Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

[patrick jane]

Answers [NOT] In Genesis: Flat Earth, Ken Ham & Astro-not Barry Wilmore...


12 Minutes -

 

[patrick jane]

Flat Earth: Copernican Creationism Stands On Evolution's Cosmology...

From Video Description : According to mainstream Copernican-based Young Earth Creationism, the majority of the stars we see in the night sky even now, are too far away for the light to have traveled such distances, even over the entirety of the 6-10 thousand years of all of Creation's history.

If this is true, then the majority of stars in the sky have never been seen directly by human observation.
All that is seen is the "starlight in transit", that is, starlight that was apparently created by
God Himself, and not actually generated by the physics of the star directly.


But if such an idea is acceptable to the minds of most Creationists today...
Then we must be forced to ask,

Why would God have needed to create those distant fusion-based starlight-generators in the first place, millions and billions of of light years away, if the light they are actually producing won't be seen for millions/billions of years anyway...???

13 minutes -

 

[Clete]

I thought it was obvious that starting at the 50 minute mark was clearly not not a 2 hour video. He talks about it for several minutes that's all. You're the one that told folks they must watch the videos in the the electric thread. Personally, many might think you're delusional from that thread. Move along, you have a one track mind and can't seriously discuss anything from what I've seen of you.

I also include a synopsis of what the video is about and haven't spent the last year being a complete waste of anyone's time who bothers to post a rebuttal.

It isn't the subject matter per se that makes you delusional, it's the combination of completely asinine argumentation and your complete inability to see it coupled with an unwillingness to be moved at all or hardly to even accept as valid arguments that are so good as to actually prove your position false!

If you and Dave hadn't wasted your intellectual currency on complete an utter stupidity, one might be willing to take you at your word. As is it, I'm convinced that I'm talking to liars and lunatics.

 

[Clete]

And what do folks like freelight, Mormons, JWs calvinists, and all the other questionable denominations and teachers of false doctrines do to "make you look bad"? If you're so "worried" about what unbelievers "think" about your faith then you're nothing but a man pleaser.

This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen you post.

So let me understand this argument...

"We aren't as bad as Mormon or JWs, so what's the problem?"

Yes, all those who teach false doctrine make "me" (i.e. Christianity) look bad and I am very much worried about it. That's part of why I come to a website dedicated to debating doctrine. I don't like false doctrine. I particularly don't like false doctrine that is laughably false and that immediately discredits it proponent as a crackpot.

What I like is the truth and I like sound reason and if more Christians were loyal to that, the entire world would be better for it, including them. But no! We have to deal with crackpots and lunatics and con men who get rich by selling false miracles to old women as well as otherwise well meaning preachers and evangelists who teach modified Judaism in place of the gospel of grace and everything inbetween.

Clete

 

[patrick jane]

I also include a senoptis of what the video is about and haven't spent the last year being a complete waste of anyone's time who bothers to post a rebuttal.

It isn't the subject matter per se that makes you delusional, it's the combination of completely asinine argumentation and your complete inability to see it coupled with an unwillingness to be moved at all or hardly to even accept as valid arguments that are so good as to actually prove your position false!

If you and Dave hadn't wasted your intellectual currency on complete an utter stupidity, one might be willing to take you at your word. As is it, I'm convinced that I'm talking to liars and lunatics.

Uh, I've thought flat earth is possible for less than two months, not a year. I get it, I'm delusional and you're intelligent and rational. Stop wasting YOUR time.

BTW, it's "synopsis"

 

[Clete]

FE has absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation as much as you tell yourself and the world that it does. Focus on the real damaging things to Christianity for once. You think FE is so harmful to the faith? That's more than asinine.

I explained in some detail the way in which the topic applies to the issue of salvation.

Guess what, Patrick, if more people think Christianity is stupidity, fewer people will get saved.

 

[Right Divider]

Uh, I've thought flat earth is possible for less than two months, not a year. I get it, I'm delusional and you're intelligent and rational. Stop wasting YOUR time.

BTW, it's "synopsis"

You are delusional. You are so into this "new thing" that you've "discovered" that you cannot accept even the simplest and plainest truth when it's shown to you.

 

[patrick jane]

This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen you post.

So let me understand this argument...

"We aren't as bad as Mormon or JWs, so what's the problem?"

Yes, all those who teach false doctrine make "me" (i.e. Christianity) look bad and I am very much worried about it. That's part of why I come to a website dedicated to debating doctrine. I don't like false doctrine. I particularly don't like false doctrine that is laughably false and that immediately discredits it proponent as a crackpot.

What I like is the truth and I like sound reason and if more Christians were loyal to that, the entire world would be better for it, including them. But no! We have to deal with crackpots and lunatics and con men who get rich by selling false miracles to old women as well as otherwise well meaning preachers and evangelists who teach modified Judaism in place of the gospel of grace and everything inbetween.

Clete

You're pretty dense Clete. The point is, if you want to worry about flat earth leading Christians astray and causing unbelievers to avoid Jesus Christ, then you should worry even MORE about truly false doctrines and "denominations". You're sensitive about this topic and blindly biased, but I've seen worse and you're not alone in your delusional thinking.

 

[patrick jane]

You are delusional. You are so into this "new thing" that you've "discovered" that you cannot accept even the simplest and plainest truth when it's shown to you.

You're acting stupid.

 

[patrick jane]

I explained in some detail the way in which the topic applies to the issue of salvation.

Guess what, Patrick, if more people think Christianity is stupidity, fewer people will get saved.

That's what flat earth does Clete? Proof? I have stacks of testimony from believers and unbelievers alike. Where's your witnesses to leaving or avoiding Christianity because they heard a Christian support flat earth?

 

[patrick jane]

I explained in some detail the way in which the topic applies to the issue of salvation.

Guess what, Patrick, if more people think Christianity is stupidity, fewer people will get saved.

Thankfully, we have folks like you to go out and win people for Christ and get folks saved. He needs you out there fighting flat earth, right?

 

[nikolai_42]

"The heliocentric "universe" requires scientific "experts" to reveal the true nature of the cosmos, and theological "experts" to explain why the Bible doesn't really mean what God says at face value. The Biblical Cosmology and Flat Earth requires no special privileged knowledge, either in scripture or through special scientific expertise".

It's almost as if in your little word there are no conspiracies, past present or future. There's not much evil out there and evil certainly doesn't work together to advance satan's agenda either knowingly or unawares. It's just a great big blue ball flying and spinning through "deep space" for 4.9 billion years straight, a GOOD and loving, HONEST "planet" with nothing nefarious going on ever. We're civilized now.

You mentioned the word reel and the "you can't overlook that" or something. I can't overlook the hundred plus scriptures that equate an enclosed flat earth and cosmos. I am troubled by folks that blindly accept everything they're told and all the "official" stories. We simply think differently on this, I'm not overly concerned about it.

BTW, you are "buying in to the deception" but it's not your fault and I don't think it's a sin to be deceived. :idunno:

It's not the idea of a flat earth (or even geocentricity - which I haven't talked about directly) that concerns me. It's the utterly conspiratorial nature of the whole thing. I never said (or have believed) that conspiracies don't exist. They do. They always have and always will. But Isaiah 8 (which I quoted) says they aren't to be the focus. If you had come on and said something like "FE {or geocentricity or whatever} is true because it is found directly in scripture. The earth has corners and pillars and..." and had gone on to quote scripture and say that this is simply why you believe it, I would still take issue with it since I don't believe scripture necessitates a flat earth (and science shows that it isn't) but it wouldn't be a big deal. The theory appeals to the senses but fails to deliver on the evidence (which is why, I believe, the excessive use of mockery and claiming everyone else has been duped). Again - if it had been simply that the bible says it, I believe it (and I can't give any evidence for it), I would think that would be fine.

However - nearly every response you give is one that refers to the conspiracy, that "they" don't want you do know the truth, that everyone is deceived - yet very rarely have you answered a question directly. You do say it can be found on the internet. You do post videos (many of which are more conspiracy-inclined). But there isn't much making the case for FE on the basis of evidence other than assuming things to be ridiculous based on experience (which was what that 19th century list of 100 supports for a FE was, by enlarge). On the one hand you say it isn't a big deal not to believe in it ("We simply think differently on this.") but then on the other hand your responses are full of ridicule for anyone who doesn't hold to FE and you post verses (such as below) that essentially pronounce judgment on people who "simply think differently". There's something bigger at work here than a simple rejection of certain scientific data. You have imbibed a mode of thought that gives heed to conspiracies MORE than God. Bible verse postings notwithstanding, the substance of your responses seems to be void of real support.

Contrast this with Jesus' resurrection. Thomas was shown the proof that he needed and Jesus showed Himself to over 500 people, I believe. The lives of the apostles was further evidence of the resurrection - they lived as men don't live unless they have been fundamentally changed. They were unafraid to die for something that they believed strongly AND they were evangelical about it. They didn't mock people for not believing in the resurrection. They didn't say everyone else was part of the conspiracy - they preached the truth as it was and many were saved. And the Bereans didn't take what they were told at face value, they searched the scriptures to see if what they were being told was true. Paul had no problem being questioned but commended the Bereans. And 5 times in Acts it speaks of Paul reasoning with the people - and they couldn't resist his reasoning (but if they couldn't accept it, they just assaulted him). So the truth is not afraid of challenge. Nor does it put down those who test it as a substitute for counter-argument.

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 KJV -
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:


31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


Romans 1:18-30 KJV -
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

 

[patrick jane]

Electric/Toroidal Flat Earth & the "Prince of the Power of the Aether"...

From Video Description : A quick discussion on the topics of... Flat Earth/Enclosed Cosmology, Electric universe theory, Tesla, Eric Dollard, the toroid, electromagnetism, the luminaries/heavens, "spirit science", the Great Deception, and of course, Satan ("the Prince of the Power of the Air/Aether")...

Eric Dollard - History and theory of Electricity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4l0...


D13 Watchmen - "The Biggest Secret Ever Kept in History Revealed": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8qwg...


Thunderbolts Project - "Thunderbolts of the gods" (electric universe theory): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AUA7...


Spirit Science - "Toroidal Flow" (useful for demonstrating how New Age mysticism employs the toroid): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-4zd...


15 minutes -

 

[Clete]

Uh, I've thought flat earth is possible for less than two months, not a year. I get it, I'm delusional and you're intelligent and rational. Stop wasting YOUR time.

BTW, it's "synopsis"

It was hyperbole. I've begun referring to those "arguing" in favor of this nonsense as though they've been participating from the beginning of the first flat-earth thread that Dave started. Even that wasn't a full year ago.

You have less excuse because all of the excellent arguments proving, and yes I do mean proving, that the Earth is a sphere that orbits the Sun are all posted and still readily available to read and go over in as much detail as anyone could stand.

The truth about the stupidity of the flat-earthism has been laid at your feet and you have refused to probably even look at it, never mind allow it to convince you and so yes, you are delusional and irrational.

If you think I intend to let up on pointing that out because it exasperates you, you'd better think again.

Clete

 

[Clete]

Thankfully, we have folks like you to go out and win people for Christ and get folks saved. He needs you out there fighting flat earth, right?

Look at what you're being reduced to here, Patrick.

I'm fighting the flat-earth stupidity where the fight finds me. For now, that's only here, thank the Lord!

Clete

 

[patrick jane]

It was hyperbole. I've begun referring to those "arguing" in favor of this nonsense as though they've been participating from the beginning of the first flat-earth thread that Dave started. Even that wasn't a full year ago.

You have less excuse because all of the excellent arguments proving, and yes I do mean proving, that the Earth is a sphere that orbits the Sun are all posted and still readily available to read and go over in as much detail as anyone could stand.

The truth about the stupidity of the flat-earthism has been laid at your feet and you have refused to probably even look at it, never mind allow it to convince you and so yes, you are delusional and irrational.

If you think I intend to let up on pointing that out because it exasperates you, you'd better think again.

Clete

I'm used to it, Clete, you aren't doing anything new. It doesn't exasperate me one bit, it makes me more determined. I've known I have lived on a globe for almost 50 years, I was taught the "proof" and it'a all I heard all my life. Excuse me for spending two months off the planet. It's a liberating way of thinking. I don't pretend to have secret or special knowledge but I know what see, hear and feel. I'm not "destroying" the faith or leading folks astray. Adults with common sense can decide for themselves.

 

[Right Divider]

You're acting stupid.

No, I'm not. But you are with all of your ridiculous videos and the fact that you reject facts.

The apparent size of the sun is the SAME all day long. That simple FACT refutes the idea that the sun circles a flat earth.

 

[Clete]

I'm used to it, Clete, you aren't doing anything new. It doesn't exasperate me one bit, it makes me more determined.

This was a lie.

I've known I have lived on a globe for almost 50 years, I was taught the "proof" and it'a all I heard all my life. Excuse me for spending two months off the planet.

I will not excuse it. There is sufficient information on these flat Earth thread for you to have been brought back to the planet inside of two minutes! And no, that isn't an exaggeration. Two minutes!

It's a liberating way of thinking.

Yes, departing from the moorings of reason and sanity is very "freeing". I have no doubt.

I don't pretend to have secret or special knowledge but I know what see, hear and feel. I'm not "destroying" the faith or leading folks astray. Adults with common sense can decide for themselves.

Adults with common sense can watch the first 120 seconds of any number of the videos I've posted and now that ever flat-earthers are retarded crackpots. If they are made to associate flat-earthism with Christianity, they'll draw the exact same conclusion about it as well.

Clete

 

[patrick jane]

So God stopped the sun and moon for about a whole day but God did not stop the earth, stars or the rest of the endless "deep space" or the googol plex of other stars and "planets". Or maybe God left that out because we didn't need to know or "we weren't ready yet" to hear the truth.

Again, you decide. God or Copernicus the Mason, and the other Masons, Keplar, Newton and Pythagorus. The Big Bang was invented by a Jesuit priest from Belgium who hung out with Einstein. Put your faith in them, it "makes sense".

Joshua 10:12-14 KJV -
Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.


13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.


14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel.

Isaiah 38:6-8 KJV -
And I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria: and I will defend this city.


7 And this shall be a sign unto thee from the Lord, that the Lord will do this thing that he hath spoken;


8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

 

[patrick jane]

I've posted this already but it's been a while. It always bears repeating. The sun has a circuit and a race to run, the earth does not. The earth is as a tabernacle FOR the sun. His going forth is to the END OF HEAVEN, wait . . . Isn't that 14 billion LIGHT Years away?

Psalm 19 - KJV -
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.