BRXII Battle talk

[Nineveh]

The thing is Nin - as usual it is you who i disagree with and not God, noone needs to 'rework' scriptures to believe as I do, Jesus said he came to save the world, I happen to think that he meant it, you on the other hand would seem to think that for whatever reason he cant - despite all the evidence in scripture that shows that he's more than capable of fulfilling his will, I believe that God can accomplish all he desires, you do not, believe as you will Nineveh and limit God's power,love and will into the process with your restrictive doctrines, I wont thanks

You summed yourself up right here.

"...yes, that is MY interpretation and how I see it..."

 

[red77]

Logos, amazing he can hit Biblical accuracy being so far from the Truth on any given other point. Consider that. When you find yourself in theological agreement with folks who can not be discerned from the garden variety pagan, it's time to reassess.

: shrugs : I've said all I can say.

Again, this is all according to Nineveh, I'll say one thing, the fruits of the spirit are well in evidence in Dave miller's responses to your insults, if there's one person who has displayed self control and a lack of anger towards your accusations its been DM.....

 

[red77]

You summed yourself up right here.

"...yes, that is MY interpretation and how I see it..."

Stick to the topic in hand Nineveh, why dont you address the actual post itself and explain to me how you dont believe that God can accomplish his own will? Really - if all you have left is attempts to insult/demean and patronise other posters then it really shows the weakness of your own position on this, take a leaf out of dave's book and be civil! (i also need to learn more restraint so you're not alone...)

 

[Aimiel]

Again, this is all according to Nineveh, I'll say one thing, the fruits of the spirit are well in evidence in Dave miller's responses to your insults, if there's one person who has displayed self control and a lack of anger towards your accusations its been DM.....

Those are false fruits of a false spirit: the spirit of religion (legalism); which you demonstrate nearly as well.

 

[red77]

Those are false fruits of a false spirit: the spirit of religion (legalism); which you demonstrate nearly as well.

gnetlness and self control are false fruits?! C'mon Aimiel, and legalism is a pure strawman,i dont know what you're driving at with that one.....
btw - i'd be interested in your response to post #2024 when you have chance
Cheers....

 

[Aimiel]

gnetlness and self control are false fruits?!

Since you don't have your senses exercised, you simply can't discern good from evil.

C'mon Aimiel, and legalism is a pure strawman,i dont know what you're driving at with that one...

Legalism is a deadly trap of religion, and puts The Body of Christ in a silly wrestling match with Itself; it isn't pleasing to The Lord. He designed us to be one, not tens of thousands.

btw - i'd be interested in your response to post #2024 when you have chance
Cheers...

OK, here goes...

So Aimiel - you would inflict agonising pain on these people would you?

As I said, the people who go to hell deserve it. God isn't unjust, in spite of your decision that He is.

How ironic that you mention the pain and suffering of 'mankind' which would fade into comparison to those you would willingly torment, have you heard of the verse about the measure of mercy we receive in relation to the amount we show unto others? Where is yours?

I don't desire that anyone go to that torment, but those that do certainly deserve it. I know I do. Only Christ's Blood and Righteousness deserve God's Eternal Reward.

And you wonder why people tell you that ET drives people further away from God?

It didn't do that for me, or for anyone else that I know who believes The Word of God.

Yet another irony is that your witness on this thread does just that, you'd be as guilty as those who you would so willingly make to suffer!

My witness is that God is Truth, and that His Word is clear, regarding eternal torment. As I said, I am just as guilty as everyone who's ever lived, but I thank God for grace, which saves believers from hell, and has redeemed me from my sins. It doesn't save those who die in their sins, as you seem to believe.

 

[red77]

Since you don't have your senses exercised, you simply can't discern good from evil.Legalism is a deadly trap of religion, and puts The Body of Christ in a silly wrestling match with Itself; it isn't pleasing to The Lord. He designed us to be one, not tens of thousands.OK, here goes...As I said, the people who go to hell deserve it. God isn't unjust, in spite of your decision that He is.I don't desire that anyone go to that torment, but those that do certainly deserve it. I know I do. Only Christ's Blood and Righteousness deserve God's Eternal Reward.It didn't do that for me, or for anyone else that I know who believes The Word of God. My witness is that God is Truth, and that His Word is clear, regarding eternal torment. As I said, I am just as guilty as everyone who's ever lived, but I thank God for grace, which saves believers from hell, and has redeemed me from my sins. It doesn't save those who die in their sins, as you seem to believe.

gentleness and self control are evil??! :liberals:

I'm about as unlegalistic as they come Aimiel, please get a relevant argument

i asked you whether you would still be willing to inflict the torture yourself as you said in your earlier post, yes or no?

i believe God is just, I just dont believe your doctrine that restricts his power/love and mercy...

 

[Aimiel]

gentleness and self control are evil??!

You've never dealt with anyone who is a convicted criminal (knowingly), have you? Most serial killers are what is described as, "the nicest guy in the world, he wouldn't hurt a fly." Socio-paths is what they're termed. Jesus called the religious men He met vipers. In my experience, religion is the most deadly spirit, because it not only decieves but the one who is deceived by it believes that he is the only one who is right. As I said, you don't discern between good and evil, because your senses aren't exercised. If you'd ever been 'burned' by someone exhibiting Jailhouse Religion, you'd play a different tune.

i believe God is just, I just dont believe your doctrine that restricts his power/love and mercy...

I don't restrict Him at all. He would be restricted if He were to be subject to your scrutiny (which by the way He isn't) and had to save every single soul, as you 'force' Him to with your imagined theology of universalism. I know that God is Just, for He has declared so in His Word, and demonstrated His Justice, many times over. He also has The Power to destroy both body and soul in hell, as Jesus warned; even if you don't believe it. Too many things in The Word of God show His Anger at sin and His severe punishment of it. He didn't do that as a game. It is designed to warn men and to steer them to The Only One Who can save them from hell: Jesus.

 

[logos_x]

Logos, amazing he can hit Biblical accuracy being so far from the Truth on any given other point. Consider that. When you find yourself in theological agreement with folks who can not be discerned from the garden variety pagan, it's time to reassess.

: shrugs : I've said all I can say.

Nin, I'm not sure why you think Dave's position cannot be discerned as different from the "garden variety pagan". He says salvation is in Christ...and in Christ alone.

I see nothing wrong with telling your "garden variety pagan" that this is true. That pagans might see truths and understand what they are, they might not know who Jesus is....other that what your "garden variety Christian" might have said and put forward, which might not be entirely accurate.

Another thing. When you find yourself in theological agreement with your "garden variety Pharisee"...it's time to reassess.

 

[Aimiel]

Your garden variety demon might tell you the same thing Dave does, but the lies they both tell, when mixed with a sprinkling of truth makes the lies that much easier to swallow.

 

[logos_x]

You've never dealt with anyone who is a convicted criminal (knowingly), have you? Most serial killers are what is described as, "the nicest guy in the world, he wouldn't hurt a fly." Socio-paths is what they're termed. Jesus called the religious men He met vipers. In my experience, religion is the most deadly spirit, because it not only decieves but the one who is deceived by it believes that he is the only one who is right. As I said, you don't discern between good and evil, because your senses aren't exercised. If you'd ever been 'burned' by someone exhibiting Jailhouse Religion, you'd play a different tune.I don't restrict Him at all. He would be restricted if He were to be subject to your scrutiny (which by the way He isn't) and had to save every single soul, as you 'force' Him to with your imagined theology of universalism. I know that God is Just, for He has declared so in His Word, and demonstrated His Justice, many times over. He also has The Power to destroy both body and soul in hell, as Jesus warned; even if you don't believe it. Too many things in The Word of God show His Anger at sin and His severe punishment of it. He didn't do that as a game. It is designed to warn men and to steer them to The Only One Who can save them from hell: Jesus.

Aimiel,

I find it interesting that you have chosen to defend God on the grounds that He has chosen to have the majority of mankind burn for all eternity...as though that is in fact what He has chosen to have done. I think it would be a wise course of action to actually prove eternal torment is God's intention before you try to defend it as "just" because God has chosen to do it.

That's what is so bothersom about the plausibilty structure that eternal torment imposes upon God, and upon our theology. People are compelled to accept it as true without it being proven as Biblically sound. Then people who question it's implications on moral or even criminal justice and penological grounds are berated for questioning the accuracy of the belief structure in question.

It seems as though you can question any doctrine as true except the doctrine of eternal torment. Bring it under scrutiny, and discover that the majorty of the Greek speaking Christians did not believe in eternal torment or annihilation...then look at why, and find that the words we have made to mean "eternal" are time-words that are not defined as "eternity" except by those that believe in eternal torment, and even if viewed as "eternity"...or actually an unending aion..it is a word of QUALITY, and not a mathematical QUANTITY. It is to be viewed as the source of the life or the chastisment, not the duration.

There are sufficient enough reasons to doubt that the doctrine of eternal torment paints an accurate picture. I wonder why people feel so compelled to insist that the view is really true and be so dogmatic about it. It's similar to an Open Veiwer arguing with a Calvinist.

I quess there is no end to it so long as the Calvinist insists he is right. Same is true of believers in endless misery.

 

[logos_x]

Your garden variety demon might tell you the same thing Dave does, but the lies they both tell, when mixed with a sprinkling of truth makes the lies that much easier to swallow.

Or, your garden variety demon might want people to believe in endless misery and God's inability to save to the uttermost the lost.

After all...it would be just like God to plant a garden in Eden, put our first parents in there to care for it, and tell them not to eat of ANY tree in the garden, wouldn't it?

This is Satan's M.O. in lying about God. "He's holding something back from you, let's discover what that is". Things have gotten so bad that we believe God has made things so that eternal misery is inevitable.

 

[Aimiel]

I find it interesting that you have chosen to defend God on the grounds that He has chosen to have the majority of mankind burn for all eternity...as though that is in fact what He has chosen to have done. I think it would be a wise course of action to actually prove eternal torment is God's intention before you try to defend it as "just" because God has chosen to do it.

There are sufficient enough reasons to doubt that the doctrine of eternal torment paints an accurate picture. I wonder why people feel so compelled to insist that the view is really true and be so dogmatic about it.

It's so clear, that I don't even see the need to defend it, per se, just from a mental 'review' of what I've read of The Word of God. I've read the entire Bible through, several times, and simply can't see any evidence for your stance, much less any need to defend what The Word of God makes clear. I have read The Word of God without being told to and without being told what it meant or what to think while reading It. I pray that God might use the pages that He had printed for me so that He could use them to speak to me personally to not only hear from Him but to cling to what He has said as far more important than everything everyone will ever have to say in 'comment' on what He has said. His Word is more precious than my very life, and I take That Word very seriously. Re-assigning meanings to words or following heretical theologies doesn't even come close to turning me for one nanosecond. My face is set like flint on Heaven, and I won't be convinced to turn aside; especially by heresy.

 

[logos_x]

It's so clear, that I don't even see the need to defend it, per se, just from a mental 'review' of what I've read of The Word of God. I've read the entire Bible through, several times, and simply can't see any evidence for your stance, much less any need to defend what The Word of God makes clear. I have read The Word of God without being told to and without being told what it meant or what to think while reading It. I pray that God might use the pages that He had printed for me so that He could use them to speak to me personally to not only hear from Him but to cling to what He has said as far more important than everything everyone will ever have to say in 'comment' on what He has said. His Word is more precious than my very life, and I take That Word very seriously. Re-assigning meanings to words or following heretical theologies doesn't even come close to turning me for one nanosecond. My face is set like flint on Heaven, and I won't be convinced to turn aside; especially by heresy.

What you have read, Amiel, is a translation of the word of God. The question is...is it an accurate translation.

 

[Aimiel]

Or, your garden variety demon might want people to believe in endless misery and God's inability to save to the uttermost the lost.

That's just what I was describing. You illustrated my point for me. :comeout:

 

[logos_x]

That's just what I was describing. You illustrated my point for me. :comeout:

Yes, I guess I have. :comeout:

 

[Aimiel]

What you have read, Amiel, is a translation of the word of God. The question is...is it an accurate translation.

For almost four hundred years men have researched that same question; better men than you or I, and most have concluded the same thing; that the KJV is one of the truest English translations available, faithful to the original manuscripts.

Again, the doctrine of eternal torment for the damned doesn't come down to the definition of one word (although your position would collapse completely without your re-definition, which is why you push that re-definition so hard) but it comes across from most of the rest of The Bible, clearly and without any doubt whatsoever. The failure of anyone to see that always boggles my mind, but I guess deception comes in different forms.

 

[logos_x]

For almost four hundred years men have researched that same question; better men than you or I, and most have concluded the same thing; that the KJV is one of the truest English translations available, faithful to the original manuscripts.

Again, the doctrine of eternal torment for the damned doesn't come down to the definition of one word (although your position would collapse completely without your re-definition, which is why you push that re-definition so hard) but it comes across from most of the rest of The Bible, clearly and without any doubt whatsoever. The failure of anyone to see that always boggles my mind, but I guess deception comes in different forms.

It isn't re-defined by Universal salvation. It is re-defined by those that believe in eternal torment, Aimiel.

So...all you can really say truthfully is... "IF the translation I have been reading is accurate...then eternal torment is true."

If it is true that the aion is never ending that related to chastisment...then God cannot redeem everyone, the majority of mankind will suffer burning anguish for all future time, and Paul's belief that "all things will be brought into subjection" is a bunny trail.

There are an endless number of "IF"s that can be strung out...and many have been in this thread.

The Bible simply says "aion" and "aionion"....NEVER using a word about "endless".

But....the translation you are using says "eternal" for these words in the places that scripture talks about these ages of chastisement. THAT is redefining aion and aionion. It isn't the other way around.

 

[Aimiel]

Yes, I guess I have. :comeout:

Let me see if I can get this thing going again...

 

[Aimiel]

It isn't re-defined by Universal salvation. It is re-defined by those that believe in eternal torment, Aimiel.

So...all you can really say truthfully is... "IF the translation I have been reading is accurate...then eternal torment is true."

If it is true that the aion is never ending that related to chastisment...then God cannot redeem everyone, the majority of mankind will suffer burning anguish for all future time, and Paul's belief that "all things will be brought into subjection" is a bunny trail.

There are an endless number of "IF"s that can be strung out...and many have been in this thread.

The Bible simply says "aion" and "aionion"....NEVER using a word about "endless".

But....the translation you are using says "eternal" for these words in the places that scripture talks about these ages of chastisement. THAT is redefining aion and aionion. It isn't the other way around.

Obviously you read posts on TOL with as much comprehension as you do The Bible. I said that the definition of one word isn't important, and mentioned that the preponderance of the evidence in scripture makes your 'definition' moot.