Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

[Right Divider]

It was lame attempt though, right? Twisting scriptures? And you seem to think you "corrected" me. Nope, not a hint of insult there. If this is all you're going to do here then have a blast. If you can find scriptures that support a ball earth flying and spinning through infinite space, feel free.

• It was lame to try to make FACE mean FLAT.
• That is a case of TWISTING the scripture from its PLAIN meaning into what you wanted it to mean.
• Indeed, you were corrected and shown that FACE does NOT means FLAT in the scripture.
• The Bible does NOT explicitly give any definition of the shape of the earth.
• Every time that I look up one of the scriptures that you claim supports a flat earth, I find that it simply does no such thing.
• Many times the Bible does talk about sun rise and sun set, which oppose a flat earth.

 

[patrick jane]

• Many times the Bible does talk about sun rise and sun set, which oppose a flat earth.

Sunrises and sunsets do not make earth a ball, flying and spinning through infinite space at millions of miles per hour. No scripture supports that IMO, and we do have scriptures describing the earth and "space". The rises and settings are explained beautifully and scientifically on other flat earth threads here.

 

[patrick jane]

Everyone please read the very first post in this thread, the OP, to see some guidelines to try following

 

[jsanford108]

God made them. God makes perfect things. Because they WERE NOT created by the "big bang". You do belive Jesus Christ created all things, right?

John 1:1-3 KJV - [FONT=&]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[/FONT][FONT=&]2 The same was in the beginning with God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


John 1:10-12 KJV - He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[/FONT]

I believe in the Big Bang.

God said it, and BANG! It happened. Honestly, the only issue with the Big Bang theory is that atheists have added onto it, saying that before the Big Bang, the entire universe was a pre-existing infinitely compacted mass (which makes no sense, nor is there data for).

 

[jsanford108]

No problem, If you can, see my post in Dave's flat earth thread that I just made.

Would you like my response here, or on your alternate thread?

 

[patrick jane]

I believe in the Big Bang.

God said it, and BANG! It happened. Honestly, the only issue with the Big Bang theory is that atheists have added onto it, saying that before the Big Bang, the entire universe was a pre-existing infinitely compacted mass (which makes no sense, nor is there data for).

Do you believe in evolution too?

 

[patrick jane]

Would you like my response here, or on your alternate thread?

DFT Dave has a thread called The earth is flat and we never went to the moon. I have one called Conspiracy: are some theories accurate? Either one. For all science and nasa data, please go to those or start a new one.

 

[jsanford108]

No more science and math in this thread. Dave's thread and the Conspiracy Thread are available for that.

This thread is Biblical and in the religion forum, as per the OP. Anyone can start there own math and science thread and I will debate it there. If it's not in the Bible or your interpretation of the Bible, don't put it in this thread. @Lon @jsanford108 - Please don't even reply to this post. @User Name

In my defense, I have been trying to keep from posting data; however, many of your videos are full of "data," not related to Biblical evidence or accounts. So, while I am trying to remain confined to the principles that you set up initially, it is quite difficult when you are posting "debunking" videos, where non-biblical data is presented.

 

[jsanford108]

DFT Dave has a thread called The earth is flat and we never went to the moon. I have one called Conspiracy: are some theories accurate? Either one.

I shall find the video on your thread and talk it about it there. Thanks, Sir PJ the Great.

 

[Right Divider]

Sunrises and sunsets do not make earth a ball, flying and spinning through infinite space at millions of miles per hour.

I enjoy how you need to add "infinite space", etc. etc. It shows the frantic and contrived nature of your opposition.

Sun rises and sun sets to not happen on a flat earth where a sun constantly circles above it at 3000 miles.

No scripture supports that IMO, and we do have scriptures describing the earth and "space". The rises and settings are explained beautifully and scientifically on other flat earth threads here.

No they are not. They are all silly and wrong. Perspective is NOT an explanation and you've fallen for the bluff.
View attachment 26166
The sun cannot "set" when it is still 9 degrees above the horizon from the farthest possible observer.

 

[patrick jane]

I enjoy how you need to add "infinite space", etc. etc. It shows the frantic and contrived nature of your opposition.

Sun rises and sun sets to not happen on a flat earth where a sun constantly circles above it at 3000 miles.


No they are not. They are all silly and wrong. Perspective is NOT an explanation and you've fallen for the bluff.
View attachment 26166
The sun cannot "set" when it is still 9 degrees above the horizon from the farthest possible observer.

:yawn: Yeah, RD I'm frantic. You're pretty good with adjectives.

 

[Derf]

When the Bible speaks of a face in terms of the earth, does that imply "flatness" or flattish?

I'd say "no". Is not the word for "face" most recognizably from what we call the front of our non-flat heads?

Here's the KJV Bible definition of the word face.


http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/face.html
[h=1]KJV Dictionary Definition: face[/h][h=3]face[/h]FACE, n. L., to make.
1. In a general sense, the surface of a thing, or the side which presents itself to the view of a spectator; as the face of the earth; the face of the waters.
2. A part of the surface of a thing; or the plane surface of a solid. Thus, a cube or die has six faces an octahedron has eight faces.
3. The surface of the fore part of an animals head, particularly of the human head; the visage.
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread. Genesis 3.
Joseph bowed himself with his face to the earth. Genesis 48.
4. Countenance; cast of features; look; air of the face.
We set the best face on it we could.
5. The front of a thing; the forepart; the flat surface that presents itself first to view; as the face of a house. Ezekiel 41.
6. Visible state; appearance.
This would produce a new face of things in Europe.
7. Appearance; look.
Nor heaven, nor sea, their former face retained.
His dialogue has the face of probability.
8. State of confrontation. The witnesses were presented face to face.
9. Confidence; boldness; impudence; a bold front.
He has the face to charge others with false citations.
10. Presence; sight; as in the phrases, before the face, in the face, to the face, from the face.
11. The person.
I had not thought to see thy face. Genesis 48.
12. In scripture, face is used for anger or favor.


Genesis 6:1 KJV - [FONT="]And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana]My words here: Was geometry around 6000 years ago? A "Face" in geometry refers to a plane also.

[FONT=arial]n solid [/FONT][B]geometry, a [B]face is a flat (planar) [B]surface that forms part of the boundary of a solid object; a three-dimensional solid bounded exclusively by flat [B]faces is a polyhedron.
[/B][/B][/B][/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
[h=3][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(geometry)"]Face (geometry) - Wikipedia[/URL][/h]

I like the term "facet" for a solid object's flat, 2-dimensional sides--like the cuts on a diamond. But "facet" comes from the same root as "face".

I don't know if "geometry" as a mental discipline was around 6000 years ago, but "geometry" the word comes from two greek words meaning "earth measurement". The most famous Greek geometrist was Euclid, who is considered the "father of plane geometry". One source I read stated that his geometry came from efforts to measure the land, like surveying.

But once the principles were laid down (Euclid's The Elements), they were used almost immediately to estimate the size of the earth's globe (meaning they thought that is was a globe), by Eratosthenes around 240 BC. If that's not "earth measuring", I don't know what is!

Is geometry used in the bible? Maybe. Noah likely needed to use some form of it for building the Ark. And Moses needed it for building his Ark (of the covenant) as well as other items for the tabernacle. Joshua might have needed it to divide up the land of Canaan between the 12 tribes. There's one particular passage where the tub that Solomon had made for water rituals in the temple is described in such a way that it might give us an estimation for the value of pi--1 Kings 7:23. And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: [it was] round all about, and his height [was] five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. You can see that the diameter of 10 cubits times 3 (~pi) gives the value of the circumference.

 

[jsanford108]

Do you believe in evolution too?

No. Evolutionary Theory is debunked by natural evidence. The existing evidence, which debunks Evolutionary theory, strongly supports the Genesis account, as well.

While I would say that some evolutionary concepts are true, such as adaptation, the theory of Darwinism is strongly false and promoted due to preferential ignorance.

The Big Bang theory was actually proposed as a theory by a Christian, while in discussion with an atheist. The atheist, making fun of the theory called it "like a Big Bang?" And the Christian replied, "yes." The Big Bang does not propose any alternate theory for the inception of life, other than that found in the Scriptures. The Big Bang also has nothing existing before the "bang," as only God existed.

 

[patrick jane]

No. Evolutionary Theory is debunked by natural evidence. The existing evidence, which debunks Evolutionary theory, strongly supports the Genesis account, as well.

While I would say that some evolutionary concepts are true, such as adaptation, the theory of Darwinism is strongly false and promoted due to preferential ignorance.

The Big Bang theory was actually proposed as a theory by a Christian, while in discussion with an atheist. The atheist, making fun of the theory called it "like a Big Bang?" And the Christian replied, "yes." The Big Bang does not propose any alternate theory for the inception of life, other than that found in the Scriptures. The Big Bang also has nothing existing before the "bang," as only God existed.

I'd prefer no big bang stuff here on this thread. I get what you're saying.

 

[patrick jane]

Is geometry used in the bible? Maybe. Noah likely needed to use some form of it for building the Ark. And Moses needed it for building his Ark (of the covenant) as well as other items for the tabernacle. Joshua might have needed it to divide up the land of Canaan between the 12 tribes. There's one particular passage where the tub that Solomon had made for water rituals in the temple is described in such a way that it might give us an estimation for the value of pi--1 Kings 7:23. And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: [it was] round all about, and his height [was] five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. You can see that the diameter of 10 cubits times 3 (~pi) gives the value of the circumference.

Geometry wasn't around until a long time after Jesus Christ. With that verse, it shows that perhaps God knows which words He uses and He could have described earth as "round all about" at some point in Genesis or later in the Bible.

1 Kings 7:23 KJV - And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

 

[Derf]

What description does scripture give of the earth?

Here are a couple:
[Gen 1:2 KJV]
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[Gen 1:31 KJV]
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So at first the earth was without form. Is "flat" a "form"? Is "sphere" a "form"? If so, then it seems like the earth started as neither flat nor sphere. Or maybe it just means there weren't any distinguishing characteristics.

By the time He was finished, however, the earth is described as "very good".

But what about the "face of the waters" comment? Does that give us a clue? YES, especially when you realize that the firmament and land were not created yet (or at least not revealed above the waters).

So, before the waters were separated 1. by the firmament (Gen 1:6) and 2. by the land (Gen 1:9), what kept the waters on the flat earth?

 

[Derf]

The words is ordained.

But even if you want to be adamant about place, a place can also be a route or course...

Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

I don't have a problem with "route" or "course", but that's only implied. And if such words can be used for the stars and the moon, where "fixed" or "stablished" or "secure" or "firmly established" can be applied to stars that move, then they could just as easily be applied similarly to an earth that moves. So thanks for confirming my point.

Outline of Biblical Usage (from blb.org) to be firm, be stable, be established (Niphal) to be set up, be established, be fixed to be firmly established to be established, be stable, be secure, be enduring to be fixed, be securely determined to be directed aright, be fixed aright, be steadfast (moral sense) to prepare, be ready to be prepared, be arranged, be settled (Hiphil) to establish, set up, accomplish, do, make firm to fix, make ready, prepare, provide, provide for, furnish to direct toward (moral sense) to arrange, order (Hophal) to be established, be fastened to be prepared, be ready (Polel) to set up, establish to constitute, make to fix to direct (Pulal) to be established, be prepared (Hithpolel) to be established, be restored

 

[Derf]

Geometry wasn't around until a long time after Jesus Christ.

???
Didn't I just give dates for geometry preceding Jesus Christ? That's what the "BC" means in "240 BC".

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Job 26:7 - He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Here's one that the globe folks thinks disproves a flat earth.

But if we see the north as the center, God stretched it out.

He also hangs the earth on nothing.

The only time the earth hangs on nothing is when it's blowing in the wind.

Maybe think dust storm?

Giant curtain of dirt?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I don't have a problem with "route" or "course", but that's only implied. And if such words can be used for the stars and the moon, where "fixed" or "stablished" or "secure" or "firmly established" can be applied to stars that move, then they could just as easily be applied similarly to an earth that moves. So thanks for confirming my point.

Outline of Biblical Usage (from blb.org) to be firm, be stable, be established (Niphal) to be set up, be established, be fixed to be firmly established to be established, be stable, be secure, be enduring to be fixed, be securely determined to be directed aright, be fixed aright, be steadfast (moral sense) to prepare, be ready to be prepared, be arranged, be settled (Hiphil) to establish, set up, accomplish, do, make firm to fix, make ready, prepare, provide, provide for, furnish to direct toward (moral sense) to arrange, order (Hophal) to be established, be fastened to be prepared, be ready (Polel) to set up, establish to constitute, make to fix to direct (Pulal) to be established, be prepared (Hithpolel) to be established, be restored

Context friend.

The sun has a course and circuit to run.

Where are we told the earth does?