BRXII Battle talk

[red77]

The fact that especially is there once again clearly upholds all of the rest of Scripture which contains the clause that one must be a believer to be saved. IF your doctrine were true, then the whole "Especially of believers" is pointless and redundant. God is ESPECIALLY the Savior of believers because they have trusted in His free gift of salvation. Your problem is that you deny other clear passages of Scripture such as Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 10:9-13 in order to CLING to a false view of a misquoted verse out of context. Sad.

What? HOW is God 'especially' the saviour of believers if he is ONLY the saviour of believers??! The two words are incompatible!! how on earth can especially be 'redundant' when the verse clearly states that God is the saviour of all men? you keep on twisting 'especially' to mean 'only' and it just doesn't work pastor.........
What is sad is the idea that a God who IS love will pointlessly torment helpless beings with no constructive purpose....
:rain:

 

[PKevman]

What? HOW is God 'especially' the saviour of believers if he is ONLY the saviour of believers??!

There you go again Red. Attaching your own meanings to things. I didn't say he was ONLY the Savior of believers. He is the Savior of the whole world because He gave His life for the whole world. OTHER SCRIPTURES show how you receive the benefits of His sacrifice. It is through faith and by the grace of God. Just because Christ DIED for the whole world, doesn't mean that the whole world would accept His sacrifice Red. Good grief, why is that so hard to understand?

The easiest way to explain is in ways I have already tried, and you rejected, but I will try again.

Say you make some cookies for your whole neighborhood and you take them around to each house. Did you make cookies for your whole neighborhood? YES! Does that mean that everyone whose house you go to will want/accept/ or even LIKE cookies? NO! Many might reject it completely. Some may not even open up their doors to you. Does that change the fact that you made the cookies for the whole neighborhood? Not in the least!

So again, God is the Savior of all men in that He has made the sacrifice for all men and made it possible for them to be saved. This DOES NOT negate the fact that they must repent and believe!

how on earth can especially be 'redundant' when the verse clearly states that God is the saviour of all men?

Because the verse does in fact go on to say "especially of believers", and doesn't just stop there. And even if it did stop there, we still have other passages in Scripture which clearly explain how a person is saved.

you keep on twisting 'especially' to mean 'only' and it just doesn't work pastor.........

No you are the one who keeps saying that Red. I haven't said it yet.

What is sad is the idea that a God who IS love will pointlessly torment helpless beings with no constructive purpose....
:rain:

And thus the heart of your issue really comes out again. You know this argument may have worked to deceive you and lead you to embrace Universalism, but it will not work with me. Because I have read and understand the Scriptures that show that our God is a righteous and HOLY God who will forever judge the wicked from out of His presence!

This life is the only chance a person gets, and they need to be told to repent and turn their hearts over to God before it is too late! Universalism is leading people to hell!

 

[red77]

There you go again Red. Attaching your own meanings to things. I didn't say he was ONLY the Savior of believers. He is the Savior of the whole world because He gave His life for the whole world. OTHER SCRIPTURES show how you receive the benefits of His sacrifice. It is through faith and by the grace of God. Just because Christ DIED for the whole world, doesn't mean that the whole world would accept His sacrifice Red. Good grief, why is that so hard to understand?

But this is exactly what you are saying! God ultimately is only the saviour of those who believe, those who don't in their lifetime are consigned to eternal torment, now is that a correct summation of your belief pastor?

It is not hard to understand that not everyone in this world during a short and finite existence will not believe in God, of course it isn't hard to understand that, it's inevitable! The difference is is that (as the disciples asked Jesus) is that all kind of things are possible with God, he already knew that things were impossible with man and yet you continue to place limits on what God can and cannot salvage out of his own creation......

The easiest way to explain is in ways I have already tried, and you rejected, but I will try again.

Say you make some cookies for your whole neighborhood and you take them around to each house. Did you make cookies for your whole neighborhood? YES! Does that mean that everyone whose house you go to will want/accept/ or even LIKE cookies? NO! Many might reject it completely. Some may not even open up their doors to you. Does that change the fact that you made the cookies for the whole neighborhood? Not in the least!

Yes, I remember your 'muffin' analogy aong the same lines, it doesn't work..... how could you expect everyone to be hungry enough to eat for a start? That alone bursts this particular bubble, even those who are may not like cookies....see how this is flawed?
Now, if everyone were to have a knowledge that there is a God who loves and wants the best for them, who created them to have life to the full and they KNOW that at some point - then do you seriously think that people - once having this knolwedge would choose to reject? Thomas didn't once he had proof, neither did Saul on his conversion, God can work things with people which neither you nor I can fathom....

So again, God is the Savior of all men in that He has made the sacrifice for all men and made it possible for them to be saved. This DOES NOT negate the fact that they must repent and believe!

one day all knees will bow and every tongue confess! It makes more sense to believe that God ultimately is the saviour of his own world than just a fraction of it which is what ET teaches, this is where the word 'especially' makes sense, God is in fact the saviour of ALL men - not just "potentially"!

Because the verse does in fact go on to say "especially of believers", and doesn't just stop there. And even if it did stop there, we still have other passages in Scripture which clearly explain how a person is saved.

Whether it stops there or not doesn't negate the verse itself, you just cannot read this verse which is crystal clear because of the confines of a doctrine which herds billiions of people to eternal agony :rain:

No you are the one who keeps saying that Red. I haven't said it yet.

You say it every time you maintain that only believers escape the lake of fire, look at the title of this Battle Royale pastor!

And thus the heart of your issue really comes out again. You know this argument may have worked to deceive you and lead you to embrace Universalism, but it will not work with me. Because I have read and understand the Scriptures that show that our God is a righteous and HOLY God who will forever judge the wicked from out of His presence!

This life is the only chance a person gets, and they need to be told to repent and turn their hearts over to God before it is too late! Universalism is leading people to hell!

I have never denied that the hideous and horror of this doctrine is something that is one of the prime elements of this debate, it could hardly fail to be, a doctrine that states that God creates a world where a fraction of it is redeemed and the majority is lost to some pointless existence of agony is hardly something that emotions can be detached from, but to say that that is the grounding of universalism or that the idea that God can restore his own creation is a strawman, and to be quite honest if a doctrine sends people to hell then there is something deeply wrong, it means that salvation is down to man to say and spread the right thing, those lucky enough to hear the right message and obey are ok, those who aren't are just 'unlucky'....:rain: How arbitrary and cold that is.....

 

[PKevman]

But this is exactly what you are saying! God ultimately is only the saviour of those who believe, those who don't in their lifetime are consigned to eternal torment, now is that a correct summation of your belief pastor?

Not exactly Red. Christ died for all men. God so loved the WORLD that he gave His only Son. God is the Savior of all men. You must accept Him as YOUR PERSONAL Lord and Savior in order to be saved. That is the summation of my position. It must be personal. It doesn't change the fact that He is the Savior of the whole world. Again, this doesn't mean that the whole world will be saved.

It is not hard to understand that not everyone in this world during a short and finite existence will not believe in God,

That is true and in line with Scripture.

of course it isn't hard to understand that, it's inevitable!

Exactly, because of the hard-heartedness of people and the deceitful nature of sin.

The difference is is that (as the disciples asked Jesus) is that all kind of things are possible with God, he already knew that things were impossible with man and yet you continue to place limits on what God can and cannot salvage out of his own creation......

You have pulled this verse out of context to make it seem as if it supports Universal Salvation when it in fact does not. Of course ALL things are possible with God! But God cannot lie! So God will not lie! God will not turn into a turd and sit on your desk staring at you. Is it possible for God to do this? Absolutely! But that doesn't mean He will. It is the ultimate straw man to start trying to prove your case by saying all things are possible with God. But God has made it clear in His Word that the wicked will punished in the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

Yes, I remember your 'muffin' analogy aong the same lines, it doesn't work..... how could you expect everyone to be hungry enough to eat for a start? That alone bursts this particular bubble, even those who are may not like cookies....see how this is flawed?

You missed the whole point entirely. The point was made to answer YOUR question about the text and how God could be the Savior of all men, especially of believers and for that to not mean that all men are saved. I answered the question with an analogy and the analogy holds true. If you made the cookies for everyone in the neighborhood, your intentions are N0T changed just because some people reject them. You still made them for the whole neighborhood, but ESPECIALLY for those who would accept them! See how easy that is to understand?

Now, if everyone were to have a knowledge that there is a God who loves and wants the best for them, who created them to have life to the full and they KNOW that at some point - then do you seriously think that people - once having this knolwedge would choose to reject?

This is where you are in direct conflict with the Word of God. Ever read Romans 1? ALL people have knowledge of God and are without excuse.

Thomas didn't once he had proof,

Not everyone is Thomas. Christ doesn't appear to all of us as the resurrected Christ. And yet Jesus Himself told Thomas it is far better to believe WITHOUT seeing! Thomas got the benefit of the doubt, but again, UNIQUE situation!

neither did Saul on his conversion,

Not everyone is Saul. Unique situation for a unique person. God doesn't call everyone in the same way that He called Saul.

God can work things with people which neither you nor I can fathom....

that is so true. I'm a living example of that Red. 11 years ago I was a drugged out lead singer of a heavy metal rock band. Now I am a pastor preaching God's Word! God does work wonders in our lives, no question.

one day all knees will bow and every tongue confess!

Amen! That is true! Still doesn't mean they will all be saved Red.

It makes more sense to believe that God ultimately is the saviour of his own world than just a fraction of it which is what ET teaches, this is where the word 'especially' makes sense, God is in fact the saviour of ALL men - not just "potentially"!

"It makes more sense" is the heart of your argument? There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end that way leads to death! (Prov. 14:12)

Whether it stops there or not doesn't negate the verse itself, you just cannot read this verse which is crystal clear because of the confines of a doctrine which herds billiions of people to eternal agony :rain:

Wrong. All people are sinners, and deserve judgment. I deserved nothing but to spend eternity apart from God in the Lake of Fire. When you get around to admitting that you might be on the road to genuine repentance. As it is, you don't see your sin as nearly bad enough to deserve the punishment that God requires, which is death!

I have never denied that the hideous and horror of this doctrine is something that is one of the prime elements of this debate, it could hardly fail to be, a doctrine that states that God creates a world where a fraction of it is redeemed and the majority is lost

Red this has already been refuted for you so many times! God didn't create the world broken and in sin my friend. He created it perfect and when He was done creating He said it was good. Sin and death WERE NOT part of God's original plan at all! MAN sinned, and is still paying the penalty for that sin, and will pay the penalty of that sin for all eternity if he will not repent and accept God's sacrifice. God created a perfect world that was GOOD.

to some pointless existence of agony is hardly something that emotions can be detached from

Of course. An emotional argument was used to deceive you Red. They played on your emotions! Eternal punishment is NOT pointless. It is the result of prideful and sinful man turning his back on his Creator!

and to be quite honest if a doctrine sends people to hell then there is something deeply wrong,

That is where you are right. Doctrines don't send people to hell. Sins do.

it means that salvation is down to man to say and spread the right thing,

No it is down to men to repent and believe.

those lucky enough to hear the right message and obey are ok, those who aren't are just 'unlucky'....:rain: How arbitrary and cold that is.....

Very. And it is not my position at all. "Luck" has nothing to do with it. Any person anywhere can seek God from their heart, and He will make Himself known!
God says:

And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Jeremiah 29:13

You have a problem with what God says, not with what I say!

 

[Redfin]

"I already answered those points..."

Fine, don't answer my points.

That been par for the course in most of our interactions. :sigh:

 

[red77]

Not exactly Red. Christ died for all men. God so loved the WORLD that he gave His only Son. God is the Savior of all men. You must accept Him as YOUR PERSONAL Lord and Savior in order to be saved. That is the summation of my position. It must be personal. It doesn't change the fact that He is the Savior of the whole world. Again, this doesn't mean that the whole world will be saved.

If the whole world isn't saved then God isn't the saviour of the whole world, he is the saviour of some, a minority but not the whole......whatever reasoning behind God not being able to reconcile his own creation be it man's 'free' will or whatever doesn't negate the verse 'especially' meaning 'only', your whole position throughout this debate has been that people must believe during their finite existence here in order to escape ET - therefore logically God is only the saviour of those who believe....

That is true and in line with Scripture.

Ok

Exactly, because of the hard-heartedness of people and the deceitful nature of sin.

Or perhaps the fallibility of flesh and blood and unsurety which is part of the human condition

You have pulled this verse out of context to make it seem as if it supports Universal Salvation when it in fact does not. Of course ALL things are possible with God! But God cannot lie! So God will not lie! God will not turn into a turd and sit on your desk staring at you. Is it possible for God to do this? Absolutely! But that doesn't mean He will. It is the ultimate straw man to start trying to prove your case by saying all things are possible with God. But God has made it clear in His Word that the wicked will punished in the Lake of Fire for all eternity.

How is it out of context? What is it that the disciples ask Jesus? Is it not "who then can be saved"? When Jesus answers that with man this is impossible but with God all kinds of things are possible - just to what do you think he is referring to?! and if it is so 'clear' that the 'wicked' (presumably anyone who hasn't believed before physical death) are tormented in the lake of fire for ever then why has this debate gone on as long as it has? Even you and Knight have not agreed on the definition of the lake of fire and there are many other interpretations of it that disagree with the both of you! you may like to make light of it but its obviously anything but as clear as you would have it be, otherwise why has Frank Earnest not got the same belief for example?

You missed the whole point entirely. The point was made to answer YOUR question about the text and how God could be the Savior of all men, especially of believers and for that to not mean that all men are saved. I answered the question with an analogy and the analogy holds true. If you made the cookies for everyone in the neighborhood, your intentions are N0T changed just because some people reject them. You still made them for the whole neighborhood, but ESPECIALLY for those who would accept them! See how easy that is to understand?

It doesn't work! The analogy would have made more sense if everything and everyone was equal, say a group of people were drowning and someone comes along with a set of liferafts for everyone, it would be pretty incredulous that not everyone would take up the offer of being saved from drowning once they knew their predicament, saying that everyone should love muffins/cookies or whatever and be conveniently hungry at exactly the same time just does not work, for a start the offer could be lengthened for those who aren't hungry enough to eat unless the chef is unreasonably surly and expects everyone to be ravenous? It doesn't make sense....

This is where you are in direct conflict with the Word of God. Ever read Romans 1? ALL people have knowledge of God and are without excuse.

People are people pastor, God knows our shortcomings and saw fit to give us the gift of life, and again - you interpret this to mean that 'without excuse' means to suffer for an eternity seemingly when it says nothing of the sort, so how I am in direct conflict is an anathema to me to be honest....

Not everyone is Thomas. Christ doesn't appear to all of us as the resurrected Christ. And yet Jesus Himself told Thomas it is far better to believe WITHOUT seeing! Thomas got the benefit of the doubt, but again, UNIQUE situation!

Of course they aren't, that doesn't mean to say that for every individual person God cannot make himself known for their particular circumstance as and when it fits

Not everyone is Saul. Unique situation for a unique person. God doesn't call everyone in the same way that He called Saul.

The self admitted 'chief of sinners'? God can save a man who purposely set out to kill christians and yet he'll despatch countless others who haven't killed to ET? Does this not say something to you yet?

that is so true. I'm a living example of that Red. 11 years ago I was a drugged out lead singer of a heavy metal rock band. Now I am a pastor preaching God's Word! God does work wonders in our lives, no question.

Well, to be honest I see nothing wrong with rock music but I don't deny that god has worked in your life

Amen! That is true! Still doesn't mean they will all be saved Red.

It doesn't mean that all won't be either - 'especially' when Tim 4:10 comes into play....

"It makes more sense" is the heart of your argument? There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end that way leads to death! (Prov. 14:12)

Context? Does it make more sense that God can restore more than a fraction of his own creation pastor, yes or no? It sure makes sense to me....

Wrong. All people are sinners, and deserve judgment. I deserved nothing but to spend eternity apart from God in the Lake of Fire. When you get around to admitting that you might be on the road to genuine repentance. As it is, you don't see your sin as nearly bad enough to deserve the punishment that God requires, which is death!

I don't deny that we all sin and deserve to be judged for what we do, and as for genuine repentance you are in no position to judge that I haven't already pastor, the fact that I can see eternal suffering as barbaric, pointless and the ultimate form of sadistic cruelty does not mean that I don't believe that there is accountability and punishment, it just happens that I believe it will be of a form that will have purpose and construct which ET does not....

Red this has already been refuted for you so many times! God didn't create the world broken and in sin my friend. He created it perfect and when He was done creating He said it was good. Sin and death WERE NOT part of God's original plan at all! MAN sinned, and is still paying the penalty for that sin, and will pay the penalty of that sin for all eternity if he will not repent and accept God's sacrifice. God created a perfect world that was GOOD.

How has it been refuted??! You believe that most of the world is lost correct? In which case it IS only a fraction or a minority of it that is restored, is that not also correct? Are you seriously suggesting that God did not know what would happen to the world when he created man? this does in no way refute that most of the world is lost, I've yet to talk to any ET'er who thinks that even half of the world can be saved!

Of course. An emotional argument was used to deceive you Red. They played on your emotions! Eternal punishment is NOT pointless. It is the result of prideful and sinful man turning his back on his Creator!

You presume too much pastor, i wasn't deceived by any emotional argument, I remember when I totally rid myself of the shackles of this horrid doctrine, it was when I realised that someone could ask me about their loved one and ask me where they were if they hadn't found God in this life - and could I tell them that there was no hope for that person and that they would suffer in agony if I was pressed on it, I knew that I couldn't and i knew inside that it was wrong, I'd already questioned several aspects of ET beforehand and that was the clincher,

and how you can say it isn't pointless is beyond me, of course it is! what does the purposeless suffering of ANY creature accomplish? Nothing! It bemuses me that you would use emotion to try and discredit universalism, in other threads you have said that one would have to have a 'heart of stone' not to find the abortion of babies immoral, yet what ind of 'heart' does it take to justify the agonising eternal torment of sentient helpless beings???!

That is where you are right. Doctrines don't send people to hell. Sins do.

But it still comes down to the luck of the draw as to who hears the right message and those who make the effort to share it, someone could technically be saved if Bob from down the road had made an effort to witness say..... but because he didn't Harry didn't hear the message and died and went to hell, see what I mean about arbitrary and cold?

No it is down to men to repent and believe.

Then why preach at all then? Why spread the message if ultimately it's down to man to find his own salvation?

Very. And it is not my position at all. "Luck" has nothing to do with it. Any person anywhere can seek God from their heart, and He will make Himself known!
God says:

Jeremiah 29:13

You have a problem with what God says, not with what I say!

No I don't, Tim 4:10......

 

[Nineveh]

Fine, don't answer my points.

That been par for the course in most of our interactions. :sigh:

This thread speaks for itself. If all you have is spam, please take it to a shorter thread. Thanks in advance.

 

[Frank Ernest]

knight's response was that it was 'clear' that the scriptures speak of the eternal torment of unbelievers if i'm not mistaken, you do not necassarily believe this to be the case currently so when you were saying that it was 'clear' you were referring to the eradication of evil - which all sides of the fence believe - correct?

Yes.

What? How can there not be some sort of 'realm' if billions of people are existing somewhere being constantly tormented? How can it be an 'assumption' to say that evil and sin aren't eradicated when they are still existing in some area or realm/ dimension or whatever somewhere..... :liberals:

God says evil will be eradicated from the earth and its inhabitants. There is no Scriptural discourse or evidence for what you are assuming.

That really is a total non answer Frank, how can a verse be refuted by another verse? Again - why does this verse say 'especially' if it fundamentally becomes 'only'? no twisting of words of definitions can get around that, please explain in detail......

It is your assumption and yours alone that comes to your conclusion. You can use all the rhetorical confusion, badgering and trickery you want and you will not force my agreement to something that is fundamentally flawed and false.

You are still unsure as to whether 'sinners' are annihalated or despatched to eternal suffering, if God has told you what is going to happen with such clarity then how come you don't know?! If it somehow isn't blatanlty obvious that for 'sinners' to still exist then so does sin and evil then what is the point of trying to use logic in this debate?

God told me what I need to know. He, quite possibly, did not tell me everything I could know. God told me evil will be eradicated from the earth and its inhabitants. He did not tell me about this eradication beyond the earth and its inhabitants. If you wish to invent some inter-dimensional world or nether region of the universe which suits your peculiar view of God as a liar, go ahead.

i don't need to 'fiddle', God's will as it's written is to have all men come to a knowledge of the truth, why should i believe that God can't restore and reconcile all that he creates, why would I want to place such restrictions on the creator of the universe in what he can and cannot salvage? Because the doctrines of men say that he can't.....? No thanks.....

You are fiddling when you assume God's desires and God's actions are one in the same. Genesis 6:7 is a categorical statement from God stating God's desire. Yet He did not destroy man from the face of the earth. Genesis 6:8 says why. Following your line of reasoning, we shouldn't be here.

God said He would reconcile all things to Himself. There will be a Final Judgment. Good will be rewarded, evil will be destroyed. At that time God will have reconciled all things to Himself, the Ultimate Good. The "doctrine of men" would be some touchy-feely idea that God will save no matter what.

Do good all your life, follow the rules, believe in Jesus, you will be saved.
Do evil all your life, break all the rules, reject Jesus, you will be saved.

Good luck!

 

[red77]

Yes.

Ok

God says evil will be eradicated from the earth and its inhabitants. There is no Scriptural discourse or evidence for what you are assuming.

There is plenty of scriptural discourse that describes the restituion of all things, it's only doctrines that claim that for evil to be erradicated by association means either having people in a bizarrely illogical place of pointless torment or annihalted that won't allow the possibility - again limiting God in what he can and cannot salvage from his own creation

It is your assumption and yours alone that comes to your conclusion. You can use all the rhetorical confusion, badgering and trickery you want and you will not force my agreement to something that is fundamentally flawed and false.

Trickery? Confusion? This verse is neither misleading or confusing, it needs no assumption if read as a clear sentence, "God is the saviour of all men, especially of those who believe", what could be clearer than that?

God told me what I need to know. He, quite possibly, did not tell me everything I could know. God told me evil will be eradicated from the earth and its inhabitants. He did not tell me about this eradication beyond the earth and its inhabitants. If you wish to invent some inter-dimensional world or nether region of the universe which suits your peculiar view of God as a liar, go ahead.

Well like I said if we can't even use basic logic for the parameters of this debate then what exactly is the point? It's obvious that for people to not be annihalated and still exist in some form or other suffering agonies of one sort or another - then that means that there is some portion of a physical or metaphysical realm that is not eradicated from sin as sinners still exist and thereofore so does sin,

You are fiddling when you assume God's desires and God's actions are one in the same. Genesis 6:7 is a categorical statement from God stating God's desire. Yet He did not destroy man from the face of the earth. Genesis 6:8 says why. Following your line of reasoning, we shouldn't be here.

God said He would reconcile all things to Himself. There will be a Final Judgment. Good will be rewarded, evil will be destroyed. At that time God will have reconciled all things to Himself, the Ultimate Good. The "doctrine of men" would be some touchy-feely idea that God will save no matter what.

If God says he will reconcile all things to himself then I take it to mean ALL, not some or a fraction, to say it's a 'touchy feely' idea that God can restore evrey last thing he has created serves only to limit God, let me ask you straight, do you think God is capable of restoring his own creation after taking into account man's will and his own fallibility -or not? I believe he can, those who believe in ET or annihalationsim are bound to say 'No' because of the constraints their own doctrinal belief place on the power of God

Do good all your life, follow the rules, believe in Jesus, you will be saved.
Do evil all your life, break all the rules, reject Jesus, you will be saved.

Good luck!

Surely you realise that no-one believes that's how it goes Frank, if you do then I suggest you reread the Battle Royale as you're arguing a complete strawman.....

 

[CabinetMaker]

There is plenty of scriptural discourse that describes the restituion of all things, it's only doctrines that claim that for evil to be erradicated by association means either having people in a bizarrely illogical place of pointless torment or annihalted that won't allow the possibility - again limiting God in what he can and cannot salvage from his own creation

God does not intend to "salvage" anybody. God has stated very clearly that Jesus is going to sort everybody into one of two groups. One group goes with Jesus to be with God forever. The other group does not, they go someplace else forever. There is no need for God to "salvage" when He is the judge.

 

[red77]

God does not intend to "salvage" anybody. God has stated very clearly that Jesus is going to sort everybody into one of two groups. One group goes with Jesus to be with God forever. The other group does not, they go someplace else forever. There is no need for God to "salvage" when He is the judge.

In that case Jesus didn't really come to save the world then, I'm sorry you still think that God cannot restore everything, we're just at another impasse....

 

[Frank Ernest]

There is plenty of scriptural discourse that describes the restituion of all things, it's only doctrines that claim that for evil to be erradicated by association means either having people in a bizarrely illogical place of pointless torment or annihalted that won't allow the possibility - again limiting God in what he can and cannot salvage from his own creation

This is what God has said. Whatever limits we might perceive on that is from what God has said. Now, if you wish to "enhance" God by assuming some wild guess about what He COULD do, go ahead.

Trickery? Confusion? This verse is neither misleading or confusing, it needs no assumption if read as a clear sentence, "God is the saviour of all men, especially of those who believe", what could be clearer than that?

If you want to hang your salvation on your misbegotten assumption about one verse from the Bible, be my guest.

Well like I said if we can't even use basic logic for the parameters of this debate then what exactly is the point?

You tell me. You're the one who decided logic isn't good enough.

It's obvious that for people to not be annihalated and still exist in some form or other suffering agonies of one sort or another - then that means that there is some portion of a physical or metaphysical realm that is not eradicated from sin as sinners still exist and thereofore so does sin,

You do an excellent job of ignoring what I'm posting, refusing to answer to it, and continuing to hammer on your unwarranted assumption.

If God says he will reconcile all things to himself then I take it to mean ALL, not some or a fraction, to say it's a 'touchy feely' idea that God can restore evrey last thing he has created serves only to limit God, let me ask you straight, do you think God is capable of restoring his own creation after taking into account man's will and his own fallibility -or not?

God says He will reconcile everything to Himself. Where does it say He will restore creation?

I believe he can, those who believe in ET or annihalationsim are bound to say 'No' because of the constraints their own doctrinal belief place on the power of God

I didn't place any limits on God's power. You keep telling me He will not do what He said He will exactly do.

Surely you realise that no-one believes that's how it goes Frank, if you do then I suggest you reread the Battle Royale as you're arguing a complete strawman.....

Skip the rhetorical BS. You don't have a case. I've shown you don't have a case. All Universalism does, following your argument, is make God a liar.

 

[red77]

This is what God has said. Whatever limits we might perceive on that is from what God has said. Now, if you wish to "enhance" God by assuming some wild guess about what He COULD do, go ahead.

I believe that God can restore all that he creates, that isn't 'enhancing' God.....I just believe that he can actually save and restore his entire creation and plenty of scripture backs that up....

If you want to hang your salvation on your misbegotten assumption about one verse from the Bible, be my guest.

It's hardly just the one verse Frank, although that seems to be providing you with a great deal of difficulty to refute just by itself...

You tell me. You're the one who decided logic isn't good enough.

I am using logic, how is it illogical to presume that if people are kept in a state of unending existence and torment that sin itself is not vanquished, please explain how this is not logical....

You do an excellent job of ignoring what I'm posting, refusing to answer to it, and continuing to hammer on your unwarranted assumption.

Come off it Frank, I've answered you in good faith every time you've posted, you might disagree with my position but I've not obfuscated anything or if I have then feel free to show me just where exactly and how i've ignored any of your questions and i'll answer.....

God says He will reconcile everything to Himself. Where does it say He will restore creation?

Well, if God reconciles everything to himself how can he lose any of what he has created?

I didn't place any limits on God's power. You keep telling me He will not do what He said He will exactly do.

Frank, by your own admission you don't know exactly what God will do, thats why you're not even sure between ET and annihaltion, I can hardly place limits on God if I am saying he can restore all of his own creation, but both ET and annihilation by default claim that God cannot.....

Skip the rhetorical BS. You don't have a case. I've shown you don't have a case. All Universalism does, following your argument, is make God a liar.

All you've shown is uncertainty within yourself in what you believe, I merely pointed out to you that if you think that universalism means that everyone can do what they want and not reap consequences then you're way wrong - which you are, the fact that I can believe that God has a purpose that transcends both ET and annihaltionaism, that God can fulfill his own will, (after all, doesnt God work all things out within the conformity of the purpose of his will?) and that God can actually be the saviour of the world can hardly make him a liar.......

 

[Frank Ernest]

I believe that God can restore all that he creates, that isn't 'enhancing' God.....I just believe that he can actually save and restore his entire creation and plenty of scripture backs that up....

Great! Implicit in that is that God's creation or parts of it are flawed by design. Not buying it.

It's hardly just the one verse Frank, although that seems to be providing you with a great deal of difficulty to refute just by itself...

I've had no problem with it. You're the one who keeps hammering away on it. Rather pointless.

I am using logic, how is it illogical to presume that if people are kept in a state of unending existence and torment that sin itself is not vanquished, please explain how this is not logical....

An unwarranted assumption is not logic. It's a flight of fantasy which is unacceptable.

Come off it Frank, I've answered you in good faith every time you've posted, you might disagree with my position but I've not obfuscated anything or if I have then feel free to show me just where exactly and how i've ignored any of your questions and i'll answer.....

You keep hammering away at your key assumptions showing no regard whatsoever for what I've posted. then you have the audacity to claim "no answer." You don't like the answer, have no rebuttal to it, so, you're left with a stubborn disregard for anything but your untenable POV.

Well, if God reconciles everything to himself how can he lose any of what he has created?

Who said He would lose anything? Another fantastic assumption.

Frank, by your own admission you don't know exactly what God will do, thats why you're not even sure between ET and annihaltion, I can hardly place limits on God if I am saying he can restore all of his own creation, but both ET and annihilation by default claim that God cannot.....

Hammer away and all you're doing now is making noise. God has said He will eliminate evil from eternity. I do not question what God has said He will do. I'm not entirely sure of how He will do it. That's my problem, not God's. Your problem is claiming what God COULD do as opposed to what He has explicity stated He WILL do.

All you've shown is uncertainty within yourself in what you believe, I merely pointed out to you that if you think that universalism means that everyone can do what they want and not reap consequences then you're way wrong - which you are, the fact that I can believe that God has a purpose that transcends both ET and annihaltionaism, that God can fulfill his own will, (after all, doesnt God work all things out within the conformity of the purpose of his will?) and that God can actually be the saviour of the world can hardly make him a liar.......

You can believe anything you want. God said He came here to save us. God said some are not going to make the cut. My ONLY problem is making the cut. I do not care that you fantasize it will be some way other than what God has explicitly stated He will do. My job is to encourage as many as will to make the cut. God did not ever say my job was to quibble with people about what He will do or could do.

 

[red77]

Great! Implicit in that is that God's creation or parts of it are flawed by design. Not buying it.

Implicit by your own assumption, the world is flawed now right? You don't blame God for that though also right? Isn't it mankind who caused the world to fall into it's current state?
therefore if you accept that it doesn't imply that there is anything wrong with the original creation, merely believing that God can restore a fallen world does not imply anything other than that....

I've had no problem with it. You're the one who keeps hammering away on it. Rather pointless.

it is pointless if you cannot provide a logical argument as to why this verse should not in fact be read literally....

An unwarranted assumption is not logic. It's a flight of fantasy which is unacceptable.

Then please explain how this is an 'unwarranted assumption' or 'flight of fancy', why is the argument illogical? if people are kept 'alive' in some realm/dimension and they still have sin then how can sin be fully vanquished? :liberals: I'm not annihalationist obviously but I can see the logic in it as all sin is just destroyed, there is no realm where it exists at all correct?

You keep hammering away at your key assumptions showing no regard whatsoever for what I've posted. then you have the audacity to claim "no answer." You don't like the answer, have no rebuttal to it, so, you're left with a stubborn disregard for anything but your untenable POV.

Frank - i've offered to address any point that you've raised if it appears that I've overlooked it or ignored it, I can do no more than that, show me what it is that i've had no rebuttal for or missed and i'll address it, I can't do any more than that... :idunno:

Who said He would lose anything? Another fantastic assumption.

If a shepherd loses one of his sheep has he kept his entire flock? If God loses just one person for an eternity away then that person is still part of God's creation, hardly a fantastic assumption, just basic logic again....

Hammer away and all you're doing now is making noise. God has said He will eliminate evil from eternity. I do not question what God has said He will do. I'm not entirely sure of how He will do it. That's my problem, not God's. Your problem is claiming what God COULD do as opposed to what He has explicity stated He WILL do.

I am in no disagreement over God eliminating evil for eternity, it's one of the very reasons why I don't believe in ET, why do I have a problem? I believe God can erradicate evil and restore his own world, he says he came to save the world and I believe it...

You can believe anything you want. God said He came here to save us. God said some are not going to make the cut. My ONLY problem is making the cut. I do not care that you fantasize it will be some way other than what God has explicitly stated He will do. My job is to encourage as many as will to make the cut. God did not ever say my job was to quibble with people about what He will do or could do.

With all respect if you were so sure that God has explicitly stated what he will do then you should know what happens to those who don't make the 'cut' as you call it, and I didn't say that God did say that your job is to quibble with others about what he can and can't do, but this is a theology debating forum after all....!

 

[Frank Ernest]

Implicit by your own assumption, the world is flawed now right? You don't blame God for that though also right? Isn't it mankind who caused the world to fall into it's current state?

It was your argument. You figure it out. (By the way, assigning your argument to me as if it were mine constitutes trickery.)

therefore if you accept that it doesn't imply that there is anything wrong with the original creation, merely believing that God can restore a fallen world does not imply anything other than that....

That is more of what God COULD do, rather than what He has said He WILL do.

it is pointless if you cannot provide a logical argument as to why this verse should not in fact be read literally....

I do read it literally. You're the one with interpretation problems.

Then please explain how this is an 'unwarranted assumption' or 'flight of fancy', why is the argument illogical? if people are kept 'alive' in some realm/dimension and they still have sin then how can sin be fully vanquished?

For the ninety-ninth time, your assumption that there is such a place is dreaming on your part.

I'm not annihalationist obviously but I can see the logic in it as all sin is just destroyed, there is no realm where it exists at all correct?

God's word says evil and sin will be eradicated from us and the earth for eternity. That is all it says.

Frank - i've offered to address any point that you've raised if it appears that I've overlooked it or ignored it, I can do no more than that, show me what it is that i've had no rebuttal for or missed and i'll address it, I can't do any more than that... :idunno:

You either can't or don't want to look at your own arguments. All you're doing is hammering on the same points over and over trying to force an agreement.

If a shepherd loses one of his sheep has he kept his entire flock? If God loses just one person for an eternity away then that person is still part of God's creation, hardly a fantastic assumption, just basic logic again....

I do not dispute that "that person" is part of God's creation. I do not dispute that the shepherd will leave the secure 99 to find that which is lost. The Bible is clear that some will be lost for eternity despite God's desire that all be saved. It is a fantastic assumption to believe that all will be saved, regardless.

I am in no disagreement over God eliminating evil for eternity, it's one of the very reasons why I don't believe in ET, why do I have a problem? I believe God can erradicate evil and restore his own world, he says he came to save the world and I believe it...

What you're telling me is salvation regardless of free will. God never said that. If He had, there would be no need for the Christ, no Final Judgment ever, and no resolution of Good vs. Evil ever.

With all respect if you were so sure that God has explicitly stated what he will do then you should know what happens to those who don't make the 'cut' as you call it, and I didn't say that God did say that your job is to quibble with others about what he can and can't do, but this is a theology debating forum after all....!

This whole thing is about your assumption of what God COULD do as opposed to what He has said He WILL do. Somehow, God's declaration of what He WILL do offends you.

 

[Balder]

And Frank, you are not offended by the idea of throwing living beings into a Lake of Fire, not to be burned up immediately, but to suffer and scream there forever?

 

[Frank Ernest]

And Frank, you are not offended by the idea of throwing living beings into a Lake of Fire, not to be burned up immediately, but to suffer and scream there forever?

I am not offended by anything God said He will do. Did He say that's what He will do?

 

[Redfin]

I am not offended by anything God said He will do. Did He say that's what He will do?

No.

That's what men (including translators of various versions of the Bible) have mis-interpreted Him as saying He would do.

That's the whole point of this thread and the BR.

:think:

 

[red77]

It was your argument. You figure it out. (By the way, assigning your argument to me as if it were mine constitutes trickery.)

Saying that God had created an imperfect world was never my argument, i merely pointed that out to you after you had seemingly assumed that it was

That is more of what God COULD do, rather than what He has said He WILL do.

Where has God said that he won't restore his own world? I see it written in plenty of sriptures that this is what God intends to do

I do read it literally. You're the one with interpretation problems.

If you read it literally then you should have no problem with accepting that God is the saviour of all men and not just believers, that's what the verse says......

For the ninety-ninth time, your assumption that there is such a place is dreaming on your part.

:idunno: then.....please explain how there can't be some place or realm/dimension or whatever if millions of people are kept in a state of eternal sufering, and how sin and evil aren't fully vanquished as a result? How is any of this not logical?

God's word says evil and sin will be eradicated from us and the earth for eternity. That is all it says.

Which I have no problem with

You either can't or don't want to look at your own arguments. All you're doing is hammering on the same points over and over trying to force an agreement.

All i've asked is for you to point to any of your own arguments which you feel that I haven't addressed, i just can't do any more than that, surely i'm being reasonable about it?

I do not dispute that "that person" is part of God's creation. I do not dispute that the shepherd will leave the secure 99 to find that which is lost. The Bible is clear that some will be lost for eternity despite God's desire that all be saved. It is a fantastic assumption to believe that all will be saved, regardless.

where is it clear exactly? And why is not just as much a fantastic assumption to believe that God can't save everyone? :think:

What you're telling me is salvation regardless of free will. God never said that. If He had, there would be no need for the Christ, no Final Judgment ever, and no resolution of Good vs. Evil ever.

That isn't what I'm teeling you although I don't believe in absolute free will anyway, what you're saying is that if Jesus's sacrifice is 100% successful it somehow renders it invalid, which makes no sense, and I have no idea why you think that the salvation of everyone would also invalidate the resolution of good and evil, you'll have to explain that one....

This whole thing is about your assumption of what God COULD do as opposed to what He has said He WILL do. Somehow, God's declaration of what He WILL do offends you.

why would it? i can believe he will restore his own creation as this is what he states as his intent