Revelation 20:10. Please interpret correctly.
BRXII Battle talk
- Thread starter Poly
- Start date
- Status
Balder
New member
Please interpret Revelation 20:10 in conjunction with the following passage:
And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
...and tell me if you think God plans to subject individuals not found in the Book of Life to the same punishment and torment as Satan.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Mono Theos Ultima!
Mono Theos Ultima!
Mono Theos Ultima!
*~*~*~
Greetings all,
What is most amazing is how some place literal translations of a few passages and take them for 'absolute truth'. They hold to these cryptions written long ago and take them at face-value and then impose them as definitives of what God is 'supposedly' going to do....without getting to know God first as He actually exists in TRUTH. Knowing God first is fundamental and this 'Real God' is Eternal Love and Light. Divine Mercy is everlasting. Gods Supreme Goodness is INFINITE. Realizing this Truth....we see that nothing can annul the underlying, all-pervading Power of divine Will which upholds all things and is forever bringing to pass the plans and purposes of Gods Heart. God Alone is Absolute Truth,...being all Love, all Light, NOW and forever. Is there a power greater than Gods? Is God not able by His Omniradiant Love and Supreme Power to draw all men to HimSelf? Divine Love being Eternal, Infinite, Immutable, Inviolate, Imperishable, Undending... ultimately and utterly prevails.
This is the Triumph of the One Divine and Eternal LIFE....the glory of the Christ, the Restoration of all creation in the Messiah, the restitution of all things, the culmination of Loves enfolding, the apex of Mercys embrace. GOD: All in all.
*~*~*~
paul
Greetings all,
What is most amazing is how some place literal translations of a few passages and take them for 'absolute truth'. They hold to these cryptions written long ago and take them at face-value and then impose them as definitives of what God is 'supposedly' going to do....without getting to know God first as He actually exists in TRUTH. Knowing God first is fundamental and this 'Real God' is Eternal Love and Light. Divine Mercy is everlasting. Gods Supreme Goodness is INFINITE. Realizing this Truth....we see that nothing can annul the underlying, all-pervading Power of divine Will which upholds all things and is forever bringing to pass the plans and purposes of Gods Heart. God Alone is Absolute Truth,...being all Love, all Light, NOW and forever. Is there a power greater than Gods? Is God not able by His Omniradiant Love and Supreme Power to draw all men to HimSelf? Divine Love being Eternal, Infinite, Immutable, Inviolate, Imperishable, Undending... ultimately and utterly prevails.
This is the Triumph of the One Divine and Eternal LIFE....the glory of the Christ, the Restoration of all creation in the Messiah, the restitution of all things, the culmination of Loves enfolding, the apex of Mercys embrace. GOD: All in all.
*~*~*~
paul
PKevman
New member
HOGWASH!
Freelight, you need to stick with your metaphysical mumbo jumbo. God's Word is clear that those who don't repent and turn from their sins will be judged eternally and cast into the Lake of Fire with no hope of ever getting out. When you or any Universalist can provide the Bible verse that clearly shows anyone getting out of the Lake of Fire you will have a ground to stand on. This debate and the BR go back to early December of last year, and I have been debating this with Universalists on this board for almost a year, and not one Universalist has been able to provide that Bible verse that clearly teaches someone gets out of the Lake of Fire. You can base your views on wild speculations all you want to, but we will base our views on what God says in His Word.
PKevman
New member
They are consciously tormented day and night forever and ever and they never get out. Which is exactly what the verse says. Anyone who denies it denies the Word of God and calls God a liar.
Balder
New member
Are they consciously and bodily tortured forever and ever, since they are resurrected first and then, apparently, tossed into the Lake of Fire?
PKevman
New member
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
The fact that it is the 2nd death indicates the finality of it. God never intended for the FIRST death to enter into creation. Sin plunged death on the entire world. God will plunge death into the Lake of Fire along with all of those who don't have their names written in the Book of Life. They never get out, and are tormented day and night forever and ever in the Lake of Fire. It's over. It's final. Only trusting Christ will save a person's soul.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
The fact that it is the 2nd death indicates the finality of it. God never intended for the FIRST death to enter into creation. Sin plunged death on the entire world. God will plunge death into the Lake of Fire along with all of those who don't have their names written in the Book of Life. They never get out, and are tormented day and night forever and ever in the Lake of Fire. It's over. It's final. Only trusting Christ will save a person's soul.
PKevman
New member
Their worm does not die and the fire is never quenched. See Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:44-48
Balder
New member
Is that a yes?
PKevman
New member
God says yes. It is in the texts I quoted. (Although it's not termed a "resurrection".) A judgment is not a resurrection. The judgment is called the second death, not resurrection. Only Christians participate in the resurrection.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
knowing God is essential
knowing God is essential
I just got a neg rep from PK for glorifying the eternality of Gods Love. Imagine that. How could a minister of God be anti-Love? Love is everything.
My last commentary stands, and it has Gods eternal Witness behind it, because it is TRUTH.
paul
knowing God is essential
I just got a neg rep from PK for glorifying the eternality of Gods Love. Imagine that. How could a minister of God be anti-Love? Love is everything.
My last commentary stands, and it has Gods eternal Witness behind it, because it is TRUTH.
paul
Balder
New member
Aren't all the dead raised into new bodies prior to the judgment? This is what Hank Hanegraaf teaches in his radio ministry. He says those who are condemned are tossed in their reconstituted (and indestructible) bodies into the Lake of Fire.
PKevman
New member
freelight said:
:baby: If you can't stand the heat stay outta the kitchen Freelight.
I am not anti-love, and never said any such thing. I explained in my reply to your post. See: HOGWASH.
God is love, and His love led Him to act by sending His only Son to die on the cross for your sins and mine. If a person rejects the love of God found in Christ, they have no hope but certain judgment because God is also righteous, holy, and God HATES sin.
You are not God's eternal Witness. You are a phony and a false teacher Freelight. And the end result will be misleading anyone you teach to an eternity apart from God. That is why I say in some ways I feel sorry for you. But you are also willfully blinded because you have a pseudo-Christian worldview that allows you to accept the false teachings of men and at the same time claim you believe the Bible. The problem you have is that your positions DENY the Word of God. There is no way to Heaven apart from Jesus Christ. If you say there is you are a liar and the truth is not in you!
PKevman
New member
I agree mostly with Hank's position. What I took exception to was terming it a "resurrection". That is a very specific Biblical term that has important meaning. The nature of the bodies they are given is not really disclosed to us, other than yes they are indestrible in the sense that they will be tormented day and night forever and ever, and never burn up.
Balder
New member
And you do not find this offensive, that God would give people indestructible bodies before throwing them into a fire?
Redfin
New member
Since when do you imagine that you get to define in advance the terms of victory or defeat on this issue, and on the basis of a verse, the particular phrasing of which, you know does not exist?!?
No one is falling for it... :think:
Redfin
New member
I can't speak for Freelight, but I can assure you that Christian Universalism completely agrees with that statement.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
The Restoration of All in Christ
The Restoration of All in Christ
Who could hold to such a belief that this life is the 'only chance' thereby presuming that Gods Love and mercy are NOT eternal? Divine Love will afford all souls every opportunity, not just limited to one lifetime, of turning towards the Light. Eternal Love cannot be limited to a mortals 'belief' that this life is the only 'chance' one gets....then its off to the lake of fire to be tortured forever. This is absurd and against the very nature of Love. It defies spiritual intelligence and all rationality. (but we've been thru this so many times before and it appears one wont 'get it' until the light dawns).
Universalism does not lead people to hell,....people choose hell for certain seasons of time for whatever reason. ('hell' here referring to any state of suffering incurred by transgressing natural and divine laws, the anti-thesis of 'heaven', the disobedience to Love). Gods Love however is Eternal. The Will of God is likewise. Love never fails. The Ultimacy of God triumphs thru time and eternity. Think of that, when you entertain the fable of souls being tortured in hell-fire for all eternity with no hope of rehabilitation or remedy...and you it may dawn on you one day of the utter foolishness of such a false doctrine.
As far as Rev. 20 goes,....logos_x touched on this in the Battle Royal, as far as the translation of 'forever and ever' - (meaning 'unto ages of ages'......this not meaning necessarily 'for all eternity' - it can refer to an indefinite period of time, which can have an end). All souls will not suffer forever as a punishment inflicted by divine decree, but will suffer only as long as they reject God...but divine Love is always there calling them back home. This is the Nature of LOVE, a Loving Heavenly Father whose investment of existence/life within the souls of His Offspring shall not be in vain! The Preeminence of God-Reality is always SUPREME! Love triumphs!
paul
The Restoration of All in Christ
Who could hold to such a belief that this life is the 'only chance' thereby presuming that Gods Love and mercy are NOT eternal? Divine Love will afford all souls every opportunity, not just limited to one lifetime, of turning towards the Light. Eternal Love cannot be limited to a mortals 'belief' that this life is the only 'chance' one gets....then its off to the lake of fire to be tortured forever. This is absurd and against the very nature of Love. It defies spiritual intelligence and all rationality. (but we've been thru this so many times before and it appears one wont 'get it' until the light dawns).
Universalism does not lead people to hell,....people choose hell for certain seasons of time for whatever reason. ('hell' here referring to any state of suffering incurred by transgressing natural and divine laws, the anti-thesis of 'heaven', the disobedience to Love). Gods Love however is Eternal. The Will of God is likewise. Love never fails. The Ultimacy of God triumphs thru time and eternity. Think of that, when you entertain the fable of souls being tortured in hell-fire for all eternity with no hope of rehabilitation or remedy...and you it may dawn on you one day of the utter foolishness of such a false doctrine.
As far as Rev. 20 goes,....logos_x touched on this in the Battle Royal, as far as the translation of 'forever and ever' - (meaning 'unto ages of ages'......this not meaning necessarily 'for all eternity' - it can refer to an indefinite period of time, which can have an end). All souls will not suffer forever as a punishment inflicted by divine decree, but will suffer only as long as they reject God...but divine Love is always there calling them back home. This is the Nature of LOVE, a Loving Heavenly Father whose investment of existence/life within the souls of His Offspring shall not be in vain! The Preeminence of God-Reality is always SUPREME! Love triumphs!
paul
PKevman
New member
Wouldn't you find it offensive if you gave your only Son that you loved with all of your heart as a sacrifice to save someone from being burned in fire, and they utterly rejected that gift and refused to accept it?
PKevman
New member
Freelight said:
Someone who believes God's Word. Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear the progression. We die, we face judgment. That's it. God's judgment is final.
it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
Jesus made it clear when He said: "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." John 11:26
Whoever LIVES and believes makes it clear that the belief must come in this life and only in this life!
No, that is not a presumption at all. That was not even hinted. You are making up a false position and trying to ascertain that I hold it. Why not actually debate something of substance rather than your own whimsical fantasies?
How about we focus our terms. God is not metaphysical freelight. He is real, He is living, personal, relational, loving, and good. He is REAL. GOD has extended His opportunity for salvation to all souls:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. John 12:46
For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13)
This is an invitation from God. Whoever rejects the invitation doesn't get saved. That is why it says WHOEVER calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved instead of EVERYONE WILL call on the name of the Lord and be saved. Universalists would love it if God's Word could somehow be twisted to say this, but it isn't.
You mean turning towards a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ? By what authority do you Freelight proclaim a message opposite to God's Word, the Bible?
Actually it is because of His love that God does NOT allow wickedness to enter His perfect and holy Heaven. All creation groans because of the pains of sin that have been placed on it. God would not have us go through it all again by allowing sin and wickedness into His Heaven. The only way sin and wickedness can be paid for is by placing your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. That is it. There are no other ways. When you tell people there are other ways besides coming to faith in Christ right now in this life, you are misleading them and you are NOT showing them love at all!
Sin leads people to an eternity apart from God. We have all earned death because we are all sinners. Romans 6:23 teaches us this. We have earned physical death and we have earned our place in the spiritual death spoken of in Revelation which is the 2nd death. A person who is saved will experience the first death (physical) but not the 2nd death (spiritual). A person who is not saved will experience both deaths.
That is true. And so is His hatred of sin. And His holiness. And His righteousness. And His justness. Shall we go on?
If God's Word teaches false doctrine then we are all in trouble Freelight. I believe God, not you. God is plain and clear in His Word.
I assume since you read Logos' point in the BR, that you also read the rebuttal that utterly destroys that position?
Can you provide a Scripture verse or verses that clearly teaches this?
Love triumphed in the sacrifice of Christ and His resurrection. Love will triumph ultimately when wickedness is purged from creation and tossed into the Lake of Fire forever and ever. Your metaphysical ramblings might get you a few pats on the back from people who are deceived, but they won't make it here. I care enough to confront it for the false teaching that it is. If you take offense to that I am sorry, but I won't stop proclaiming the truth that is found in God's Word.
- Status