BRXII Battle talk
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Aimiel said:
What are you on about 'true colours'???! You are like a stuck record with no substantiative argument other than soundbites and putdowns, have your eternal suffering for countless others if thats what it takes for your own personal salvation to hold true Aimiel - but thats a sad state of affairs to be in, you'll hardly be the only one who has to cling onto 'hell for heaven', whats more sickening is that you'd even be prepared to throw others into this hell but you've not answered back on that one yet, keep with the one liners if thats all you've got left as argument.....
logos_x
New member
The ship is slowly beginning to turn....
http://www.romancatholicism.org/universal-salvation.htm
After 1500 years, the Romans are finally coming around.
http://www.romancatholicism.org/universal-salvation.htm
After 1500 years, the Romans are finally coming around.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
logos_x said:
No, what I said was, I didn't see, "the children of God will draw all creation into their victory including mankind." in what you quoted. Perhaps you want to obscure the question I asked about missing the part that not all are children of God. As attested to by Rom 8:1: "Therefore now nothing of condemnation is to them that be in Christ Jesus, which wander not after the flesh." Did you want to rephrase your, "the children of God will draw all creation into their victory including mankind." to more closely resemble your quote from Scripture?
logos_x
New member
Nineveh said:
I don't know how I could make it more resemble the quote from scripture, Nin. All creation includes all mankind, doesn't it?
What you fail to see is "condemnation" is not eternal condemnation...and that in the end all things will be in Christ...not just a few. Perhaps you want to obscure the answer to your question. You wanted a scripture that said...or supported...what I said. I provided one.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
logos_x said:
Hello? Where in all you quoted testifies all men are children of God when 8:1 speaks directly against you?
No, what I failed to see was, "the children of God will draw all creation into their victory including mankind." You missed replying to the point the verse says, of not by. Big difference you don't want to see in that tiny word. "...the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God."
logos_x
New member
Nineveh said:
Nin...here is the scripture again.
For those who are led by God's Spirit are, all of them, God's sons.
You have not for the second time acquired the consciousness of being--a consciousness which fills you with terror. But you have acquired a deep inward conviction of having been adopted as sons--a conviction which prompts us to cry aloud, "Abba! our Father!" The Spirit Himself bears witness, along with our own spirits, to the fact that we are children of God; and if children, then heirs too--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ; if indeed we are sharers in Christ's sufferings, in order that we may also be sharers in His glory.
Why, what we now suffer I count as nothing in comparison with the glory which is soon to be manifested in us. For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God. For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it).
Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole of Creation is groaning together in the pains of childbirth until this hour.
And more than that, we ourselves, though we possess the Spirit as a foretaste and pledge of the glorious future, yet we ourselves inwardly sigh, as we wait and long for open recognition as sons through the deliverance of our bodies.
It is *in hope* that we have been saved. But an object of hope is such no longer when it is present to view; for when a man has a thing before his eyes, how can he be said to hope for it? But if we hope for something which we do not see, then we eagerly and patiently wait for it.
(Rom 8:14-25 WNT)
You have not for the second time acquired the consciousness of being--a consciousness which fills you with terror. But you have acquired a deep inward conviction of having been adopted as sons--a conviction which prompts us to cry aloud, "Abba! our Father!" The Spirit Himself bears witness, along with our own spirits, to the fact that we are children of God; and if children, then heirs too--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ; if indeed we are sharers in Christ's sufferings, in order that we may also be sharers in His glory.
Why, what we now suffer I count as nothing in comparison with the glory which is soon to be manifested in us. For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God. For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it).
Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole of Creation is groaning together in the pains of childbirth until this hour.
And more than that, we ourselves, though we possess the Spirit as a foretaste and pledge of the glorious future, yet we ourselves inwardly sigh, as we wait and long for open recognition as sons through the deliverance of our bodies.
It is *in hope* that we have been saved. But an object of hope is such no longer when it is present to view; for when a man has a thing before his eyes, how can he be said to hope for it? But if we hope for something which we do not see, then we eagerly and patiently wait for it.
(Rom 8:14-25 WNT)
No what YOU fail to see is I never said that all are children of God when this happens.
ALL CREATION will be set free, NIN, not just the "children of God"...and this will happen when "the glory which is soon to be manifested in us" is realized...and "at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God."
This in line with the quotes I've presented throughout:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
(Eph 1:7-12 KJVR)
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For if none of the dead are raised to life, then Christ has not risen; and if Christ has not risen, your faith is a vain thing--you are still in your sins. It follows also that those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
If in this present life we have a *hope* resting on Christ, and nothing more, we are more to be pitied than all the rest of the world.
But, in reality, Christ *has* risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep. For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead.
For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again.
But this will happen to each in the right order--Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return. Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power.
For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him.
But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:16-28 WNT)
(Eph 1:7-12 KJVR)
__________________
For if none of the dead are raised to life, then Christ has not risen; and if Christ has not risen, your faith is a vain thing--you are still in your sins. It follows also that those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
If in this present life we have a *hope* resting on Christ, and nothing more, we are more to be pitied than all the rest of the world.
But, in reality, Christ *has* risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep. For seeing that death came through man, through man comes also the resurrection of the dead.
For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again.
But this will happen to each in the right order--Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return. Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power.
For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him.
But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:16-28 WNT)
Read that last verse carefully, Nin. It is very clear...as long as you don't obscure it's meaning by an unwarranted belief in an eternal misery where grace is forever ineffectual.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
logos,
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace "
Then you want to forget In Him when you read the rest of the verse. Surely the universe will be renewed. Of that we have promise: Rev 21 We are promised new bodies 1 Cor 15, we are promised to be heirs ...God has made many promises, such as Jesus in Genesis, and details about His birth. We can surely trust His promises.
God did not promise to save those who do not wish to be with Him.
God did not say most or all people will follow Him.
But we are also promised that Jesus will wipe away every tear.
"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace "
Then you want to forget In Him when you read the rest of the verse. Surely the universe will be renewed. Of that we have promise: Rev 21 We are promised new bodies 1 Cor 15, we are promised to be heirs ...God has made many promises, such as Jesus in Genesis, and details about His birth. We can surely trust His promises.
God did not promise to save those who do not wish to be with Him.
God did not say most or all people will follow Him.
But we are also promised that Jesus will wipe away every tear.
logos_x
New member
Nineveh said:
Nin, All things...all things...ALL things, all THINGS...in Christ...all things in Heaven...all things on Earth...IN CHRIST. ALL THINGS. Death destroyed, ALL THINGS in subjection to HIM, and then HIM to GOD...so that God may be all in all.
It is clear...yet you cannot see. Why?
Nineveh
Merely Christian
logos_x said:
Subjection: Being in a position or in circumstances that place one under the power or authority of another or others.
"For “He has put all things under His feet." Sounds like it to me, since the last we hear of his enemies is "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever", sorry... "the smoke of their torment ascends [during the age of eternity]". Those that have already repented and humbled themselves before God are already in subjection (Rom 6).
PKevman
New member
And so the debate continues on, and yet the Universalists don't realize that no matter how long and no matter through how many posts they attempt to position and justify themselves and argue until their faces turn blue, their theology is off. It's amazing to me how very little of this entire thread has had to do with the Battle Royale itself in which the positions of Universalism were put under a microscope and so soundly defeated that only the Universalists would continue to attempt these arguments. Universalism is still not a Biblical doctrine in any way shape or form. Like all false teaching it relies upon misinterpretations and Scriptures taken out of context, and for its adherents it appeals to their emotions, giving them something that they think just sounds good. It's regurgitated garbage in reality.
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