Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

[Derf]

Reread what saith scripture. Your video was amateur hour for 17 minutes. He said things like "the flat earthers have just been lucky" he says, that because they can attach mystery to Antarctica that's why it was popular. I suspect that once one see the truth they tire of telling the dumb and blind world. Some people understand, others never will, the globe is ingrained in your brain. Perhaps by somewhat of a revelation it hits you. You are the one putting extra non-biblical meaning to the words circuit and lines. Read what it says, not what you say. The WHOLE heaven, the END OF THE HEAVEN..We're not zipping through "space" at millions upon millions of miles per hour while spinning 1,000 miles per hour. The earth has satellites, some of which are the sun and moon. Did you watch and listen to the eclipse from a plane video yet? Deal with it internally for a while.

What do these verses describe to you?

Psalm 19:1-6 KJV - The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 [FONT=&]Their line is gone out through all the earth[/FONT], and their words to the end of the world. [FONT=&]In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,[/FONT]
5 [FONT=&]Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber[/FONT], and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from [FONT=&]the end of the heaven[/FONT], and [FONT=&]his circuit unto the ends of it[/FONT]: and there is [FONT=&]nothing hid from the heat thereof.[/FONT]
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

Job 37:3 KJV - He directeth it [FONT=&]under the whole heaven[/FONT], and his lightning [FONT=&]unto the ends of the earth[/FONT].


Job 28:24-27 KJV - For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and [FONT=&]seeth under the whole heaven[/FONT];
25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.
26 When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder:
27 Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out.


Under the WHOLE heaven is an enclosed flat earth and cosmos or could be. Because if the whole heaven is as big as science says, that would require other planets [FONT=&]with life, waters, under the whole heaven[/FONT]. None of which is mentioned in scripture. It sounds to me there that the tabernacle for the sun makes the earth the center of the "universe", the earth is the tabernacle.

"Down" and "under" are relative terms. They suggest a "higher" and a "lower" that are compared.

These terms fit fine in either flat or globe earth conceptions.

The way it fits in the globe earth (I'll leave the flat earth explanation to you) is that "down", when standing on the earth, is beneath the earth we stand on. "Down" when flying in the sky refers to anything from the flight height to the earth, and possibly under the earth. If heaven includes our atmosphere and extends into outer space (beyond our atmosphere), then "under the whole heaven" includes the whole earth. There's no cause for it to include other planets, stars, the moon, or anything outside of earth, except, perhaps, if someone from earth makes it to outer space--they would still be under the same jurisdiction of the earth, at least in God's eyes (my conjecture here).

We might ask, if standing on the globe earth, where does "down" end? I suppose that is a good question if we could ever dig far enough down to worry about whether we stop going down and start going up. For now, I suggest it's not that big a deal.

The ends of the earth are not too hard to figure out, are they? It includes the whole earth--every person or every continent, depending on the focus of the words.

Some expressions work much better with a globe earth. Your reference to the tabernacle of the sun, and comparing it to a bridegroom leaving his chamber seems to be talking about the daily sunrise, and does not work at all on the flat earth, since the sun never goes behind anything except clouds and possibly the moon or some unknown object during an eclipse (opinions vary, apparently). For the globe model, the sun indeed goes out of view behind the earth horizon, thus providing actual experience that can be represented by the beautifully poetic Psalm. And thus confirming what you say about the earth being the sun's tabernacle--but only the globe earth.

By the way, I watched your eclipse video. It was terrible for a bunch of reasons! One is that he rejected that rainbows can be caused (not "are caused" but "can be caused") by sunlight. So, even if you have a prism that you hold up to a beam of light from the sun, and you see the spectrum spread out into the different colors, his words that the light that hits an object can't be split into different frequencies says that the "rain" bow you see from a prism is not caused by sunlight.

 

[Wick Stick]

No no no, this is wrong.

Babylonian religion regards the sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, and saturn to be the pantheon of gods. The fundamental tenet of their beliefs was that man is made to serve the gods (not assault them).

The Tower of Babel is not an unknown quantity. The ruins of it still exist, and we know why it was built, because the Babylonians wrote it down on tablets which we still have, to this day.

The Babylonians called it E-Temenanki, which translated is House (E-) of the Foundation Pegs (Temen) of Heaven (An) on Earth (Ki).

Each tier of the 7-step ziggurat was laid with the intention that it be a foundation on which sat one of the heavens. Each of the heavens was governed by one of the aforementioned planet-gods.

The firmament (apsu) was represented by a pool of water on the topmost level, but if you follow what the Babylonians wrote, it had already been conquered, and that by their celestial gods, who now held control of it, and therefore needed to be served and/or appeased.

 

[patrick jane]

"Down" and "under" are relative terms. They suggest a "higher" and a "lower" that are compared.

These terms fit fine in either flat or globe earth conceptions.

The way it fits in the globe earth (I'll leave the flat earth explanation to you) is that "down", when standing on the earth, is beneath the earth we stand on. "Down" when flying in the sky refers to anything from the flight height to the earth, and possibly under the earth. If heaven includes our atmosphere and extends into outer space (beyond our atmosphere), then "under the whole heaven" includes the whole earth. There's no cause for it to include other planets, stars, the moon, or anything outside of earth, except, perhaps, if someone from earth makes it to outer space--they would still be under the same jurisdiction of the earth, at least in God's eyes (my conjecture here).

We might ask, if standing on the globe earth, where does "down" end? I suppose that is a good question if we could ever dig far enough down to worry about whether we stop going down and start going up. For now, I suggest it's not that big a deal.

The ends of the earth are not too hard to figure out, are they? It includes the whole earth--every person or every continent, depending on the focus of the words.

Some expressions work much better with a globe earth. Your reference to the tabernacle of the sun, and comparing it to a bridegroom leaving his chamber seems to be talking about the daily sunrise, and does not work at all on the flat earth, since the sun never goes behind anything except clouds and possibly the moon or some unknown object during an eclipse (opinions vary, apparently). For the globe model, the sun indeed goes out of view behind the earth horizon, thus providing actual experience that can be represented by the beautifully poetic Psalm. And thus confirming what you say about the earth being the sun's tabernacle--but only the globe earth.

By the way, I watched your eclipse video. It was terrible for a bunch of reasons! One is that he rejected that rainbows can be caused (not "are caused" but "can be caused") by sunlight. So, even if you have a prism that you hold up to a beam of light from the sun, and you see the spectrum spread out into the different colors, his words that the light that hits an object can't be split into different frequencies says that the "rain" bow you see from a prism is not caused by sunlight.

The WHOLE HEAVEN implies to me there are no parts of heaven that are NOT above the earth. I'll see if I can explain better, I don't want to try to MAKE it fit the scriptures. But when God uses a word combination like: WHOLE HEAVEN and TO THE ENDS OF HEAVEN, I think it's plainly saying we are the center, the focus, the Tabernacle that He set FOR THE SUN. To me, it means the whole heaven is above us, not just a mere speck or slice if the flying, "expanding" endless void of a "universe". In the science realm we have evolution over billions of years and a firmament that "created itself from nothing". Nothing became mankind, we are on a spinning ball and only a speck in the vast cosmos, almost insignificant and just "lucky". We can explain everything with "tilts of an axis", pear shape earth they said recently, 1,000 pages on gravity and equations, perspective, refraction, bad cameras, dishonest and deceptive lunatics that think there's a "conspiracy". (You should check out my Conspiracy thread for so many other connections even without the plain and clear scriptures. That eclipse view from a plane in 2015 is amazing to watch, I've never seen the sun in such detail in me whole life. I don't take his opinions as fact, rather I saw for myself and listened to the documented reports from eyewitness Physicists and astronomers. Was that the only reason the "video was terrible." Did you hear the testimonies or see the footage of the eclipse? Terrible?

Some folks can't get it I suppose. I didn't invent these ideas and information but I believe it more everyday.

 

[patrick jane]

No no no, this is wrong.

Babylonian religion regards the sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, and saturn to be the pantheon of gods. The fundamental tenet of their beliefs was that man is made to serve the gods (not assault them).

The Tower of Babel is not an unknown quantity. The ruins of it still exist, and we know why it was built, because the Babylonians wrote it down on tablets which we still have, to this day.

The Babylonians called it E-Temenanki, which translated is House (E-) of the Foundation Pegs (Temen) of Heaven (An) on Earth (Ki).

Each tier of the 7-step ziggurat was laid with the intention that it be a foundation on which sat one of the heavens. Each of the heavens was governed by one of the aforementioned planet-gods.

The firmament (apsu) was represented by a pool of water on the topmost level, but if you follow what the Babylonians wrote, it had already been conquered, and that by their celestial gods, who now held control of it, and therefore needed to be served and/or appeased.

I believe the Bible, not Babylonian babble about Babel.

 

[daqq]

No no no, this is wrong.

Babylonian religion regards the sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars, jupiter, and saturn to be the pantheon of gods. The fundamental tenet of their beliefs was that man is made to serve the gods (not assault them).

The Tower of Babel is not an unknown quantity. The ruins of it still exist, and we know why it was built, because the Babylonians wrote it down on tablets which we still have, to this day.

The Babylonians called it E-Temenanki, which translated is House (E-) of the Foundation Pegs (Temen) of Heaven (An) on Earth (Ki).

Each tier of the 7-step ziggurat was laid with the intention that it be a foundation on which sat one of the heavens. Each of the heavens was governed by one of the aforementioned planet-gods.

The firmament (apsu) was represented by a pool of water on the topmost level, but if you follow what the Babylonians wrote, it had already been conquered, and that by their celestial gods, who now held control of it, and therefore needed to be served and/or appeased.

Lol, none of that matters anymore so long as you can use the imagery to make cool looking videos and posters out of it and use it to promote your cool sounding last days en-vogue theory. It's a cool looking tower with an evil name dude; of course they were assaulting the solid dome rakia canopy that shields the earth from alien invasions: they were trying to bring the Nephilim down to earth again so they could start a one-world government under the antichrist Nim-bar-Kush beast system! :duh: :chuckle:

 

[Derf]

I've explained that, but some don't seem to get it.

The absolute minimum viewing angle in the FE model still puts the sun 9 degrees ABOVE the horizon. It's really simple.

I agree, but once one decides not to listen to the evidence against one's position, nothing can really get through to him. I hope PJ's not there yet, but it seems like he's heading that way fast.

 

[patrick jane]

Lol, none of that matters anymore so long as you can use the imagery to make cool looking videos and posters out of it and use it to promote your cool sounding last days en-vogue theory. It's a cool looking tower with an evil name dude; of course they were assaulting the solid dome rakia canopy that shields the earth from alien invasions: they were trying to bring the Nephilim down to earth again so they could start a one-world government under the antichrist Nim-bar-Kush beast system! :duh: :chuckle:

I've "learned" enough of your own personal interpretations, like how you added the word "one end" when "interpreting" ends of the heavens. Pretty slick, but Derf noticed it too. Go find another thread to "know everything" in and prove everybody they have the "wrong interpretation", and yours is strictly biblical (except for and extra word here and there). You're not "proving" anything here just as you know I'm not. I think you've supplied just about every "argument" you can come up with. Your work is done here. :chuckle:

BTW, there's no such things as aliens as depicted in Hollywood, that's just on of many components of the Great Deception that's been taking place for thousands of years. It's a NWO invention and don't pretend there aren't principalities and powers in high places leading people to the pit. And I've never once tried to predict the "end times" but we do know the times will come unless you're a preterist. Enough of marginalizing what others say and mean. You have a strange interpretation thing going on. :chuckle: [MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION]

 

[daqq]

I've "learned" enough of your own personal interpretations, like how you added the word "one end" when "interpreting" ends of the heavens. Pretty slick, but Derf noticed it too. Go find another thread to "know everything" in and prove everybody they have the "wrong interpretation", and yours is strictly biblical (except for and extra word here and there). You're not "proving" anything here just as you know I'm not. I think you've supplied just about every "argument" you can come up with. Your work is done here. :chuckle:

Nothing but speech and not "interpretation", but you and Derf both have your own reasons for seeing what you want to see and trying to make me look like some sort of bad guy. I quoted the Psalm just as you did, it says what is says regardless of how I tried to explain it, what I quoted is the authority, you and Derf are making things up because neither of you like what I am saying, boohoo, but your flat earth theory denies what the Psalm says about the sun and the things in the firmament, (the handiwork of the Creator), traversing the heavens in a LINE, not a circle. Moreover you, (and probably Derf too, who still has yet to answer any of my posts which included much scripture), still appear to have missed the whole point. The point was that you treat the scripture unjustly by forcing a strictly literal interpretation on the statements and words that you think support what you believe: while at the same time your are ignoring or subverting the statements and passages that refute what you believe, just like you have done with Psa19:4 as shown on the previous page.

 

[Right Divider]

I agree, but once one decides not to listen to the evidence against one's position, nothing can really get through to him. I hope PJ's not there yet, but it seems like he's heading that way fast.

I think that PJ is well past that line already, but he projects the "you won't look at evidence against..." on others.

I think that he thinks that geometry and trigonometry are some tools of the devil or something.

 

[daqq]

I think you've supplied just about every "argument" you can come up with. Your work is done here. :chuckle:

:wave2:

 

[patrick jane]

I agree, but once one decides not to listen to the evidence against one's position, nothing can really get through to him. I hope PJ's not there yet, but it seems like he's heading that way fast.

Psalm 104:19 KJV - He appointed the moon for seasons:[FONT=&quot] the sun knoweth his going down[/FONT].

Maybe the sun goes down and the earth is stationary, immovable, fixed, on foundations like scripture tells us. (not empty space, flying and spinning at "astronomical" speeds.) :idunno: I'm still not convinced that we're in an enclosed flat earth and cosmos but I'll never be 100% sure we're on a ball. There's a word for ball used in the Bible, God didn't use it ever to describe earth. I'm sticking to my guns for now, just like everybody else is.

 

[patrick jane]

Nothing but speech and not "interpretation", but you and Derf both have your own reasons for seeing what you want to see and trying to make me look like some sort of bad guy

Hmmm, just exactly what you've been doing. :think:

 

[Derf]

The WHOLE HEAVEN implies to me there are no parts of heaven that are NOT above the earth. I'll see if I can explain better, I don't want to try to MAKE it fit the scriptures. But when God uses a word combination like: WHOLE HEAVEN and TO THE ENDS OF HEAVEN, I think it's plainly saying we are the center, the focus, the Tabernacle that He set FOR THE SUN. To me, it means the whole heaven is above us, not just a mere speck or slice if the flying, "expanding" endless void of a "universe". In the science realm we have evolution over billions of years and a firmament that "created itself from nothing". Nothing became mankind, we are on a spinning ball and only a speck in the vast cosmos, almost insignificant and just "lucky". We can explain everything with "tilts of an axis", pear shape earth they said recently, 1,000 pages on gravity and equations, perspective, refraction, bad cameras, dishonest and deceptive lunatics that think there's a "conspiracy". (You should check out my Conspiracy thread for so many other connections even without the plain and clear scriptures. That eclipse view from a plane in 2015 is amazing to watch, I've never seen the sun in such detail in me whole life. I don't take his opinions as fact, rather I saw for myself and listened to the documented reports from eyewitness Physicists and astronomers. Was that the only reason the "video was terrible." Did you hear the testimonies or see the footage of the eclipse? Terrible?

Some folks can't get it I suppose. I didn't invent these ideas and information but I believe it more everyday.

I don't understand why you think that the whole of heaven in a globe model is NOT over the earth. But in a flat earth model, the whole of heaven would be limited to being the size of earth's disk, but ascending up in the shape of a cylinder. Imagine the flat earth as the bottom of the cylinder in this picture:

Then heaven would be the cylinder itself, the height of which is indeterminable from scripture. That's ok, I guess, but it seems kind of limiting. The globe model allows for all of universe outside the earth to be "heaven", all of the earth to be under heaven, and still fit well with scripture.

In the eclipse video, I was paying the most attention to the words of the speaker. He displayed a number of misunderstandings of how light interacts with different materials. And he spent a lot of time trying to use eye witness accounts, including many from flat earthers trying to persuade people of a flat earth, from hundreds of years ago to make his points. The phenomena couldn't very easily be limited to hundreds of years ago, but today we feel like we have a decent explanation that fits pretty well, based on the study of optics, light, and the heliocentric model. So it's harder for him to find the right kind of quotes to use from more recent times. That could be evidence of science getting a lock on the opinions, or it could be that science has actually made progress in this area. Surely you must admit that science has made at least SOME progress in the last few hundred years, even if not everything has been progress? After all, science has enabled us to type on keyboards to post messages in forums that people can read from all over the world. Do you really think such world-wide communications could be done without gaining at least SOME understanding of the shape of the earth? Like how far a line-of-sight signal can reach, or what might happen to a signal's coherence and polarity if it bounced off a dome.

This hits home a bit, as I work on the GPS satellite system, using satellites that I saw and touched while they were in the factory, launched using rockets that I saw blast off (one of which that was destroyed as it launched, and pieces of it were scattered all over the beach--see video below or here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4WHG_GgKdI), that are moved around in space as necessary, using fuel that is consumed, and parts that are damaged by radiation and sometimes micrometeorites, that no one can get to today because they are in an orbit that is too expensive to reach them effectively (some day that will change, I expect), that when they are moved around in orbit, the time on their clocks changes according to both the general and special theories of relativity (in opposite directions, but not equally), that transmit signals that can be received by your cell phone and processed to reveal where you are in a few meters of error. We deal with signals that bounce off of things, or that can't penetrate things (like buildings or canyon walls or the earth itself).

The theory of gravity, whether right or wrong about the cause of gravity, is very, very reliable in launching rockets and getting satellites (or Tesla Roadsters) into orbit (or past orbit), and in figuring out what to do about satellites that are pulled this way and that by the sun, moon, earth, and tides of the earth. And satellites don't do very well in a flat earth model. Just like the sun is much more mysterious in a flat earth model. And the moon, and the stars. This doesn't make the globe model correct, but it is one point (or several) of validation for it.

Your thread isn't about whether we can validate a model by satellite behavior or mathematics or scientific experiments, despite your profusion of videos referenced, but about whether you can validate it from the bible. Perhaps you can't. What I've seen so far, though, and tried to point out, is that the bible seems to be more favorable to a globe earth than a flat earth.

 

[Derf]

Psalm 104:19 KJV - He appointed the moon for seasons:[FONT="] the sun knoweth his going down[/FONT].

Maybe the sun goes down and the earth is stationary, immovable, fixed, on foundations like scripture tells us. (not empty space, flying and spinning at "astronomical" speeds.) :idunno: I'm still not convinced that we're in an enclosed flat earth and cosmos but I'll never be 100% sure we're on a ball. There's a word for ball used in the Bible, God didn't use it ever to describe earth. I'm sticking to my guns for now, just like everybody else is.

God didn't use "disk" or "ball" for the sun, either, yet you can observe that is presents a disk shape to our eyes. And you obviously don't have problems with watching videos of things you don't experience for yourself. So when a video is presented that gives positive evidence for the other position, do be so hasty to dismiss it.

God didn't explain a lot of things. But seeking out the truth of His creation is a wonder for us and glory for Him. Turning our back on knowledge rightfully gained by the senses he gave us, with which to observe the earth and the heavens, is a travesty.

Sticking to our guns is good for some things and bad for others. Sticking to our guns on our lives before Christ is eternally deadly.

And yes, there will be a time when you can be 100% sure...

 

[Derf]

I think that PJ is well past that line already, but he projects the "you won't look at evidence against..." on others.

I think that he thinks that geometry and trigonometry are some tools of the devil or something.

They can be tools of the devil, or tools of righteousness, as evidenced by some of the videos on this thread.

 

[patrick jane]

I don't understand why you think that the whole of heaven in a globe model is NOT over the earth. But in a flat earth model, the whole of heaven would be limited to being the size of earth's disk, but ascending up in the shape of a cylinder. Imagine the flat earth as the bottom of the cylinder in this picture:

Then heaven would be the cylinder itself, the height of which is indeterminable from scripture. That's ok, I guess, but it seems kind of limiting. The globe model allows for all of universe outside the earth to be "heaven", all of the earth to be under heaven, and still fit well with scripture.

In the eclipse video, I was paying the most attention to the words of the speaker. He displayed a number of misunderstandings of how light interacts with different materials. And he spent a lot of time trying to use eye witness accounts, including many from flat earthers trying to persuade people of a flat earth, from hundreds of years ago to make his points. The phenomena couldn't very easily be limited to hundreds of years ago, but today we feel like we have a decent explanation that fits pretty well, based on the study of optics, light, and the heliocentric model. So it's harder for him to find the right kind of quotes to use from more recent times. That could be evidence of science getting a lock on the opinions, or it could be that science has actually made progress in this area. Surely you must admit that science has made at least SOME progress in the last few hundred years, even if not everything has been progress? After all, science has enabled us to type on keyboards to post messages in forums that people can read from all over the world. Do you really think such world-wide communications could be done without gaining at least SOME understanding of the shape of the earth? Like how far a line-of-sight signal can reach, or what might happen to a signal's coherence and polarity if it bounced off a dome.

This hits home a bit, as I work on the GPS satellite system, using satellites that I saw and touched while they were in the factory, launched using rockets that I saw blast off (one of which that was destroyed as it launched, and pieces of it were scattered all over the beach--see video below or here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4WHG_GgKdI), that are moved around in space as necessary, using fuel that is consumed, and parts that are damaged by radiation and sometimes micrometeorites, that no one can get to today because they are in an orbit that is too expensive to reach them effectively (some day that will change, I expect), that when they are moved around in orbit, the time on their clocks changes according to both the general and special theories of relativity (in opposite directions, but not equally), that transmit signals that can be received by your cell phone and processed to reveal where you are in a few meters of error. We deal with signals that bounce off of things, or that can't penetrate things (like buildings or canyon walls or the earth itself).

The theory of gravity, whether right or wrong about the cause of gravity, is very, very reliable in launching rockets and getting satellites (or Tesla Roadsters) into orbit (or past orbit), and in figuring out what to do about satellites that are pulled this way and that by the sun, moon, earth, and tides of the earth. And satellites don't do very well in a flat earth model. Just like the sun is much more mysterious in a flat earth model. And the moon, and the stars. This doesn't make the globe model correct, but it is one point (or several) of validation for it.

Your thread isn't about whether we can validate a model by satellite behavior or mathematics or scientific experiments, despite your profusion of videos referenced, but about whether you can validate it from the bible. Perhaps you can't. What I've seen so far, though, and tried to point out, is that the bible seems to be more favorable to a globe earth than a flat earth.

I was right, you're not "getting" it, especially if you think the Bible in any way favors a globe model or says that in any way. Every video I've posted (except the first few days of the thread), has quoted scripture or talked about or the Biblical deception we're brainwashed into. If you can't see it I understand. I couldn't see it either until 3 weeks ago. You would have good points except I'm not the only one who sees an enclosed flat earth and cosmos IN THE Bible and I didn't come up with the concept. Do you think believers would purposely lie and try to deceive other Christians? I'm not. I wish I could discuss this with like-minded people on TOL but they're not participating. There's much much more evidence than what's plainly written in the Bible out in the visible world. There are likely more people that believe flat earth that DON'T accept the free gift and don't believe in Jesus Christ than there are that do believe FE and God. And nope, no cylinder, not even close to what God tells us.

Show me all the scriptures that prove a ball shaped earth in your mind if you want to continue "debunking" the clear scripture I've been posting WITH Biblical definitions (which are about the same as modern dictionaries).

 

[daqq]

Hmmm, just exactly what you've been doing. :think:

Nope, you and Derf do not speak according to the scripture: I did, and neither of you were capable of recognizing that fact. It is the Torah and the Master which taught me that about the ends of the heavens:

Deuteronomy 30:4 LXX Brenton English Translation
4 If thy dispersion be from one end of heaven to the other, thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and thence will the Lord thy God take thee.

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Psalm 19:6 LXX Brenton English Translation
6 (18:6) His going forth is from the extremity of heaven, and his circuit to the other end of heaven: and no one shall be hidden from his heat.

:wave2:

 

[Derf]

I was right, you're not "getting" it, especially if you think the Bible in any way favors a globe model or says that in any way. Every video I've posted (except the first few days of the thread), has quoted scripture or talked about or the Biblical deception we're brainwashed into. If you can't see it I understand. I couldn't see it either until 3 weeks ago. You would have good points except I'm not the only one who sees an enclosed flat earth and cosmos IN THE Bible and I didn't come up with the concept. Do you think believers would purposely lie and try to deceive other Christians? I'm not. I wish I could discuss this with like-minded people on TOL but they're not participating. There's much much more evidence than what's plainly written in the Bible out in the visible world. There are likely more people that believe flat earth that DON'T accept the free gift and don't believe in Jesus Christ than there are that do believe FE and God.

Show me all the scriptures that prove a ball shaped earth in your mind if you want to continue "debunking" the clear scripture I've been posting WITH Biblical definitions (which are about the same as modern dictionaries).

As I've pointed out, so many of the scriptures you are using don't favor a flat earth concept. They don't necessarily favor a globe earth concept, either, but some do.

And every time you post a video of a high-altitude picture showing a flat line for a horizon (even though I showed you that your own video showed a curve) you express to me that you don't think scripture is enough, either. I already told you I don't think the bible gives enough evidence for a globe earth conclusion.

But here's one more try. Where did Jesus go when He ascended into "heaven"? As far as we know, He went "up". If, then, heaven is "up" from the earth, what would it look like when Jesus got there and looked back down? It would look like a disk. What does a ball or a sphere look like? It looks like a disk. Is God going to describe something that we could never see? We can't see a "globe" earth, because the best we can do is to view it from a single angle. It will always be a "disk" to our sight.

You might as well ask God to describe tesseracts and other, higher dimensional figures, but for what purpose?

Listen, I don't know for sure if believers would try to deceive other believers on this topic, but believers lie. And sometimes they lie to other believers, else Paul would not need to have written Eph 4:25. I don't think you're trying to do that, just as I hope you dont' think I'm trying to do that to you.

I'm just saying that I have physical experience with things that function on a globe-earth concept and would not function in a flat earth model, or at least non of the flat earth models I've seen. And as I pointed out to daqq, I don't want my interpretation, whether flat or globe earth, to get in the way of the truth of scripture.

You've already rejected some of the best verses, like Job 26:7b KJV:
He ... hangeth the earth upon nothing.

What are we supposed to do when a single author seems to contradict himself: [Job 9:6 KJV]
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

If Job 9 says that the earth HAS pillars and Job 26 says it DOESN'T have pillars, what are we to do? Is the author of Job contradicting himself? And not only the author of Job, but Job himself said both those things.

You have to allow the scriptures to say things in parabolic language sometimes. When it speaks of pillars, does it have to mean actual physical pillars? Why? Is heaven an actual physical thing? or is it a space to put things in. Even scientists aren't sure. But Job 26 might be saying it is a space to put things in. And if you put things in it without proper physical movement, they might all become jumbled. The earth, without the movement of its orbit around the sun, might quickly fall into the sun. Thus, God's design of a solar system can be understood to mean the same as both "pillars" in Job 9 and "nothing" in Job 26.

In the flat earth model, you have to close one eye to get it to work with scripture. I'm not ready to close that eye, and I hope you aren't either.

 

[patrick jane]

God didn't use "disk" or "ball" for the sun, either, yet you can observe that is presents a disk shape to our eyes. And you obviously don't have problems with watching videos of things you don't experience for yourself. So when a video is presented that gives positive evidence for the other position, do be so hasty to dismiss it.

God didn't explain a lot of things. But seeking out the truth of His creation is a wonder for us and glory for Him. Turning our back on knowledge rightfully gained by the senses he gave us, with which to observe the earth and the heavens, is a travesty.

Sticking to our guns is good for some things and bad for others. Sticking to our guns on our lives before Christ is eternally deadly.

And yes, there will be a time when you can be 100% sure...

Yes, I've noted that several times to others. We will know one day and I don't expect answers from God in this life, but I see answers. I certainly don't love the world and I feel like I'm possibly helping others, all glory to God. If I'm hurting people I pray that God lets me know and the sooner the better. But no comment on: the sun knows it's going down and no mention of the earth going down in any way shape or form. One thing I do know is that nobody here can prove I'm on a ball. There's tons of scripture describing us in an enclosed flat earth and firmament that you're ignoring or possibly interpreting wrong. It goes without saying that at least 97% of the world knows for sure that I'm interpreting wrong and I'll be the first one to say it and have said it. I could very easily be wrong about tons of scripture more so than anyone I'm debating. It boils down to two perspectives. One either thinks it's possible bolstered by scripture or one believes it's IMpossible and are 100% sure of a globe. If I could, I'd only chat with those who think it's possible WITH GOD. It either is or it isn't and I think it is. As far as a lecture on good and evil and sticking to our guns for bad things, I'll go with my inner voice that says it is possible and in my mind, likely. Thanks for participating and reminding me to seek evidence for both sides. I intend to spend more time absorbing scientific evidence and the determining factors for all the equations, video proof of a globe and anything related to globe proof. I owe to everybody here. It does stand to reason however, that I've been convinced of a globe and heard much of the evidence for a globe for 45 years (I'm 49 almost). It's not unheard of to question things and test the spirits for a few months out of 540.

P.S. ATTENTION: The videos
I post from a particular channel that may seem in the first few minutes that it's promoting occult beliefs or end times predictions. He makes no predictions but shares interpretations with scripture most times. They're not promoting those type things but rather EXPOSING THEM and informing people of the CURRENT trends and occult activity and how far they go back. The videos often start with crazy preachers and speakers and new age practices of OTHER PEOPLE. Pay attention and the real speaker speaks, who is a Christian, quotes scriptures and offers HIS interpretation, which are very similar to mine. The videos also switch back and forth from EXPOSING EVIL BELIEFS and interpreting. They are informative and educational and uplifting and positive. And short. Those are the ones with strange titles but some others in the thread are other Christians that share my views and beliefs and also show some non-biblical evidence. Most of the time, even that evidence is connected to God in my mind.

 

[Derf]

But no comment on: the sun knows it's going down and no mention of the earth going down in any way shape or form. One thing I do know is that nobody here can prove I'm on a ball.

Are you saying the sun is a sentient being? It actually "knows" something? You have to be careful where you take poetic language. It's valuable, but do we understand its intent? That's why I quoted from Job 9 and 26. Those verses could be seen to be contradictory, but I don't think they were meant to be.

I can't guarantee that the sun isn't a sentient being, but there aren't too many of these videos suggesting that's the case. Why not? Isn't that just as important? Can we talk to the sun? Can it tell us of its knowledge?

Maybe, if David were writing to someone standing on the sun, he would have said something about the earth knowing its going down. But from the earth viewpoint, the earth doesn't move. It doesn't spin, it doesn't circle the sun, and it doesn't hurtle through space. It's a viewpoint thing. There's not much reason for David or Job or most others to comment on it. Moses, maybe, but he didn't.