Before Time Began?!

[Clete]

I've often thought to myself, "I could make stronger arguments against my own doctrine than I've ever seen anyone make on Theology Online!" and, in fact, I'm sure I've even said so in a post here and there over the years, but I've always avoided doing so because I don't like the idea of handing ammunition to my opposition and I still feel that way but since there's not really any substantive opposition hanging around on TOL lately, I thought I'd risk it and start a thread intended to think through something Paul said to Timothy....

II Timothy 1:8 Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.​

In the above sentence, the phrase "before time began" is translated, in the New King James, from the Greek "pro chronos aiōnios".

pro: before
chronos: time
aiōnios: without beginning or end
(Click the Greek words for the full Strong's Concordance entry)

It's the word "aiōnios" that I think makes the NKJV translation here incorrect but I think its pretty obvious that anyone who wanted to could make a reasonable argument in favor of God's existence outside of time based on this verse. It is actually quite beyond belief that no one here has ever brought this verse up in all the lengthy debates I've had on the issue over the years. Which is to say that I don't recall anyone having ever done so.

There are plenty of passages to compare II Timothy 1:9 with but I thought I'd leave all that sort of thing to all of you. I'm interested to see how you all would respond to this verse if someone were to try to use it to say that God exists outside of time or that time had a beginning or whatever.

Ready - Go!

 

[Idolater]

Good stuff Clete.

 

[JudgeRightly]

since there's not really any substantive opposition hanging around on TOL lately, I thought I'd risk it and start a thread intended to think through something Paul said to Timothy....

II Timothy 1:8 Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.​

In the above sentence, the phrase "before time began" is translated, in the New King James, from the Greek "pro chronos aiōnios".

Actually, it's not. It's translated that way because of the bias of the translators towards Augustine and his commitment to Greek Philosophy.

pro: before
chronos: time
aiōnios: without beginning or end
(Click the Greek words for the full Strong's Concordance entry)

"PRO" does indeed mean "before".

However, "CHRONOS" is not singular "time" but plural "times," and "AIONIOS" is a plural adjective "age-long."

A better translation of this verse would be "before the times of the ages," (as Young's Literal Translation has it) or more literally, "before the times age-long."

In other words:

Before our current series of ages, God's own grace was given to us in Christ Jesus (ie, anyone who puts his faith in Christ).

In other words:

When God created was when history started being recorded, and subsequently, there have been ages, distinct periods of history. God's own grace was assigned to the group "us in Him" before those times, aka, "before the times of the ages," aka, "before the times age-long."

It's the word "aiōnios" that I think makes the NKJV translation here incorrect

Agreed.

but I think its pretty obvious that anyone who wanted to could make a reasonable argument in favor of God's existence outside of time based on this verse.

Only if they stick to using the English translation. But one needs to remember that the Bible wasn't written in English, it was written in Hebrew and Greek with some Aramaic, and the idea that God exists outside of time is not only illogical, but also contrary to the rest of Scripture, so the argument falls flat on its face before it even leaves the starting gate.

It is actually quite beyond belief that no one here has ever brought this verse up in all the lengthy debates I've had on the issue over the years. Which is to say that I don't recall anyone having ever done so.

I've used it a few times, in favor of God being IN time, not outside of it, and it's usually because the person quoting it is doing exactly what I just said, sticking to the English translation and ignoring what the Greek says. (The user "Gods Truth" comes to mind, for example.)

 

[Clete]

I've used it a few times, in favor of God being IN time, not outside of it, and it's usually because the person quoting it is doing exactly what I just said, sticking to the English translation and ignoring what the Greek says. (The user "Gods Truth" comes to mind, for example.)

Well, of course, I agree with every syllable of your post so don't have much to contribute to the discussion except to say, in response to the above sentence, that I'm glad that I was never sucked into King James Onlyism or any other line of thought that didn't emphasize the importance of the original Greek and Hebrew texts. If we didn't have them, Christianity would be a hopeless mess of irrational nonsense by now.

 

[Idolater]

I've often thought to myself, "I could make stronger arguments against my own doctrine than I've ever seen anyone make on Theology Online!" and, in fact, I'm sure I've even said so in a post here and there over the years, but I've always avoided doing so because I don't like the idea of handing ammunition to my opposition and I still feel that way but since there's not really any substantive opposition hanging around on TOL lately, I thought I'd risk it and start a thread intended to think through something Paul said to Timothy....

II Timothy 1:8 Therefore, do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.​

In the above sentence, the phrase "before time began" is translated, in the New King James, from the Greek "pro chronos aiōnios".

pro: before
chronos: time
aiōnios: without beginning or end
(Click the Greek words for the full Strong's Concordance entry)

It's the word "aiōnios" that I think makes the NKJV translation here incorrect but I think its pretty obvious that anyone who wanted to could make a reasonable argument in favor of God's existence outside of time based on this verse. It is actually quite beyond belief that no one here has ever brought this verse up in all the lengthy debates I've had on the issue over the years. Which is to say that I don't recall anyone having ever done so.

There are plenty of passages to compare II Timothy 1:9 with but I thought I'd leave all that sort of thing to all of you. I'm interested to see how you all would respond to this verse if someone were to try to use it to say that God exists outside of time or that time had a beginning or whatever.

Ready - Go!

Most conservatively I'd say it means that there was a time before God created the universe. In such case it's basically "before time began," which is kind of a metonym for before the universe was created, which basically just means the foundation of the world, which is a phrase used numerous times in the New Testament. So it could just be another case of the Bible saying, "before and or at the foundation of the world," but Paul here used a more figurative phrase to indicate the same thing that in other places is just called the foundation of the world and or cosmos.

 

[Right Divider]

Well, of course, I agree with every syllable of your post so don't have much to contribute to the discussion except to say, in response to the above sentence, that I'm glad that I was never sucked into King James Onlyism or any other line of thought that didn't emphasize the importance of the original Greek and Hebrew texts. If we didn't have them, Christianity would be a hopeless mess of irrational nonsense by now.

We have the original Greek and Hebrew texts? Why didn't you say so?
We don't have the original Greek and Hebrew texts, we have copies.

 

[Clete]

We have the original Greek and Hebrew texts? Why didn't you say so?
We don't have the original Greek and Hebrew texts, we have copies.

Yes, yes, of course, not the original autographs but we do have the text of scripture in the original languages, which was my point.

 

[Clete]

Most conservatively I'd say it means that there was a time before God created the universe. In such case it's basically "before time began," which is kind of a metonym for before the universe was created, which basically just means the foundation of the world, which is a phrase used numerous times in the New Testament. So it could just be another case of the Bible saying, "before and or at the foundation of the world," but Paul here used a more figurative phrase to indicate the same thing that in other places is just called the foundation of the world and or cosmos.

That doesn't sound all that "conservative" to me. You're basically suggesting that Paul was using sort of loose language and that the phrase is effectively a figure of speech.

I don't mean to suggest that I reject the idea of figures of speech being used in the bible but the conservative in me wants some objective reason to assume that such a figure of speech exists. It seems to me that it isn't a figure of speech but rather a simple incorrect translation.

 

[Idolater]

That doesn't sound all that "conservative" to me. You're basically suggesting that Paul was using sort of loose language and that the phrase is effectively a figure of speech.

I don't mean to suggest that I reject the idea of figures of speech being used in the bible but the conservative in me wants some objective reason to assume that such a figure of speech exists. It seems to me that it isn't a figure of speech but rather a simple incorrect translation.

I mean another Biblical phrase meaning basically the same thing is John 1:1 "In the beginning," right? The foundation of the world, in the beginning, and maybe, here in the OP's passage, before time began. Maybe they are all just basically parallelisms and mean the same thing, meaning they are synonyms and all denote the same thing.

But let's say that's incorrect, for the sake of argument: "Pro chronos aionios" means something unique, probably in all Scripture since this phrase doesn't appear again. Pro, before; chronos, time; aionios ... what's that one mean again? Oh yeah, kind of, eternal, everlasting, your OP says, without beginning or end.

Before, time ... eternity? Or, before eternal time? I'm assuming time is the noun and "before" is a preposition and ... "eternal" and or "everlasting," is a predicate /adjunct /adjective, right? iow I don't see how "eternity" would be modified by time ("chronological eternity?" I don't think so). So aionios must be referring to time, right? It can't refer to "before," that doesn't make any sense either ("eternally before?" again I don't think so).

So "Before Time Began" maybe not. Maybe "Before Time-Without-End?" I don't really know what that would mean, if, it doesn't just mean what I suggested above, that it basically means, "Before 'In the Beginning'" or "Before the foundation of the world."

 

[JudgeRightly]

But let's say that's incorrect, for the sake of argument: "Pro chronos aionios" means something unique, probably in all Scripture since this phrase doesn't appear again.

Yes, it does appear again, literally in the next book, Titus:

Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; - Titus 1:1-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus1:1-3&version=NKJV

Same phrase, even in the Greek.

Pro, before; chronos, time; aionios ... what's that one mean again? Oh yeah, kind of, eternal, everlasting, your OP says, without beginning or end.

It means "age-long."

Also, to correct what I said above, it's not "CHRONOS" that's used, which is the base word, but rather "CHRONON," which is the plural form of the word.

Before, time ... eternity? Or, before eternal time? I'm assuming time is the noun and "before" is a preposition and ... "eternal" and or "everlasting," is a predicate /adjunct /adjective, right? iow I don't see how "eternity" would be modified by time ("chronological eternity?" I don't think so). So aionios must be referring to time, right? It can't refer to "before," that doesn't make any sense either ("eternally before?" again I don't think so).

So "Before Time Began" maybe not. Maybe "Before Time-Without-End?" I don't really know what that would mean, if, it doesn't just mean what I suggested above, that it basically means, "Before 'In the Beginning'" or "Before the foundation of the world."

Rather:

PRO CHRONON AIONION
preposition. noun (plural). adjective (plural).

AIONION is modifying CHRONON.

As I said above, a much better translation is "before the times of the ages," or more literally, "before times age-long."

 

[Idolater]

Yes, it does appear again, literally in the next book, Titus:

Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; - Titus 1:1-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus1:1-3&version=NKJV

Same phrase, even in the Greek.

Wow and you have that same Strong's 166 word in Titus 1:2 twice
"in hope of eternal life" which is elpidi zoes aioniou, and
"before time began" which here is pro chronon aionion

Word 166 modifies first "life," and then "time." Life eternal, and then time eternal.

So life eternal is compared with time eternal. We hope for life eternal, because God promised life eternal before time eternal.

It means "age-long."

Also, to correct what I said above, it's not "CHRONOS" that's used, which is the base word, but rather "CHRONON," which is the plural form of the word.



Rather:

PRO CHRONON AIONION
preposition. noun (plural). adjective (plural).

AIONION is modifying CHRONON.

As I said above, a much better translation is "before the times of the ages," or more literally, "before times age-long."

"Before the times of the ages" and "Before times age-long" don't speak to me. I don't understand what they mean. I don't understand what "Before time began" means either so don't feel bad.

 

[JudgeRightly]

"Before the times of the ages" and "Before times age-long" don't speak to me. I don't understand what they mean.

See post #3 where I explained it.

I don't understand what "Before time began" means either so don't feel bad.

No one can, because it's irrational. You cannot have "before" time, because "before" is a time word, and only has meaning in the context of time. In other words, time is a prerequisite of creation, ergo, time cannot have been created,

 

[Derf]

You cannot have "before" time, because "before" is a time word, and only has meaning in the context of time. In other words, time is a prerequisite of creation, ergo, time cannot have been created,

Well said!

 

[Idolater]

See post #3 where I explained it.

I did. My post stands. None of it means anything to me.

No one can, because it's irrational. You cannot have "before" time, because "before" is a time word, and only has meaning in the context of time.

So, like a verb then? Like how every verb is also a "time word" according to your view? Because verbs also only have meaning in the context of time?

In other words, time is a prerequisite of creation, ergo, time cannot have been created,

Begging the question.

 

[Clete]

Yes, it does appear again, literally in the next book, Titus:

Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior; - Titus 1:1-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus1:1-3&version=NKJV

Same phrase, even in the Greek.



It means "age-long."

Also, to correct what I said above, it's not "CHRONOS" that's used, which is the base word, but rather "CHRONON," which is the plural form of the word.



Rather:

PRO CHRONON AIONION
preposition. noun (plural). adjective (plural).

AIONION is modifying CHRONON.

As I said above, a much better translation is "before the times of the ages," or more literally, "before times age-long."

So, in so far as translating this phrase goes, I find myself in agreement with Idolater here. What good does it do to translate something into a language if it doesn't make sense to the people who use that language every day? I'm reminded of "word" being used as a translation for "logos" in John chapter one. It isn't a completely wrong translation but it fails to convey any meaning to the English reader. The idea behind language is that words and phrases mean things. They convey ideas and if a translation fails to convey the proper idea, then it isn't a good translation and as such "before times age-long" definitely doesn't get the job done.

"Before the times of the ages" is better. It is, at least, a normally constructed English phrase but I feel like it could be done better, although, I admit that I have nothing better to offer and that you clearly know the Greek FAR better than I do.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I did. My post stands. None of it means anything to me.

That's on you, then. But I've tried again to make it easier to understand below.

So, like a verb then? Like how every verb is also a "time word" according to your view? Because verbs also only have meaning in the context of time?

Sure, it's similar, at least.

Begging the question.

It's not.

So, in so far as translating this phrase goes, I find myself in agreement with Idolater here. What good does it do to translate something into a language if it doesn't make sense to the people who use that language every day? I'm reminded of "word" being used as a translation for "logos" in John chapter one. It isn't a completely wrong translation but it fails to convey any meaning to the English reader. The idea behind language is that words and phrases mean things. They convey ideas and if a translation fails to convey the proper idea, then it isn't a good translation and as such "before times age-long" definitely doesn't get the job done.

Sure it does.

"Times age-long" means something, since words and phrases mean things, as you correctly say.

Perhaps putting the adjective before the noun it describes will help?

"before [the] age-long times"

An "age" is generally considered to be a long period of time, but not infinite.

Here is a relevant definition from Google:



"a distinct period of history"

And informally: "a very long time," similarly, "seemingly forever"

"-long" is a suffix added to nouns that means "for the duration of." For example, a "lifelong relationship" is one that lasts an entire lifetime.

Similarly, "age-long" describes something that is as long as an age.

"Times" means "a more or less definite portion of time in history or characterized by particular events or circumstances."

In the context of the verses under the microscope, "times age-long" (or "age-long times") is referring to (if taken woodenly literally) "times" that are as long as an age, or, if taken how normal people speak, it's referring to the entire history of the Creation, which is comprised of many ages.

Or, as you point out, "the times of the ages" describes exactly what I said here, but more concisely.

Let me see if I can explain it this way, to give you the big-picture:

Currently, we are in "the times of the ages."

After Christ returns and reigns for a thousand years, and after the New Jerusalem descends, AKA, "the rest of eternity," THAT is "after the times of the ages."

And so, "before the times of the ages" refers to before God created and in doing so began the "times of the ages." It's the infinity prior to Creation, where there was no need to measure "time."

"Before the times of the ages" is better.

Agreed. I'm just pointing out that "before times age-long" is the literal translation.

"Before the times of the ages" is better considering the method for translating the NKJV.

It is, at least, a normally constructed English phrase but I feel like it could be done better, although, I admit that I have nothing better to offer and that you clearly know the Greek FAR better than I do.

Here's a hint: I've never studied Greek.

I just use an interlinear Hebrew/Greek and English app.

Hebrew/Greek Interlinear Bible - Apps on Google Play

This HGI Bible has a lexicon, concordance (word search), Strongs and morphology.

play.google.com

 

[Clete]

That's on you, then. But I've tried again to make it easier to understand below.



Sure, it's similar, at least.



It's not.



Sure it does.

"Times age-long" means something, since words and phrases mean things, as you correctly say.

Perhaps putting the adjective before the noun it describes will help?

"before [the] age-long times"

An "age" is generally considered to be a long period of time, but not infinite.

Here is a relevant definition from Google:

View attachment 4618

"a distinct period of history"

And informally: "a very long time," similarly, "seemingly forever"

"-long" is a suffix added to nouns that means "for the duration of." For example, a "lifelong relationship" is one that lasts an entire lifetime.

Similarly, "age-long" describes something that is as long as an age.

"Times" means "a more or less definite portion of time in history or characterized by particular events or circumstances."

In the context of the verses under the microscope, "times age-long" (or "age-long times") is referring to (if taken woodenly literally) "times" that are as long as an age, or, if taken how normal people speak, it's referring to the entire history of the Creation, which is comprised of many ages.

Or, as you point out, "the times of the ages" describes exactly what I said here, but more concisely.

Let me see if I can explain it this way, to give you the big-picture:

Currently, we are in "the times of the ages."

After Christ returns and reigns for a thousand years, and after the New Jerusalem descends, AKA, "the rest of eternity," THAT is "after the times of the ages."

And so, "before the times of the ages" refers to before God created and in doing so began the "times of the ages." It's the infinity prior to Creation, where there was no need to measure "time."



Agreed. I'm just pointing out that "before times age-long" is the literal translation.

"Before the times of the ages" is better considering the method for translating the NKJV.



Here's a hint: I've never studied Greek.

I just use an interlinear Hebrew/Greek and English app.

Hebrew/Greek Interlinear Bible - Apps on Google Play

This HGI Bible has a lexicon, concordance (word search), Strongs and morphology.

play.google.com

Which word in the Greek means "age"?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Which word in the Greek means "age"?

G165
AION

 

[Clete]

G165
AION

I agree.

Aion is a word related to aionios (G166) but are you suggesting that they are synonyms?

If not, and your translation is correct, why didn't Paul use 'aion' instead of 'aionios'?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I agree.

Aion is a word related to aionios (G166) but are you suggesting that they are synonyms?

Not synonyms, no. AION is the root word for AIONION.

If not, and your translation is correct, why didn't Paul use 'aion' instead of 'aionios'?

Because AION is a noun, AIONION is an adjective.