BRXII Battle talk

[CabinetMaker]

God's will is for all men to be saved and find a knowledge of the truth isnt it? Did he come to save the world or just a fraction of it? Its God's will that none should perish......therefore God does NOT achieve his own will if ET is true, it really is as basic as that, unless you believe that it was God's will from the dawn of creation to lose the vast majority of his own creation to an eternal sin infested misery pit - it does not make any sense....and the Bible says that this is not what God intended or wants - but he cant accomplish his own will - because of the free will of man? Do you not think that God knows how fallible people are, were the disciples not astonished when asking who could be saved? and again - what was the answer given to them? :think:

See. You believe that God did not give men free will. Regardless of what you say, under universalism man has no ultimate choice. If man rejects God, God puts them in the lake of fire until they say, "Okay, I give up! Jesus is Lord!" Every man can be tortured to the point where they will say anything just to make it stop. You believe God tortures, sorry, panfully encourages, men into doing exactly what He wants.

I don't believe Gods will is that all men MUST be saved. He WANTS all men to be saved but God's will is to let men choose, even if that choice is not in their best interest. God has not set His will against our in the choice of salvation. He could easily do as you say, but He does not. Come willing to His table or not at all.

 

[Balder]

Cabinet Maker, when God tosses people into the Lake of Fire, does He take away their free will?

Is ET eternal because people lose all free will when they enter that condition, and therefore can never repent or will otherwise; or is it eternal because God wills them to continue in that condition, whether they want to repent of their evil and come to God or not?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Cabinet Maker, when God tosses people into the Lake of Fire, does He take away their free will?

Is ET eternal because people lose all free will when they enter that condition, and therefore can never repent or will otherwise; or is it eternal because God wills them to continue in that condition, whether they want to repent of their evil and come to God or not?

They still have free will. They no longer have a choice. God wants us to believe based on faith, faith on what He reveals to our hearts. Life trys very hard to make us doubt what God reveals to us. None the less, we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

Once we die we get to meet Jesus. Your sins are forgiven, they are not counted against you so there is only one question God will ask, what did you do with my son? You either accepted Him or you rejected Him. Note that at this point faith is no longer possible. Faith, or lack there of, is replaced with absolute knowledge. Sadly, it is not this knowledge that produces salvation, it is faith that is required.

 

[Balder]

They still have free will. They no longer have a choice. God wants us to believe based on faith, faith on what He reveals to our hearts. Life trys very hard to make us doubt what God reveals to us. None the less, we are saved by grace alone through faith alone.

Once we die we get to meet Jesus. Your sins are forgiven, they are not counted against you so there is only one question God will ask, what did you do with my son? You either accepted Him or you rejected Him. Note that at this point faith is no longer possible. Faith, or lack there of, is replaced with absolute knowledge. Sadly, it is not this knowledge that produces salvation, it is faith that is required.

Hmm. That sounds perverse.

 

[logos_x]

Hmm. That sounds perverse.

it is perverse.

We are saved by grace...through faith. Faith requires knowledge. You cannot have faith unless you know where to place faith.

In Christianity, our faith is in a completed work. Grace is established, and it resides in the finished work of Christ...in the covenant cut between the Father God and Jesus Christ for all mankind. We believe it because it is true...not to make it true.

C.M. has made faith some kind of premium rather than a privilege and a gift...a work of the grace that is in Christ's covenant. He makes it a work in it's own right, and not something that eminates from the Holy Spirit.

He does this to make salvation a work in man's control and not in God's control. That makes it error.

Unfortunately it's a common error today.

 

[CabinetMaker]

it is perverse.

We are saved by grace...through faith. Faith requires knowledge. You cannot have faith unless you know where to place faith.

In Christianity, our faith is in a completed work. Grace is established, and it resides in the finished work of Christ...in the covenant cut between the Father God and Jesus Christ for all mankind. We believe it because it is true...not to make it true.

C.M. has made faith some kind of premium rather than a privilege and a gift...a work of the grace that is in Christ's covenant. He makes it a work in it's own right, and not something that eminates from the Holy Spirit.

He does this to make salvation a work in man's control and not in God's control. That makes it error.

Unfortunately it's a common error today.

Your injecting meaning into my comments that is not there. Gods grace reveals Him to us. He gives is that which is needed to put our faith in. It is not a work, it is a response Gods calling. God is in charge. God calls us. He does not make us respond to that call. We are free to choose Jesus as our Lord, or to reject Him based on what God reveals to our hearts.

Can you produce one piece of tangible evidence that proves the Bible? The Ark? Maybe the other Ark? Anything? It does not exist. You believe in the Gospels not because they have been proven, you believe because you have faith.

Salvation is a gift offered by God. You are free to accept or reject that gift. Each of us makes that decision. Where a peson ends up is of their own choosing, not Gods. Don't balme God for the decisions of others.

I'll let you chew on that as I'm off to sell Girl Scout Cookies!

 

[red77]

See. You believe that God did not give men free will. Regardless of what you say, under universalism man has no ultimate choice. If man rejects God, God puts them in the lake of fire until they say, "Okay, I give up! Jesus is Lord!" Every man can be tortured to the point where they will say anything just to make it stop. You believe God tortures, sorry, panfully encourages, men into doing exactly what He wants.

I don't believe Gods will is that all men MUST be saved. He WANTS all men to be saved but God's will is to let men choose, even if that choice is not in their best interest. God has not set His will against our in the choice of salvation. He could easily do as you say, but He does not. Come willing to His table or not at all.

No, this isnt what I believe, i believe that everyone will WILLINGLY say this, you're right in that anyone can be tortured into saying a certian thing - but I dont believe God to be a tormentor anyway, rather I believe his answer to the disciples regarding the salvation of men if it were purely left in their own hands, with man it wouldbe impossible but with God it wouldnt be, let me ask you - do you believe that God created the entire world knowing in advance that He would have the vast majority of his own creations writhing in agony for eternity? Do you honestly think that a loving God would find that acceptable? An all powerful God is incapable of restoring his creation to himself because of the free will he gives to his own creatures? You say under universalism people have no ultimate choice but under ET people have no ultimate choice either, people are forced into a torturous state of existence which noone would obviously choose - for ever.......

 

[red77]

Your injecting meaning into my comments that is not there. Gods grace reveals Him to us. He gives is that which is needed to put our faith in. It is not a work, it is a response Gods calling. God is in charge. God calls us. He does not make us respond to that call. We are free to choose Jesus as our Lord, or to reject Him based on what God reveals to our hearts.

Can you produce one piece of tangible evidence that proves the Bible? The Ark? Maybe the other Ark? Anything? It does not exist. You believe in the Gospels not because they have been proven, you believe because you have faith.

Salvation is a gift offered by God. You are free to accept or reject that gift. Each of us makes that decision. Where a peson ends up is of their own choosing, not Gods. Don't balme God for the decisions of others.

I'll let you chew on that as I'm off to sell Girl Scout Cookies!

One thing noone has any choice on is to be born in the first place....

 

[CabinetMaker]

One thing noone has any choice on is to be born in the first place....

So what?

 

[CabinetMaker]

No, this isnt what I believe, i believe that everyone will WILLINGLY say this, you're right in that anyone can be tortured into saying a certian thing - but I dont believe God to be a tormentor anyway, rather I believe his answer to the disciples regarding the salvation of men if it were purely left in their own hands, with man it wouldbe impossible but with God it wouldnt be, let me ask you - do you believe that God created the entire world knowing in advance that He would have the vast majority of his own creations writhing in agony for eternity?

Yes. I believe that God has perfect fore knowledge of the future and would no this.

Do you honestly think that a loving God would find that acceptable?

Acceptable? No. Enevetable, yes.

An all powerful God is incapable of restoring his creation to himself because of the free will he gives to his own creatures?

Incapable? No. None the less, He has chosen that there will be a final judgement and that one possible out come of that judgement is a second death in the lake of fire. The Good News of the Gospels, at least in part, is that that possibility can be eleminated.

You say under universalism people have no ultimate choice but under ET people have no ultimate choice either, people are forced into a torturous state of existence which noone would obviously choose - for ever.......

I don't agree. People can choose to avoid and unending future in the lake of fire. That is the salvation Jesus offeres to those who accept them as their saviour. Those that reject Him are making a choice. That is where universalism and traditional christianity differ. Universalism holds that you will get a second chance. Traditional chrsitianity cannot support the claim of universal salvation from scripture. The support I have seen offered for universal salvation in this thread and in the BR typically distorts scripture to make it say something that it does not. The scripture is not written with a bunch of hidding meanings. If you think it is then you are a nostig. Scripture is meant to plain and easily understood by men from little to great intelegence.

 

[Balder]

Why inevitable? The Lake of Fire is inevitable only if God considers it acceptable -- only if, in the end, he chooses that this is the way he will "end" things for billions of sentient beings.

 

[logos_x]

Yes. I believe that God has perfect fore knowledge of the future and would no this.
Acceptable? No. Enevetable, yes.
Incapable? No. None the less, He has chosen that there will be a final judgement and that one possible out come of that judgement is a second death in the lake of fire. The Good News of the Gospels, at least in part, is that that possibility can be eleminated.

I don't agree. People can choose to avoid and unending future in the lake of fire. That is the salvation Jesus offeres to those who accept them as their saviour. Those that reject Him are making a choice. That is where universalism and traditional christianity differ. Universalism holds that you will get a second chance. Traditional chrsitianity cannot support the claim of universal salvation from scripture. The support I have seen offered for universal salvation in this thread and in the BR typically distorts scripture to make it say something that it does not. The scripture is not written with a bunch of hidding meanings. If you think it is then you are a nostig. Scripture is meant to plain and easily understood by men from little to great intelegence.

Actually...there are several places that the traditional Christian religious system and Christian Universal Salvation differ. But this is one of the most glaring differences. It is the variance of what Christ is saving us from. In universal Salvation He is saving us from sin and evil. In eternal torment He is saving us from eternal misery.

The traditional Christian religious system claims that the view that everyone will be invited in cannot be supported by scripture. Yet, clearly it CAN....they are just blinded to it because they think it represents a "second chance"...it isn't a "second chance"...it is the ONLY chance and the SAME "chance" that continues even though we die physically.

Jesus is Lord of both the living and the dead.

He has the keys of Hell and of death.

He is the resurrection and the life.

That means...obviously....that death and hell cannot overcome His power to redeem, not unless God chooses to allow death and Hell to win. I see no indication in scripture that would lead me to believe that the victory that has been acheived will be abandoned anytime in the future. The tradition hands victory over to death and makes it final...and I believe that is not scripturally supportable.

 

[Aimiel]

The traditional Christian religious system claims that the view that everyone will be invited in cannot be supported by scripture.

Amen. That 'tradition' is anti-Christian. Jesus said, "Whsoever will, let him come..." but those who are in hell cannot, because there is a great gulf, that no one can overcome.

The tradition hands victory over to death and makes it final... and I believe that is not scripturally supportable.

Amen. Jesus is The Ressurrection and The Life, and all those who've put their trust in Him will rise, those who haven't: won't. That is what The Scriptures say, anyway.

 

[logos_x]

Amen. That 'tradition' is anti-Christian. Jesus said, "Whsoever will, let him come..." but those who are in hell cannot, because there is a great gulf, that no one can overcome.Amen. Jesus is The Ressurrection and The Life, and all those who've put their trust in Him will rise, those who haven't: won't. That is what The Scriptures say, anyway.

Is it IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to overcome that gulf?

Think about your answer...

 

[Aimiel]

Of course not, but He has set the boundaries, not your logic or judgement of Him. He has set them, and described them to us. He also gave us enough information to avoid that fate, and then told us to go and tell others. He didn't say to call Him a liar and deny what He has said or change its meaning to please ourselves.

 

[logos_x]

Of course not, but He has set the boundaries, not your logic or judgement of Him. He has set them, and described them to us. He also gave us enough information to avoid that fate, and then told us to go and tell others. He didn't say to call Him a liar and deny what He has said or change its meaning to please ourselves.

Yes, He has set the limits. The problem with the doctrine of eternal torment is that it sets no limits to the works of the Devil. They endure, forever, and are never completely overcome.

 

[red77]

Yes. I believe that God has perfect fore knowledge of the future and would no this.

so God knows that his own creation could never be restored? This must also mean that the sacrifice was not for the world but only for the fraction that God knows will find the right path, why would Jesus talk about savng the world if he knew already that it was impossible? Why does God state that he wills that none should perish when by the very act of creating humans he knows that the vast vast majority will die??

Acceptable? No. Enevetable, yes.

Then that actually transalates as acceptable CM if that is the price that God decrees as the fate for most of the world, it would only be unacceptable if it were not allowed to happen.......its only inevitable when conforming to a doctrine that effectively places God's 'hands behind his back' when it comes to his own creation....
But according to you and those who believe in ET then God does in fact find this acceptable

Incapable? No. None the less, He has chosen that there will be a final judgement and that one possible out come of that judgement is a second death in the lake of fire. The Good News of the Gospels, at least in part, is that that possibility can be eleminated.

Then God is incapable by the doctrine of ET of fulfliing his own will - and yet he works all things out in accordance WITH his will so how do you explain this? The 'good news' of the gospels is that a handful of people will be spared even though God wills that all will come to a knowledge of the truth....?!

I don't agree. People can choose to avoid and unending future in the lake of fire. That is the salvation Jesus offeres to those who accept them as their saviour. Those that reject Him are making a choice. That is where universalism and traditional christianity differ. Universalism holds that you will get a second chance. Traditional chrsitianity cannot support the claim of universal salvation from scripture. The support I have seen offered for universal salvation in this thread and in the BR typically distorts scripture to make it say something that it does not. The scripture is not written with a bunch of hidding meanings. If you think it is then you are a nostig. Scripture is meant to plain and easily understood by men from little to great intelegence.

Then what do you think that Jesus was talking about when he answered the disciples regarding salvation? Why did he say what he did? There's no twisting or distorting scriptures that speak of God's will or desire on these matters, does God desire that none shall perish or not? Did Jesus say he came not to judge the world but to save it or not?
Also if scripture meant to be plain and easily understood by men then how come there are so many differing denominations and beliefs within the church? even regarding this very subject there are many different interpretations? PK holds to the LOF being literal, others believe it to be metaphorical including Knight, and do you really think revelation is easily understood? Is it all meant to be read literally and make sense?

 

[red77]

So what?

Well its not our fault that we're here is it? We dont have any say in the matter.....

 

[Aimiel]

Yes, He has set the limits. The problem with the doctrine of eternal torment is that it sets no limits to the works of the Devil. They endure, forever, and are never completely overcome.

They are destroyed, defeated and overcome, already. Those whose names are written in The Lamb's Book of Life will also gain eternal life. The problem of universalism is it doesn't make any difference between children of The Lord and children of the devil.

 

[red77]

They are destroyed, defeated and overcome, already. Those whose names are written in The Lamb's Book of Life will also gain eternal life. The problem of universalism is it doesn't make any difference between children of The Lord and children of the devil.

How? If the devils works mean influencing many away from faith and God then if ET is correct statistically he's done a pretty good job....how is that 'defeated and overcome' Aimiel?