Another stumper, which he spams to everyone, a flavor of "Don't you believe the bible/what the Lord says here..........................?"
ECT Born Again
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
Another stumper, which he spams to everyone, a flavor of "Don't you believe the bible/what the Lord says here..........................?"
musterion
Well-known member
| 5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. |
You need to focus on the when more than the what.
Ditch the NIV.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Isn't what this forum is for? To express our opinion about the meaning of different verses and how they fit into the overall scheme of the Bible?
When you have no answer to verses which contradict your ideas you won't even consider the possibility your view is in error but instead attack the messenger because you have no answer to the message. That MO is very undignified and if anything Christians should act in a dignified manner at all times, especially toward each other while "endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph.4:3).
You have a sharp mind and a sharp wit and at times you are very funny but that acts gets old after a while and you could make a real contribution to these discussions if you would actually behave in a dignified way. For instance, if you really want to have an honest discussion on the subject of this thread tell us why you think that when Paul uses the word "rebirth" at Titus 3:5 that he is not referring to being "born again."
You must have a reason why you think that is true so share that reason with us so we can consider if your reason is actually viable or not.
Thanks!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You didn't answer my question to your assertion that being saved to the Jew meant something different than it means to those in the Body of Christ. And I quoted the following words of Peter and asked you what meaning you
would place on the word "salvation":
"and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls" (1 Pet.1:8-9; NASB).
Since you failed to answer why the word "salvation" in that passage is different from the salvation which is experienced by those in the Body of Christ now you say that it is about the "timing" of their salvation. Please consider the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the Greek "present" tense.
In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:
"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."
Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."
So once a person believes he receives eternal life. And those who received John's first epistle had already received eternal life, and that life is in the Lord Jesus Christ:
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).
That answers your question in regard to the "timing" of salvation in regard to the Jews who lived under the law.
As I conveyed to you, others; I generally do not engage in discussions, disputes, persuasion, with bible correctors/agnostics/mystics, such as yourself, only bible believers, nor with atheists, for your/their presupposition does not allow for an Isaiah 1:18 KJV reasoned debate;it is akin to engaging in attempting to provide evidence, convince someone that grass is green, when that person does not believe grass exists. I'm not a smart man, but I'm not one of "The Three Stooges," or Forest Gump.
Carry on....John Forest Spiros W
Right Divider
Body part
[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION]
Will you ever provide a legitimate answer as to why Paul would wait until one of his LAST epistles to write about what you say is a VITAL doctrine for the body of Christ?
Will you ever provide a legitimate answer as to why Paul would wait until one of his LAST epistles to write about what you say is a VITAL doctrine for the body of Christ?
musterion
Well-known member
Because it's spiritually implied in nonliteral allegorical fashion throughout his epistles. :dizzy:
Right Divider
Body part
I would think that a vital doctrine for the body of Christ would be clearly defined in a book like Romans that is one of his longest and most complete doctrinal dissertations.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In his earlier epistles he did write about those in the Body of Christ being "begotten" by the gospel:
"for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel" (1 Cor.4:15).
Those who originally read what Paul wrote there would understand that he was writing of a "birth" that resulted when they believed the gospel. And surely those who received this epistle had previously been informed about the Lord Jesus' teaching concerning the new birth which He referred to as being 'born again" so they would know exactly of what kind of birth of Paul was speaking about.
What do you think that Paul was telling them concerning them being "begotten" by the gospel? You think that you know that Paul was not speaking of anyone being born again by the gospel but if he wasn't then please give us your interpretation of the meaning of Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 4:15.
And would you finally answer my previous question about this subject. Does the fact that what Paul wrote in the following passage in one of his last epistles nullify the fact that He does speak of those in the Body being saved by a "rebirth"?
"But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).
Besides that, the Apostle Paul tells those in the Body of Christ that once living believers will be caught up to meet Him in the air then they will forever be with Him:
"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" (1 Thess.4:17).
So when the Lord Jesus returns to set up His earthly kingdom those in the Body will be with Him. And since only those who are "born again" can enter that kingdom (Jn.3:3,5) then common sense dictates that those in the Body of Christ are born again.
Right Divider
Body part
Your story keeps changing every time that someone shows your error.
Where does Paul say anything even remotely similar to "Ye must be born again"?
Last edited:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul speaks of those in the Body being saved by a rebirth so if a person is to be saved they MUST experience a rebirth.
You think that you are an expert on this subject so I can't imagine why don't tell us your interpretation of the meaning of Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 4:15. You are sure you know what Paul's words don't mean in that verse so you must know what they do mean. So why not share your knowledge with us?
And while you are at it why don't you address my point about Paul saying that those in the Body of Christ being forever with the Lord Jesus?
Your silence on these two things are not helping your argument in anyway but instead are damaging your argument that those in the Body of Christ do not need to be "born again" in order to be saved.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
-DELETED-
Right Divider
Body part
And you think that this is the exact same thing that Jesus was telling Nicodemus?
Do you know the difference between singular and plural?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you still refuse to even attempt to actually address the points which I made. Why is that?
Yes, I believe that what Paul was speaking about at Titus 3:4-5 is the same thing which the Lord Jesus told Nicodemus and it is obvious that here we can see him speaking in a "singular" sense to Nicodemus;
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn.3:3).
Do you know the difference between singular and plural?
I answer all of your points but you answer none of mine. Why is that?
Right Divider
Body part
Do you not know about figures of speech? Why is Jesus excluding women? Do women NOT need to be born again?
Jesus is using a figure of speech called a GENERALIZATION.
Later Jesus says THIS:
Joh 3:7 KJV Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The THEE is SINGULAR (Nicodemus)... the YE is PLURAL ... therefore it is NOT Nicodemus ALONE.
musterion
Well-known member
Yep, but instead of the believer's (re)birth, he speaks of their (co)death.
musterion
Well-known member
Good catch, brother musty! But, brother-don't you know? According to Jer., "it all says the same thing!!!!" Why bother with the details of the term, "born again?"Why Paul, Jer?
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." 1 Peter 1:2 KJV
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7 KJV
In both cases here, blood is used to cleanse.
Notice, as this overrated thread winds down:
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20 KJV
When Paul speaks about the cross of Christ, he sometimes refers to this "with crucifixion." Outside of Romans-Philemon, you will not find this. The bible is a book of details.
There is a dichotomy, a division. In this dispensation, the believer is accounted to be "crucified with Christ." That is, the believer is applied to the cross, if you will. Outside the present age, dispensation, the blood of the cross is applied to the person. The direction of the 2 ways is opposite. You will not find Paul speaking of being washed in the blood(or "born again," or....)and nowhere outside of Roman-Philemon is anyone spoken of being crucified with Christ. Without recognizing Paul's distinct ministry, the dispensation of the grace of God, facts like these get "brushed aside", and divisions go unnoticed. And the proof texts supporting eternal "in-security" in past ages, as STP would say, get "blended" together with the doctrine for this dispensation.
I once again nominate this post for BPOTD-"Brilliant Post Of The Decade."
Let the applause commence.....I would applaud myself, but my humility precludes that.
That, my dear Watson, is the question. And I know why, and so does Jer. There can be no doubt whatsoever....
Hi Jerry and I am one of them and here is why !
We see a valley of dry bones in Ezek 37:1-11 is talking about Israel , and it is Israel WHO will be BORN AGAIN , not Gentiles !!
Then there is 1 Cor 15:8 where Paul and Gentiles are BORN OUT OF DUE TIME for the Dispensatuona of the Grace of God !!
So , Jerry , who is BORN in DUE TIME ??
It is Israel who is BORN AGAIN when they see the ONE THEY PIERCED in Matt 24:14 -- 51 !!
Rethink your theory !!
dan p