BRXII Battle talk

[CabinetMaker]

Um, actually I don't ignore the persons life before they die at all, I think that the suffering that is prevalent throughout the world matters a great deal! I just do not accept that pointless agonising torturous suffering makes any logical or moral sense, and you can't deny that in your theology those who end up in your interpretation of the LOF have any choice but to be there - therefore they are helpless and can't do anything to alleviate their suffering.....

Yes, they did have a choice. That is the point. God offered them salvation and they said no. Plain and simple. They had a choice to make before they died and they made it. Sadly, it was the wrong one and now they are trapped. I do not deny that at all. I do not see it as unjust or evil. It is the consequence of their choice.

Undoubtedly, you next argument will be something along the lines of what about the people who never heard the Gospel. Two things, the Bible says God's laws are written upon all of our hearts. Second, the Bible is largely silent on the fates of those who have never heard the Gospel. Unlike you, I am willing to trust God and His judgment to do what is right for those people.

 

[red77]

Yes, they did have a choice. That is the point. God offered them salvation and they said no. Plain and simple. They had a choice to make before they died and they made it. Sadly, it was the wrong one and now they are trapped. I do not deny that at all. I do not see it as unjust or evil. It is the consequence of their choice.

Undoubtedly, you next argument will be something along the lines of what about the people who never heard the Gospel. Two things, the Bible says God's laws are written upon all of our hearts. Second, the Bible is largely silent on the fates of those who have never heard the Gospel. Unlike you, I am willing to trust God and His judgment to do what is right for those people.

Oh come off it CM, the initial response from you was that I had made a mistake in reasoning in that those under your theology had no choice but to suffer horrendous pain forever once it was apparently too late to do anything - THAT equates to sentient beings being in a helpless state of torment!!!!!!

I very much doubt that if you were witness to such a thing as a human being being burned alive and screaming that this kind of theology would be relevant, I actually think that you would wish their suffering to end if you were present.....is that not a fair assumption?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Oh come off it CM, the initial response from you was that I had made a mistake in reasoning in that those under your theology had no choice but to suffer horrendous pain forever once it was apparently too late to do anything - THAT equates to sentient beings being in a helpless state of torment!!!!!!

Sorry, I miss-understood you. That is correct. The Bible teaches, by the very mouth of Jesus, that if you die in a state of rebellion against God you will spend forever in the lake of fire. You will be helpless to do anything once there. You are mistaken to assume that that is the act of an evil God. God has told us what to expect. He sent Jesus and Jesus told us exactly what to expect. You do not trust God so you change the Gospel to make it something easier for your conscience to live with. Your whole theology is based on what makes Red77 feel better, not on what Jesus said.

I very much doubt that if you were witness to such a thing as a human being being burned alive and screaming that this kind of theology would be relevant, I actually think that you would wish their suffering to end if you were present.....is that not a fair assumption?

Yes. So what? God has explained that those who die in rebellion against Him will be cast into the lake of fire, there to suffer for eternity. I do not understand all of God's reasons for doing what He does. Nor do I doubt that He will do exactly as He says. You do. You actively deny it because you do not trust God implicitly.

 

[freelight]

The All-glorious LOVE does not abandon us

The All-glorious LOVE does not abandon us

senseless tormenting of sentient beings IS evil! This is yet again a total strawman, no universalist argues that God advocates sin and evil but that the pointless pain and suffering of sentient beings accomplishes nothing and ironically keeps sin and evil present throughout eternity - with NO purpose whatsoever.... :doh:

Such 'belief' is truly a gross distortion of justice, furthermore an insult to divine Love. A Loving Father would never subject his offspring to such endless torments, but because of His INFINITE Love...would ever bear them up, with long suffering, patience,.... in his wisdom affording them the space and time thru His grace for their restoration, healing, rehabilation and recovery. This is the motive and Heart of a Loving FATHER. This is the goodnews,...of Gods plan and purpose to save, nurture, restore, rescue, empower, uplift, inspire souls and enable them to attain their high and glorious destiny.

ECT is utterly abominable and those embrace such a doctrine disgrace our Heavenly Fathers Name denying His Infinite Love and Immutable Character.

As shared previously this leaves 2 options open - 'extinction'(annihilation) or 'US'(universal salvation). Gods Love and Will upholds 'US' The issues of 'extinction' of existence have been touched on already,....and this would not be Gods highest Will - but,...if God has ordained a certain sovereignty of free will to his creatures where they could actually make a final choice of 'soul-death' which would be 'eternal'(they would cease to be)...this would only be after that soul has exhausted every opportunity of repentance. Only God could know if that soul makes a 'final choice' of 'death', then and only then is that soul terminated, its life-potential wholly forfeited...and it ceases to be as a functioning individual. This destiny-option is much more tenable than ECT, for at least Gods justice and mercy is extended and all space/time is afforded a soul before it does go so far to make a final choice for the rejection of life.

In surveying these destiny-potentials we see the glorious proposal of 'US' as the most satisfying in the fulfillment of divine Love and Will. All sin, deviation from goodness, depravity is atoned for and the efficacious grace of the Lord and His Christ permeate, imbibe, rejuvenate, resurrect the divine image and likeness in all souls as the currents of grace pervade time and space and the irrestible gravity of Love's pull draws everyone into the Father's embrace. The Light totally consumes the darkness in a victorious consummation of Gods Omnihood. This is the Victory that overcomes the world...the divine faith inspired in every soul blossoming into its full potential.

In all situations, environs, dimensions, existences, thru-out eternity,.....the Radiance and full optimacy of Infinite LOVE is ever present. (even in the imagined regions of so called 'hell' and the vast regions of abysmal darkness). Psalm 139:1-18



paul

 

[Frank Ernest]

Frank - no offence but the last time we spoke you weren't even sure whether ECT was correct theology, and no-one has ever argued that actions don't have consequences anyway so what argument you are trying to establish with that remark is bemusing to say the least......

So what's your argument then? That Hell cannot exist because you don't like the idea?

 

[Redfin]

So what's your argument then? That Hell cannot exist because you don't like the idea?

"Hell cannot exist..."?!?

Where did you get that from?

:think:

 

[red77]

So what's your argument then? That Hell cannot exist because you don't like the idea?

Hardly, I've argued as to why on this thread enough times as it is

 

[PKevman]

Let's reset the discussion to what is most important: (God's Word)

The Bible says:

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

If this were the only Scripture in all the Bible by which we had to base doctrine around, it would be clear enough and without question because it is so plainly stated what will happen.

It isn't!

Revelation 14:9-11

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

If THESE 2 verses were the only verses we had, we would have a mountain of evidence enough to base our views on the eternality of the Lake of Fire.

They aren't!

Jude 1:6-7

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

If these were the only verses that the Bible contained....

You get the point. I could go on and on, posting evidence after evidence. In fact if you read the Battle Royale this was done.

God's Word teaches very clearly that the wicked will suffer and that it will be eternal fire that they suffer in. Anyone who denies it is NOT getting their teaching from the Bible itself!

 

[Redfin]

Let's reset the discussion to what is most important: (God's Word)

Good point! :thumb:

Therefore, the question is whether or not your translations and interpretations accurately reflect God's Word.

God's Word teaches very clearly that the wicked will suffer and that it will be eternal fire that they suffer in.

As is obvious to all, merely citing your your preferred translations and interpretations (ad infinitum) does nothing more than beg the question.

Thanks for re-clarifying the issue.

:think:

 

[PKevman]

Good point! :thumb:

Therefore, the question is whether or not your translations and interpretations accurately reflect God's Word.



As is obvious to all, merely citing your your preferred translations and interpretations (ad infinitum) does nothing more than beg the question.

Thanks for re-clarifying the issue.

:think:

PastorKevin's posts referenced and discussed in depth the Scriptures.

Redfin's post: No Scriptures. Nothing in depth discussed=One big dodge

Redfin=Rejects things PLAINLY taught in the Word of God, but pretends to believe the Word of God in order to make his Universalist views seem better.

 

[PKevman]

Therefore, the question is whether or not your translations and interpretations accurately reflect God's Word.

So please by all means quote from the PKV translation of the New Testament. Oh, wait.... there is no such translation, whereby your argument of "YOUR translations" just went out the window.

 

[PKevman]

poof. Bye-bye Redfin's lame argument. :ha:

 

[PKevman]

Oh goodie, here comes Red77 another proud Scripture rejector!

 

[red77]

poof. Bye-bye Redfin's lame argument. :ha:

All of your scriptural interpretations have been addressed time and time again on this thread as well as explained in the battle royale itself, this just becomes a circular debate, one side shouting 'We've won' prooves nothing....

 

[PKevman]

All of your scriptural interpretations have been addressed time and time again on this thread as well as explained in the battle royale itself, this just becomes a circular debate, one side shouting 'We've won' prooves nothing....

:rotfl:

Addressing something does not show it to be wrong Red. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to respond to something. The responses are what have often lacked substance when compared to the Biblical arguments presented. That is why (at least) half of the Universalist position in BR XII was pasted. Because Universalism is a Biblically indefensible position. :wave:

 

[PKevman]

What's stunning to me is that you boneheads have helped make BR XII the most discussed Battle Talk thread in the history of TOL! WOW!

 

[PKevman]

All of your scriptural interpretations have been addressed time and time again on this thread as well as explained in the battle royale itself, this just becomes a circular debate, one side shouting 'We've won' prooves nothing....

3,777 posts later, and the Universalists are STILL dancing around and away from the Scriptures!

 

[red77]

:rotfl:

Addressing something does not show it to be wrong Red. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to respond to something. The responses are what have often lacked substance when compared to the Biblical arguments presented. That is why (at least) half of the Universalist position in BR XII was pasted. Because Universalism is a Biblically indefensible position. :wave:

Addressing something does indeed not proove it to be wrong, this is why your own claims to have refuted everything are hardly proof in themselves, and let's be honest here, Stephen already made an apology for his oversight and to claim that his argument was unbiblical is being disingenuous to the substance of his posts, there was much in there that was Biblically defensible and much of the 'pastes' were testament to that among other things, if you constantly need to bring that up (even though I seem to recall you saying that you were more than happy to carry on and accepted Stephen's mistake) then it's a bit weak....

 

[red77]

What's stunning to me is that you boneheads have helped make BR XII the most discussed Battle Talk thread in the history of TOL! WOW!

It "takes two to tango", and considering the subject matter I fail to see how it can have been that much of a surprise, debating the idea of the eternal suffering of men and women, families and loved ones is hardly 'boneheaded'.....

 

[red77]

3,777 posts later, and the Universalists are STILL dancing around and away from the Scriptures!

You do realise that this could be quoted straight back to you right? Again i say whats the point? Shouting victory means nothing....