Born Dead - Spiritual Stillbirth

[themuzicman]

Dead people are lifeless. They cannot choose to do anything in this world. According to God's truth every person is a spiritual stillbirth. They are born dead in sins and transgressions (Eph2:1,3). Human nature is under God's wrath (Eph2:3). Everyone gratifies the cravings of their corrupted nature. Everyone follows the desires and thoughts of their sinful nature.
Everyone follows the ways of this world and the Devil (Eph2:2).
Such spiritually dead people cannot savingly choose Christ or please God. Their will is not free to choose Christ and so be born again. No! Logically not! First God makes dead sinners alive(Eph2:5). Then that new life through Christ(Eph2:5) demonstrates faith in Christ.
New birth precedes faith.

Your out of context scripture smash is interesting, but contradicts one verse, taken in context:

Romans 7: 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Here's your errors:

1) Ephesians 2 never says that we are "spiritually" dead.
2) It does it say anything about when we were born. It says that the Ephesians were once in this state.

So, your impositions on this text change what Paul is actually saying.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Apostle Paul's order of events:

KJV Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Seems clear from the apostle: alive first then died.

To say that his order of events is, as you said, born dead then made alive, there is no point in time where he was first alive then died as per Rom 9:7.

EXACTLY!

 

[Samie]

Apostle Paul's order of events:

KJV Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Seems clear from the apostle: alive first then died.

To say that his order of events is, as you said, born dead then made alive, there is no point in time where he was first alive then died as per Rom 7:9.

EXACTLY!

So we are on the same boat, after all: Alive first, then died and made alive.

We were NOT born dead in sin. Instead, we were born alive in Christ.

 

[Samie]

Hi Jerry,

When one is NOT saved, he is APART from Christ. And when one is APART from Him, Christ said he can do NOTHING.

But here you are saying those not saved (those APART from Christ) can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Is there no contradiction in what you are saying vis-a-vis what Christ Himself said? Please explain. Thanks.

Of course those who are spiritually dead can believe since the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit. And once they believe they are given life as a result of believing:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

The Calvinists teach that one must be given life prior to believing to enable them to believe but the Scriptures teach that life comes as a RESULT of believing.

The Calvinists believe that the Holy Spirit which comes with the gospel is impotent to bring life to those who are dead in sin.

You did not touch Christ's statement "Apart from Me you can do nothing".

I can only say: since people are able to believe then they can do SOMETHING, and hence are NOT apart from Christ, our STRENGTH to do all things (Phil 4:13).

Having been EMPOWERED through Christ, people are NOW COMMANDED.

This is why God NOW COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). The same call to repentance Jesus made in the gospel that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same call to repentance God issued in the OT (Ezek 18:30).

Repentance is a change of mind for that which is good. Instead of doing evil, do good. IOW, overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), and believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief. Christ assures that overcomers will He NOT blot out from the book of life but will be seated with Him in His throne as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). All NOT blotted out will be ushered into the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27). All blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

By the way, Samie is not a Calvinist, neither an Arminian.

Arminianism indirectly teaches that people are born in sin, born apart from Christ (Article 1 of the Five Articles of Remonstrance). Calvinism teaches that, too, but differing from Arminianism in that Calvinism also teaches total depravity. Arminians don't. Arminians teach that even if people are born in sin, born apart from Christ, they still can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Samie believes that people are born in Christ, as a result of God's saving Adam the same day he fell into sin. That gracious saving act was the IMPLEMENTATION of the plan of redemption God devised before the beginning of time, before the foundation of the world, revealed and manifested in the life, death, resurrection and heavenly ministry of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Tim 1:8-10).

God saved Adam through Christ (Acts 4:12) and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8). With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ!

 

[BoyStan]

What is the meaning in context of the word 'dead' in Eph2:1? The Ephesian state described Eph2:2-4 is the outworking of their being dead to God or spiritually dead. How do you interpret 'dead' ?

 

[BoyStan]

Samie, What does 'alive' mean in Rom 7:9 ? Does 'alive' in Eph 2:5 have the same meaning or a different meaning?

 

[BoyStan]

Please tell me what 'dead' means in Eph2:1 ? What does it mean'Like the rest,we were by nature objects of wrath'(Eph2:3). The key word here is 'nature'. Do you think that is human nature ? This wrath echoes the fall of Adam and all humanity in him. God says nothing here about stillborn babies. The apostle is talking to and about the Ephesian saints. God is sovereign and he will do whatever is his will with stillborn babies.

 

[BoyStan]

Are you saying that the word 'alive' in Eph2:5 has the same meaning as 'Alive' in Rom7:9 ?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You did not touch Christ's statement "Apart from Me you can do nothing".

There the Lord Jesus is telling those who are are already clean through the word and are described as branches "in Him." This is speaking of those already saved and in order to "bear fruit" they must abide in Him. This is speaking about believers "serving" the Lord and has nothing to do with those who are dead in sin being able to believe the gospel.

If those who are dead in sin can do nothing then how do explain the fact that they can resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51)?

How do you explain the fact that Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law (Ro.2:14)?

Again, the idea that a person must first be given life through regeneration in order to believe is contradicted by the Apostle John, who states in no uncertain terms that those dead in sin receive life as a result of believing:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name"(Jn.20:31).

According to your ideas a person is given life prior to believing despite the fact that life comes as a result of believing.

 

[Samie]

Hi, Jerry;

Two statements:

1. If one is in Christ, he is saved, is a branch of the Vine, can bear fruit and can do SOMETHING.

2. If one is NOT in Christ, he is NOT saved, is NOT a branch of the Vine, can NOT bear fruit, and can do NOTHING.

Which of the two statements do you disagree with?

If you agree with both statements, why ask those whom you consider NOT in Christ to do SOMETHING - believe - so they can be in Christ?

The life that John speaks of in John 20:31 which results from believing is eternal life, based on Jesus' statement John recorded in John 3:16. And eternal life is yet to be received in the future, in that world yet to come:

KJV Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

 

[Zeke]

Thanks for the response Zeke. But it has nothing to do with spiritual birth and the text Eph 2:1-5.
I am completely bamboozled at what might be the connection

Sure it does, the legally named child is based on you're afterbirth that came out of the womb and is the one created by the birth certificate.

 

[BoyStan]

I am still no wiser !

 

[Zeke]

I am still no wiser !

Well this ain't Kansas Dorthy! The unalienable birth right of the living child is stolen through fraud by putting that living child/soul under a covenant of death, which is why they take a print of the soul/foot of the newly born which is sold into slavery to this worlds fictional kingdom, you have an ID that proves you are owned by the Babylonian compact that allows you to buy and sell under that legal name! get it? few do.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The life that John speaks of in John 20:31 which results from believing is eternal life, based on Jesus' statement John recorded in John 3:16. And eternal life is yet to be received in the future, in that world yet to come:

The eternal life of which John speaks is one which is already possessed by the Christian:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You did not touch Christ's statement "Apart from Me you can do nothing".

There the Lord Jesus is telling those who are are already clean through the word and are described as branches "in Him." This is speaking of those already saved and in order to "bear fruit" they must abide in Him. This is speaking about believers "serving" the Lord and has nothing to do with those who are dead in sin being able to believe the gospel.

If those who are dead in sin can do nothing then how do explain the fact that they can resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51)?

How do you explain the fact that Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law (Ro.2:14)?

Again, the idea that a person must first be given life through regeneration in order to believe is contradicted by the Apostle John, who states in no uncertain terms that those dead in sin receive life as a result of believing:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name"(Jn.20:31).

According to your ideas a person is given life prior to believing despite the fact that life comes as a result of believing.

 

[Samie]

There the Lord Jesus is telling those who are are already clean through the word and are described as branches "in Him." This is speaking of those already saved and in order to "bear fruit" they must abide in Him. This is speaking about believers "serving" the Lord and has nothing to do with those who are dead in sin being able to believe the gospel.

If those who are dead in sin can do nothing then how do explain the fact that they can resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51)?

They can do SOMETHING because they are NOT apart from Christ. That's why God NOW COMMANDS people to repent (Acts 17:30) because they are capable of repenting.

How do you explain the fact that Gentiles do by nature the things contained in the law (Ro.2:14)?

Same as explained above.

Again, the idea that a person must first be given life through regeneration in order to believe is contradicted by the Apostle John, who states in no uncertain terms that those dead in sin receive life as a result of believing:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name"(Jn.20:31).

According to your ideas a person is given life prior to believing despite the fact that life comes as a result of believing.

Jesus is our life (Col 3:4), and when NOT apart from Him people can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING. They can believe, repent, etc.

But when it comes to eternal life resulting from believing (and believing is doing SOMETHING, hence POSSIBLE only when one is NOT apart from Christ), as He Himself said in John 3:16 and referred to by John in John 20:31, Jesus said that eternal life He is giving to people is YET TO BE received in the world to come:

KJV Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Please read John's words in the light of Jesus' own words; NOT the other way around.

That's proper exegesis, I guess, rather than insist people receive eternal life right away upon believing based on John 20:31, when Christ Himself said eternal life is yet to be received in the world to come.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's proper exegesis, I guess, rather than insist people receive eternal life right away upon believing based on John 20:31, when Christ Himself said eternal life is yet to be received in the world to come.

Herearethe Lord Jesus own words in regard to when a person receives eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24; NIV).

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

And thisverse also proves that a person receives this life as a result of believing and not prior to believing:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).

It is not true that life or regeneration precedes faith.

 

[Samie]

Hi Jerry:

You used this verse to prove people receive eternal life now:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24; NIV).

The verse does not say as to when man receives eternal life. It simply says man has eternal life.

On the other hand, I have for a number of times repeated, like a broken record, this statement of our Lord as to when man receives eternal life:

KJV Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

My position: Jesus says people has eternal life as per John 5:24 but will receive it in the world to come as He said in Mark 10:30.

Your position: Jesus says in John 5:24 people receive eternal life now but He turns around and says in Mark 10:30 people will receive eternal life in the world to come.

Your position makes Christ contradict His own statement.

 

[BoyStan]

Everyone is 'born in sin'. This is better than saying everyone is 'born a sinner'. This makes better sense of Eph2:1-3. Thanks to all who posted in this thread and helped to clarify my perspective.

 

[Samie]

Everyone is 'born in sin'. This is better than saying everyone is 'born a sinner'. This makes better sense of Eph2:1-3. Thanks to all who posted in this thread and helped to clarify my perspective.

Paul does not say in Ephesians 2:1-3 that people are born in sin. He was simply saying they were dead in sin. How? He explained in Romans 7:9.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

He was alive, then died. Hence alive first, NOT stillbirth.