive His love but His wrath.
I notice you don't bother to post any Bible verses whatsoever in your ramblings. It is because you don't care what the Word of God says as evidenced by your earlier rants against it.

By what authority do you stand against the things that are stated very clearly in God's Word? On your own authority? You have no right to speak for God when He has spoken clearly for Himself and your message is opposite of what He Himself says.

Also, I refuted your whole argument about fathers not subjecting their children to that type of cruelty before. Those who do not accept Jesus Christ are NOT God's children. You believe in false doctrines that teach that "all people are the children of God". That is a lie, and the Word of God makes it clear that it is only through faith in God's Son that we receive the Spirit of adoption.

Romans 8:1-17 is powerful:



Free from Indwelling Sin

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Sonship Through the Spirit

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.





verse #1 is especially clear:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus


IN CHRIST=No condemnation
WITHOUT CHRIST=Condemned!

Indeed Jesus Himself verified this for us when He Himself said those who do not believe in Him are condemned already.

 

[PKevman]

so called 'sin and rebellion'

Have you ever told a lie freelight?

 

[freelight]

being true to the truth within...............

being true to the truth within...............

Have you ever told a lie freelight?

Hi Pk,......you and I both know where this is going. (not going there)

Read it in my 'context'. Here is my sentence -

Punishing ones 'children/offspring' for all eternity for one life time of so called 'sin and rebellion' is utterly UNJUST and non-sensical.

Punishing and eternally tormenting a soul for all eternity for one mortal lifetime of so called 'sin and rebellion' is irrational, absurd, illogical and inhuman. Its an insult against God and his spiritual intelligence, love and wisdom. This has been trumpeted but to deaf ears...and laid before eyes glazed over with the crust of mistranslation and distortion of divine Love and Justice.

All my former commentaries stand as a witness to the truth of Gods Loyalty to His Will and his everlasting mercy. We have no choice but to accept our disagreements at the point on these vital issues in mutual respect.

There can be no expansion of consciousenss or broadening of horizons in intellectual or spiritual learning if one is wholly convinced he has all the truth about any given subject, and we have to accept that there are areas that we can investigate/explore with all our given faculties along with divine inspiration affording greater light, and still there is always the lingering 'unknown'. Most of us can accept this of course.

I draw my insights from knowledge within... further enhanced from the culminative gleanings of many schools, traditions and fields of science(knowing). There will be a limitation and lack of coordinate understanding in much of our dialogue because of this, since you are limited and drawing only from one 'collection of books' and theological pursuasion(soteriology) as your 'source of authority'. God of course is the Sole Source of Truth, being LIGHT. I do not often have to 'quote scriptures' like many seem to feel the need to,...as I express the universal truths of spirit that many scriptures already express. Spirit is truth.

I dont know what else I can share here. I have envisioned my next devoted, disciplined study of the 'Bible' will be very illumining....but I'm currently engaged in 'other' reading-meditations at the moment. {Truth is Universal} I have had very deep communions with Deity and His Heart thru the OT and NT, of course, and I have never denied their inspiration. I do not limit God to a book however or 'letters' for His Spirit is INFINITE. I take light where it is actually afforded within every venue that has such genuine dispensations. I know my gift and calling enough to at least be pioneering my path and make no apologies for it. I am true to the Logos within....and unfold by its light.


Peace,


paul

 

[Damian]

Punishing and eternally tormenting a soul for all eternity for one mortal lifetime of so called 'sin and rebellion' is irrational, absurd, illogical and inhuman.

Agreed.

 

[CabinetMaker]

freelight[/B]]
Punishing and eternally tormenting a soul for all eternity for one mortal lifetime of so called 'sin and rebellion' is irrational, absurd, illogical and inhuman.

Agreed.

How little you understand about who Jesus is and what He did for you. For all of us. Until you understand exactly what Jesus did for you, you will never understands Jesus judgment as described in Mathew 25.

 

[red77]

[/B]




How little you understand about who Jesus is and what He did for you. For all of us. Until you understand exactly what Jesus did for you, you will never understands Jesus judgment as described in Mathew 25.

It doesn't take much to understand that tormenting helpless sentient beings is wrong period....

 

[CabinetMaker]

It doesn't take much to understand that tormenting helpless sentient beings is wrong period....

There is your first mistake, assuming they are helpless.

 

[red77]

There is your first mistake, assuming they are helpless.

what? going by the traditional view of hell then anyone who is suffering there is powerless to prevent the torment inflicted on them, is this not true?

 

[freelight]

the 'good news' is positive

the 'good news' is positive

It doesn't take much to understand that tormenting helpless sentient beings is wrong period....

Such pictures and illustrations in certain writings are metaphorical, further re-inforced by pop-theology, traditional imagery, translation-preferences, belief-systems amassed over the centures(much from the dark ages) and so on.

God gave us the faculities of reason, conscience, intelligence, logic and moral sense, at least an essential residue. The law of karma/compensation is self-evident to most sentient beings,....as all good and bad thoughts/action have certain consequences,....the universe is pervaded by universal laws. - souls are further conditioned by psychic/spiritual laws determining their station and unfolding destinies(these effect their soul-conditions). Thru-out all of these currents.....divine Love and Will are the original and supreme forces governing and guiding the Whole of Existence. Divine Providence is eternal, the Reality of God in His Omnipresence Unchanging.

All souls are His, springing from His Being, their spirits returning to Him. He governs, rules and judges all His offspring in this and all worlds with Perfect Wisdom, mediating his divine Mercy and Justice in perfect execution. All his eternal attributes are satisfied in his rulings and He ever shows HimSelf to be a merciful, gracious and bountifully loving FATHER. His very Nature is Love, and His Will ever is permeated by its Essence.

This emphasis on souls going to hell, burning in a lake of fire and all the rest of apocalyptic imagery does the real good news of Jesus who came to teach and introduce man to the kingdom of God in their midst an injustice. - an unbalanced monstrocity it is. Depticitons of suffering, outer darkness, a dumping ground of burning waste(Gehenna), weeping and gnashing of teeth are all illustrative descriptions of various consequences of wrongdoing, sin, continued rebellion, etc. -the laws of sowing and reaping go without saying, yet the good news of Jesus was that all men can receive the gift of seeing and entering the kingdom of the heavens(The Spirit) right here on earth...and come into the realization of their own sonship with God as their eternal Father. This positive aspect of the gospel is to be heralded as the pre-eminent gem of enduring value. The emphasis and wrongful doctrine of ECT is a false portrayal of a benevolent Creator....and the teaching about sin and 'hell'(in its correct light and definitions) will be afforded the student in their spiritual studies in balanced perspective and understanding and in their own experience. Our emphasis however is growing in grace, enjoying original goodness and walking in the Spirit-abundance of our divine inheritance. Celebrating the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of Man.


paul

 

[PKevman]

[/B]




How little you understand about who Jesus is and what He did for you. For all of us. Until you understand exactly what Jesus did for you, you will never understands Jesus judgment as described in Mathew 25.

Indeed they refuse to understand that God hates sin, and that God hates evil. They also refuse to understand that we as Christians are commanded to hate evil and cling to what is good.

Further they refuse to understand that sin leads to death. Because all have sinned, all die. Physical and spiritual death is the default condition for all men. But for those who believe, the 2nd death will have no power over them.

Continue to stand for the truth CabinetMaker. Good job!

 

[Frank Ernest]

what? going by the traditional view of hell then anyone who is suffering there is powerless to prevent the torment inflicted on them, is this not true?

Once said "anyone" has elected to go there, no. Actions have consequences. I understand you find that uncomfortable, but that's the way it is. Perhaps you should look into actions which will preclude those consequences.

 

[red77]

Indeed they refuse to understand that God hates sin, and that God hates evil. They also refuse to understand that we as Christians are commanded to hate evil and cling to what is good.

Further they refuse to understand that sin leads to death. Because all have sinned, all die. Physical and spiritual death is the default condition for all men. But for those who believe, the 2nd death will have no power over them.

Continue to stand for the truth CabinetMaker. Good job!

senseless tormenting of sentient beings IS evil! This is yet again a total strawman, no universalist argues that God advocates sin and evil but that the pointless pain and suffering of sentient beings accomplishes nothing and ironically keeps sin and evil present throughout eternity - with NO purpose whatsoever.... :doh:

 

[red77]

Once said "anyone" has elected to go there, no. Actions have consequences. I understand you find that uncomfortable, but that's the way it is. Perhaps you should look into actions which will preclude those consequences.

Frank - no offence but the last time we spoke you weren't even sure whether ECT was correct theology, and no-one has ever argued that actions don't have consequences anyway so what argument you are trying to establish with that remark is bemusing to say the least......

 

[CabinetMaker]

what? going by the traditional view of hell then anyone who is suffering there is powerless to prevent the torment inflicted on them, is this not true?

But they are not powerless to prevent themselves from going there. You are so concerned about people ending up in the lake of fire that you utterly ignore a persons life before ending up there. Not one person ends up in the lake that does not deserve to be there. You and I are not the judge of who goes with Jesus and who goes to the lake, Jesus is. His judgment will be, by definition, fair and just.

 

[red77]

But they are not powerless to prevent themselves from going there. You are so concerned about people ending up in the lake of fire that you utterly ignore a persons life before ending up there. Not one person ends up in the lake that does not deserve to be there. You and I are not the judge of who goes with Jesus and who goes to the lake, Jesus is. His judgment will be, by definition, fair and just.

Um, actually I don't ignore the persons life before they die at all, I think that the suffering that is prevalent throughout the world matters a great deal! I just do not accept that pointless agonising torturous suffering makes any logical or moral sense, and you can't deny that in your theology those who end up in your interpretation of the LOF have any choice but to be there - therefore they are helpless and can't do anything to alleviate their suffering.....