I/others have pointed that out to him; but, as usual, Jer. is always right.
ECT Born Again
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
I/others have pointed that out to him; but, as usual, Jer. is always right.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, He first began to speak about "individuals" being "born again" and then He switches to the plural because He then uses the nation of Israel as a "type" to illustrate the individual's "born again" experience.
So are you saying that the Lord really didn't mean that individual people must be "born again" in order to see the kingdom when He said the following?:
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3).
If He was saying that the "nation" of Israel" must be born again to see the kingdom then it would be very strange that He would use the words "a man" to symbolize the nation. The more logical option is that he used the words "a man" it would be understood that He was speaking about both men and women.
Besides that, the Apostle Paul tells those in the Body of Christ that once living believers will be caught up to meet Him in the air then they will forever be with Him:
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:17).
So when the Lord Jesus returns to set up His earthly kingdom those in the Body will be with Him. And since only those who are "born again" can enter that kingdom (Jn.3:3,5) then common sense dictates that those in the Body of Christ are born again.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The due time for the Jews is when the nation of Israel will be regenerated (Exz.37:1-10). However, the remnant spoken of at Romans 11:5 were also born out of due time because just like Paul they were made members of the Body of Christ:
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-15).
Here Paul speaks of two different groups being reconciled unto God in one Body and the two groups are the believing remnant and the believing Jews.
If you do not agree then tell me the identity of the two groups.
Right Divider
Body part
So you refuse to understand figures of speech and insist that women need not be born again. Got it.
Right Divider
Body part
There can be no doubt whatsoever that one must translation hop to go fishing for the great truths that live in the "deep waters" of multiple versions.
Right Divider
Body part
- Some believe that this "baptism" is a drowning.
- Jerry will make this "newness of life" into "rebirth" and then into "born again".... we can't win.
Yes, RD, its the mantle of bible correctors/mystics/agnostics, i.e., there has to be a version out there, that agrees with me, agrees with what I am trying to prove, agrees with my doctrine!!! If not, I will "the Greek" 'em to death, "Geek 'em" to death, correct them all, and impress, woo the audience!!!!!
Well, if these con artists are so egeekated, so as to correct the LORD God, an uncorrectable LORD God, and his book, they have way too much egeekashun.
Hmmmphhhh!
And he will stump us again, with his, "Don't you believe what the Lord says here........................?......Don't you believe the bible?.............You cannot answer.....You ignore.........................blah blah blah.."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you say that when the Lord Jesus spoke of "a man" being "born again" he was actually referring to the "nation of Israel" being born again. What about Peter's words here:
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).
The Greek word translated "being born again" is in the "present" tense so are you arguing that at the time when Peter wrote those words the nation of Israel had been regenerated?
I say that Peter was referring to "individuals" being born again by believing the gospel.
Do you still want to argue that "individuals" were not being "born again" but only the "nation of Israel"?
Can you not understand that "individual" Jews who lived under the law were being made alive spiritually when they "believed" the words of the Lord Jesus which brought spiritual life even though He told them the following:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
If you cannot understand His words there perhaps you can understand His words here which He spoke to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).
If those words are also above your understanding perhaps you can understand His following words which were also written to the Jews who lived under the law:
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).
If you cannot understand what He said there perhaps you can understand what is written here:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
If you still cannot understand that "believing" was the only requirement for the Jews who lived under the law in order to be "born again" then I can only conclude that you unable to understand spiritual things.
Right Divider
Body part
I didn't actually say that, but I did say that Jesus was using a GENERALIZATION.
The CONTEXT of His ministry AT THAT TIME was to Israel, so I'm wondering why you try so hard to make it otherwise.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So what do you think Peter meant at 1 Peter 1:23? Was he referring to "individuals" or to the "nation"?
Right Divider
Body part
I know that Peter was writing to the twelve tribes just like James.
1Pe 1:1 KJV Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Jas 1:1 KJV James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
BOTH writing to the twelve tribes scattered abroad.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Were the words of Peter at 1 Peter 1:23 speaking about "individual" Jews or not?
Hi Jerry and how can you AVOID the context of Rom 11:5 , as verses 1-8 , which is Israel !!
It seems to many that verse 8 , that God gave Israel the spirit of STUPOR , EYES to see not and EARS to HEAR NOT and that seems your position !!
You quotation of Eph 2:13-15 it the SAME position to me as the Rom 11:5 quotation !!
You quote Paul and are not EVEN Pauline nor Acts 9 !!
dan p
Right Divider
Body part
What is your point? He was not writing to the body of Christ, but to members of the nation of Israel.
And you have him as in the B O C there are NO Jews or Greeks as written in Gal 3:28 !!
dan p
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
My point is that the Lord Jesus said that "individuals" cannot enter the kingdom unless they are "born again."
The Apostle Paul tells those in the Body of Christ that once living believers will be caught up to meet Him in the air then they will forever be with Him:
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:17).
So when the Lord Jesus returns to set up His earthly kingdom those in the Body will be with Him. And since only those who are "born again" can enter that kingdom (Jn.3:3,5) then common sense dictates that those in the Body of Christ are born again.
We also know that Paul does speak of a "rebirth" which resulted in salvation for members of the Body of Christ:
"But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:4-5).
For quite some time I called myself a Christian but I had many doubts about some things which are revealed in the Bible. But one day, after hearing the gospel of grace explained clearly to me, all my doubts vanished and I knew "that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true."
At that moment I knew that I had been born again, born of the Spirit, because I had experienced it.
Do you deny that people with true faith pass from being what Paul calls a "natural man," who cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor.2:14) unto a state where they have received the spirit which is of God in order for them to know the things which are freely given to us of God (1 Cor.2:16)?
Paul calls that process a "rebirth," and those who have experienced it have been "born of God."
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Right Divider
Body part
The Lord Jesus was talking about individual Israelite's entering their kingdom. That is the context of His earthly ministry as the minister of the circumcision [Romans 15:8].
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Apostle Paul tells those in the Body of Christ that once living believers will be caught up to meet Him in the air then they will forever be with Him:
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:17).
So when the Lord Jesus returns to set up His earthly kingdom those in the Body will be with Him. And since only those who are "born again" can enter that kingdom (Jn.3:3,5) then common sense dictates that those in the Body of Christ are born again.
We also know that Paul does speak of a "rebirth" which resulted in salvation for members of the Body of Christ:
"But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:4-5).
Have you not been able to understand what the word "rebirth" means?
Hint:
A "rebirth" can be understood as being "born again." But I guess you don't know to what the prefix "re" makes reference.