BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 8 thru 10)

[lee_merrill]

Hi Pat,

Pat: "They" cannot refer to Tyre, because it is not a first person pronoun that agrees with the rest of the sentence. Thus, "They" refers to "nations."

Yes, agreed!

"His" refers, as already addressed, to Nebuchadnezzar. It is Nebuchadnezzar's horses "covering Tyre with dust."

Agreed again...

we see group of people, "horsemen and wagons and chariots," all these are good candidates for the pronoun they. It is much better than "many nations" because the antecedent is close to its pronoun. Many nations is "too far" away to work for this pronoun.

Well, that was the whole point of my example with the Marines! We can't always pick the closest possible noun that could fit a pronoun, more care is needed, it's not so simple as that. For instance! "That" in my previous sentence does not refer to "care," though that's the nearest noun that could fit.

But what I would point out is this part:

Ezekiel 26:3-4 ... therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers.

Now clearly "they" here refers to "many nations," and since Babylon is always referred to as a singular nation, this prophecy was thus to be fulfilled by more than Neb's army. And thus also "they" in verse 12 could also refer to the previous usage of they, as in many nations, or it might also refer to just Neb and his army, I think I could live with either interpretation.

But clearly in verses 3 and 4, we have more than the army of Babylon...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[RobE]

My whole point was if God could see the future, that kills freewill. You affirmed that a few times, unknowingly I think, because it looked as if some of my arguments were my own beliefs, but instead they were other's beliefs and which lead to why they were wrong.

Seeing the future(foresight) does not kill freewill. Pre-arranging the future(foreordination) does kill freewill.

I hope you know that I agree that we need freewill, and from the very begining, I have said that no freewill means no love from God, and no love back to him. This is why freewill is important.

But at the same time, creating something with the absolute knowledge of the evil it would become is the belief you, bling, and lee seem to uphold. I submit that God didn't absolutely know what would happen because the future is open, and created us out of hope for the best.

He created us to love Him through our free choice.

The one point I have to say about the 100% foreknowledge is that God knew exactly what direction his creation would go in as it was created. That means he saw all freewill choices, and the choices that made them turn out as they did, and all the various roads people would go down with 100% perfection. He knew how a small change here, and a small change there would effect those paths.

God doesn't do anything half-hazzard. It is with reason, and wisdom. So God if God knew the future, and the endless possibilities little changes here or there would cause on future events, he would have created man with all those possibilities in mind. Every little aspect of the first man would have a great chain reaction on all man, and even though he had freewill, his actions would have been provoked by his very creation, his very environment, and would lead to what we have today because of the design he chose.

If anyone believes God knows 100% of the future, that person unwittingly believes that God chose a design for man that would lead to his fall. Even though he had "freewill" the obstacles God created in his very soul, his very mind, his very body, and the things around him, would all play a part in his fall with certainty.

God did design us to fall: GEN 3:16

But if you take 100% future knowledge out, and understand that God can't see past the choices we will make because that is unknowable even to us, then and only then is Adam truly free to choose God or sin.

This is wrong because seeing is not pre-arranging. His choice remained free.

Realize, it's how we get up that God is interested in.

Rob

 

[patman]

For RobE, and a little for Bling

For RobE, and a little for Bling

RobE, thanks for coming out and saying it. I don't think any S.V. has done that yet, but you painted the exact point that most S.V. stand for. That we were created to fall. All O.V. folks I know look at that traditional S.V. idea and reject that God would do such a thing, and scratch our heads as to why S.V. followers are so happy to believe it.

Think about the symbol of Evil. Satan himself. It stands to reason he was designed to fall as well, along with the large number of angels that went with him. That stands to reason that a hand select few were designed not to fall. And all humans fall, so basically only a few don't get the "privilege". As I type all this, I can't help by being angry at the idea, to think that God designed all this stuff to happen.

You said that in one simple sentence "God did design us to fall: GEN 3:16." And at the same time you say we are have freewill? Or do you mean you and I have freewill, but Adam and Eve did not, as they were designed to fall? At least for Adam and Eve, freewill was not an option for one event. All those other free choices they were making could have been there, all except for this one, as they were "designed" to eat the tree, according to the logical conclusion to your belief.

So, if we were designed to fall, God planned that he would make one rule, "don't eat that fruit," designed man to eat it not matter what, and then punished man for doing it? Gave women this awful pain in birth, made man work his life away, and then punished the snake, who was also designed to fall, all out of justice.... No. That isn't justice. If God designed us to fall, God initiated the process, thus God made it happen!

Oh, I am forgetting, along with the punishment, God gave them grace through Jesus. So that makes it all alright that God can punish a creation for doing something he had no control over, and then give him a choice to follow his son or not, and then if he chooses not, punish him some more.... That is despicable, Rob. Every agnostic I ever spoken with realizes this ends and questions why they should follow a God who could do this. I only wish I knew then what I know now that I might show them it isn't that way at all, because we are not designed to fall, contrary to what you say.

2/3 of the angels in Heaven made a choice to follow God. 1/3 fell with Satan. So that is 2/3 of the angels who never knew sin, to this very day. That means Angels like Michael to this day are perfect, and have not given in to temptation. If God is so keen on his creation knowing/doing sin that they might know what real love is, why not make them all fall?

Perhaps the Angels in heaven choose not to fall. Perhaps Adam had the same choice, and suppose he didn't fall, and thousands of years later men followed Adam's example. Then one day one when there were thousands of humans one guy falls, and takes 1/3 of the humans with him. Why is that so hard to imagine as a possibility? It happened to one set of God's creation, why not man? Your answer is "we were designed to fall." As if having every human being in existence as sinners was such a good idea.

Undoubtedly, the reasoning for such a belief would be that it was a "good idea" because God could see the future, and has a plan for it all along as it being the "best direction." After all, we want God to be in control of EVERYTHING so bad that he has to be the one who caused the first sin too. (And yes, he did cause it if he designed Adam and Eve to do it.) That is why you think it is "OK" I suppose.

This is why I say that if God destined man to fall if he had 100% future knowledge. Every S.V. adheres to it, they all see the same logical ends to the means: "All this happened for a reason and that means it was caused for a reason also."

You may say that you believe it because the Bible says this or that. Regardless it should be obvious that it is impossible to even conceive of as happening if God didn't know the future. The path of believing God knows the future leads to this very place, that God caused the first sin by designing Adam and Eve and Satan to all fall, thus they did not have a free decision as they were designed to take the fall. I would think anyone, S.V. or O.V. would turn away from that, but some S.V.'ers don't. No O.V. mindset allows for this.

If God didn't know the future, and if God didn't design man to fall, the fall happened as chance. God, however, being wise, loving and planning for the just in case, made a way for those who fall to have a way back, even though they didn't deserve it. Then it didn't matter who fell, Adam, Bob, Ann, Sue, Yu, Mi, or whoever, those people fell as their own choice, and having a loving God, had a way back too.

It is the best way to say "God didn't cause all this to happen" as he didn't foresee it happening. Which I say, but doesn't seem to matter to you because you already believe that God did cause it. Not in so many words, but that's what you are saying. If we were designed to sin, the designer is the one who did the designing, thus causing the sin.

It is the worst thing to say about God I can imagine. It gives reason for all the songs and thoughts people think to resent God... because if God did cause sin, then punish the sinners for doing it, and then punish the sinners who reject the way back even more with a second death, all while knowing in advance that this would happen, I can see why they would be resentful.

Here is a songs I have heard that echo the results of what the belief in God's future knowledge cause in the hearts of unbelievers:

Modest Mouse - Bukowski Lyrics(Exert)
If God takes life, he's an Indian giver.
So tell me now why, you'll tell me never.
Who would wanna be?
Who would wanna be such a control freak?
Well who would wanna be?
Who would wanna be such a control freak?

Well see what you wanna see. You should see it all.
Well take what you want from me. You deserve it all.
Nine times out of ten our hearts just get dissolved.
Well I want a better place or just a better way to fall.

But one time out of ten, everything is perfect for us all.
Well I want a better place or just a better way to fall.
Here we go!

If God controls the land and disease,
keeps a watchful eye on me,
If he's really so d### mighty,
my problem is I can't see,
well who would wanna be?
Who would wanna be such a control freak?
Well who would wanna be?
Who would wanna be such a control freak?

Why do you think these people think this? If they were not going to follow God, I would want them to reject for real reasons, not reasons based on an S.V. aspect. They understand perfectly the ends to the belief that God caused us to fall. And then they look at us christians and wonder why we would follow God, and why we think he deserves praise. Some of the S.V. conclusion is that we were better off falling, but Modest Mouse puts it well, 9 times out of 10, things are worst, and 1 time out of 10, something good comes out of it all.

This world is full of more evil that anyone can ever know. So many people hurting from this initial fall designed by God, so many people suffering from sin. And the S.V. says it is a part of the plan, or it was designed to be this way. And they claim this because God is in control!!! They want that more than anything, more than his grace, more than his love, more than their neighbor's eternal soul to be in heaven the want God to be in total control. This is not the message of the Bible.

That God designed the fall along with 100% future knowledge means he foresaw what happened, and was Ok with it. For God to simply have 100% future knowledge along with the 9 times out of 10 things are bad here means he created it anyway and was OK with that outcome, thus he caused it to exist.

But God isn't OK with this.

Gen 6
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

How can God be sorry he made us if he looked in the future at creation and saw Gen 6 happening and not be sorry then like he is in the future? It is a paradox. The answer is there was no future knowledge as to the flood at creation. It hadn't happened yet, and thus was unknowable.

God does not seem certian as to the people's future freewill choice to follow him here:

Jer 26:3
Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.

How could God know it for Adam and Eve? The only way is as you said, he designed them to fall. OR, he just didn't know.

Did God create really create us to fall? Think about Satan, the symbol of Evil, if God created him perfect, would he be created to fall? For how can a creation be perfect if it were designed to fall?

Ezekiel 28 (it's talking about Tyre and Satan at the same time)
“12... You were the seal of perfection,
******Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
****** 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
******Every precious stone was your covering:
******The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
******Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
******Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
******The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
******Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
****** 14 “ You were the anointed cherub who covers;
******I established you;
******You were on the holy mountain of God;
******You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
****** 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
******Till iniquity was found in you.
****** 16 “ By the abundance of your trading
******You became filled with violence within,
******And you sinned;
******Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
******Out of the mountain of God;
******And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
******From the midst of the fiery stones.
****** 17 “ Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
******You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
******I cast you to the ground,
******I laid you before kings,
******That they might gaze at you.
****** 18 “ You defiled your sanctuaries
******By the multitude of your iniquities,
******By the iniquity of your trading;
******Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
******It devoured you,
******And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
******In the sight of all who saw you.
****** 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
******You have become a horror,
******And shall be no more forever.”’”

Satan wasn't designed to sin. He became a sinner. It is so clear in this passage. For he was the Seal of perfection! The Seal of it! God wouldn't say someone was the seal of perfection when they were designed to sin.

He was perfect from the day he was created, until he became evil by pride and by "trade"(Tyre rejoiced as Israel fell, Satan must have done the same at the trading of his heavenly place for his own on earth as he and other angels fell).

Notice that God puts the blame on Satan for his fall. For he was the one who corrupted himself for the sake of his splendor, not God by designing him to fall. God never said anywhere that he caused someone to fall by design. Not even Satan, yet you say we were designed to fall?

If Satan was made perfect, why not us too?

If Satan wasn't corrupted until he was proud, why were not corrupt until we sinned? Being perfect is a powerful attribute. If God made is perfect, a perfect thing can not be designed to break apart with 100% certainty.

Something interesting about Satan... We often think Satan sinned before he God Eve to eat. Perhaps that was Satan's first sin too... Because Satan was not cursed until after the fall of man. Perhaps, being in Eden, Satan looks at the tree and thinks "Man can never mature without eating that, I am going to get them to eat it," and then does what he does. Up until then, he was put in the Garden as a perfect being, as said in Eze 28.

Perhaps his casting down happened when God told him he would eat dust for the rest of his life.

After Satan fell, he cried out to the Angels who could hear him to follow him, because "look what God did, look what God didn't stop" to him and to man, and they fell with him. But not by design, by choice, by pride, by selfishness. The angels who knew him the best, the ones who respected him before the fall were the most likely to fall, For there are 3 other "head angels" along with Lucifer, who are Michael and Gabriel. Lucifer's underlings were the most likely to follow him, thus 1/3 of heaven's angels fell.

But by their choice, not design.

God doesn't cause sin, he frees us from it. If God can't even tempt us to sin, how can he design us to sin?

James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Our sin is our own desires. And those desires are not caused by God. No one was designed to fall, because not even God can cause temptation, little less the fall of man. That goes for everyone, even Adam and Eve. The fall happened because 2 created beings thought it in their best interest to eat of the tree and one other thought it good for himself to talk them into doing it.

Now every day each of us has a choice to sin or not. Just like the 2/3 of the angels in heaven, and they resist every day, every year, for thousands of years, why can't we? Did God not give us a way out too? It is our choice, not our design, to fall.

 

[RobE]

RobE, thanks for coming out and saying it. I don't think any S.V. has done that yet, but you painted the exact point that most S.V. stand for. That we were created to fall.

Not true since all Calvinists and Traditional Christians believe that God is in control.

So, if we were designed to fall, God planned that he would make one rule, "don't eat that fruit," designed man to eat it not matter what, and then punished man for doing it? Gave women this awful pain in birth, made man work his life away, and then punished the snake, who was also designed to fall, all out of justice.... No. That isn't justice. If God designed us to fall, God initiated the process, thus God made it happen!

Ah, but Jesus. I see you remembered below.

Oh, I am forgetting, along with the punishment, God gave them grace through Jesus. So that makes it all alright that God can punish a creation for doing something he had no control over, and then give him a choice to follow his son or not, and then if he chooses not, punish him some more.... That is despicable, Rob.

Again you confuse foresight(seeing in advance) with foreordination(pre-arranging). God designing man with the ability to fall combined with seeing them fall still doesn't make God responsible for their choice. Maybe you feel the choice was to sin or not to sin. The real choice in creation by my estimation is Jesus(God) or not Jesus(God). All men fall short of the glory of God. Is the design flawed? NO. Talk to Bling about the objective of creation because He's spent post after post talking about just that. You thinking the fall of man was evil is a problem with your theology, not mine. The fall of man was a good thing in that it gave us the change to TRULY develop a love for our Lord. A love which wouldn't have been complete without falling short of the mark. Do you see it in your anger? Was the fall evil?

Now every day each of us has a choice to sin or not. Just like the 2/3 of the angels in heaven, and they resist every day, every year, for thousands of years, why can't we? Did God not give us a way out too? It is our choice, not our design, to fall.

Greater is he who believes without seeing. For eternity what are the chances you won't sin? The Lord Jesus will lead us on and we will be His after this life. Do you believe this? Our perfection is only in/through Him. We can't achieve it ourselves ---as Open Theism tells us. Are you God? Is God a man? No! Jesus was neccesary for us. Are the branches alive without the vine? Now my anger is stirred! Jesus created us and saved us! Recant that God could/would sin by seeing your future as you chose to make it. Thank God that He would redeem you from your own choices and fulfill His plan which is greater than your understanding after He saw those same choices.

Yours in eternity,

RobE

Patrick, don't forget that He designed us to repent as well. Jesus also paid the entire price for your fall. Does this sound like someone who understands responsibility. If Jesus designed us to fall then Jesus paid the price for that fall----in full. You won't go to Hell for what Adam did. You go on your own merits. Gen 3:16.

 

[patman]

Rob

Rob

Again you confuse foresight(seeing in advance) with foreordination(pre-arranging).

.......

The real choice in creation by my estimation is Jesus(God) or not Jesus(God). All men fall short of the glory of God.

Rob, who cares what I believe about foresight and foreordination? All that matters to me is that you believe God predestined man to fall.

Rob, The general belief of the S.V. is that God designed Adam and Eve to fall. And somehow that is OK because he also threw us a rope?

If I pushed your son or daughter off of a roof with a parachute, would you use the same reasoning for me? "Oh, it's OK, Pat. I know you pushed them off the building, putting their lives in danger and potentially ripping them away from me, but it's no problem, you strapped a parachute to them. Your putting them in danger is canceled out."

I hate giving you examples like that because you usually find a way to twist them around so you don't have to understand the point. But please take it as it is, you'd be furious at me if I pushed your daughter off the building. So what if there is more involved, my actions were still wrong no matter what good came of it.

What if I gave you a poisonous drink and tricked you into drinking it? Then told you it was full of rat poison. But then gave you something to help yourself get better. Are you telling me because I gave you something to fix the problem I caused means I am free from the sin of putting your life in danger?

So that means God can create Adam to sin, thus causing his own death and the death of everyone else, and for billions of others the possibility of a second death compared to the few who follow the straight and narrow, and get away with it without sinning because he gave them some blood to wash it down IF they would only trust him?

And THEY are asking "Trust a God who would cause all this on purpose?"

I say no. Don't trust anyone who would do such a thing. And don't trust someone who justifies it with judgments of heavier issues.

Instead, trust God who didn't design us to fall.

The fall of man was a good thing in that it gave us the change to TRULY develop a love for our Lord. A love which wouldn't have been complete without falling short of the mark. Do you see it in your anger? Was the fall evil?

The fall was the worst thing to happen to us. Saying what you said is one way to stay positive, but really, the fall really messed up God's plan that none shall perish. Now, because of that event, billions will perish. And that's good?

Rob, I showed how even Satan was created perfect. But he fell by his own desires. No where did God design Satan to fall. You and Bling are very short sighted in saying this. Because you forget that billions of Angels do not know what sin is. And billions of unborn - prematurely demised babies, i.e. humans never tasted sin as they went straight to heaven.

You look at your own need for Christ's Grace and assume it on everything God created.

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Romans 3:19*
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Not everyone is under your umbrella. I say your umbrella, but it is mine too. I need Grace for I too am a sinner. And Praise God for his love that we have!

But I don't assign everyone to the narrow site the S.V. has. You don't see that God's objective did not require anyone to sin. Sin was a true choice, not a design feature. Man's sin didn't enhance us, it destroyed us.

Read as if a car commercial:
Now new and improved man! Get yours today! Now added, SIN, for those late night affairs, those rapes, and all the cannibalism gives man a new edge to love God. Before man's love for God wasn't enough to make God happy, but now with Sin in their lives, God is happy.

I try to keep things a little lighter-sidded at times but the above isn't supposed to be funny. It is meant to strike a spark that perhaps you should reconsider what you think.

Greater is he who believes without seeing. For eternity what are the chances you won't sin? The Lord Jesus will lead us on and we will be His after this life. Do you believe this? Our perfection is only in/through Him. We can't achieve it ourselves ---as Open Theism tells us. Are you God? Is God a man? No! Jesus was neccesary for us.

But Jesus' Death was not necessary for all of creation. Only those who needed a savior. I for one need a savior. But the difference is that I believe even Adam and Eve were free to choose if they fell or not. And on the contrary you said that were we, and by extension, they, were designed to fall.

I know the Bible says that we sinners get to feel God's love more and find more to give back once we are forgiven. It is something that can only be felt by those who experienced it. Angels and Men who never sinned have no idea what it's like. And it is a great and wonderful feeling to know God still loved you in spite of your sin.

But you guys are putting way to much on this. You would have every single creature in the world sin that they might know that love, regardless of the evil that comes from it.

You are saying that there are men in heaven today who didn't live long enough to sin who are not fulfilling their objective? Those poor people, their lives must be meaningless, according to this revelation. Those poor angels, never getting to sin. They can't know love, not agape love.

That's just ridiculous. If God can know Agape love and not be a sinner, and he can create anything in the world, is full of power and majesty, why can't he create us with the ability to understand it to, without any outside environmental or sociological requirements? Well he can. And he did.

Everyone in their gut knows what love is. Even Agape love. And sin isn't required to bring it out.

Bling said Agape love is only possible with needy people. As if sin is required to create a need? As if little babies don't need their mother love and nurture? As if businessmen don't need the farmers crops? God created us all to depend on each other's gifts. And that is where the love comes in, to give of ourselves for others who need what we do, and are.

Even without sin, a man still desires the love of a woman, and needs it to make it through. Even without sin man needs to know God is there.

You guys are saying a very evil thing, Rob. You are saying it shortsighted, yes, not realizing the world beyond your own grace, and at the cost of calling God the cause of all this.

Are the branches alive without the vine? Now my anger is stirred! Jesus created us and saved us! Recant that God could/would sin by seeing your future as you chose to make it. Thank God that He would redeem you from your own choices and fulfill His plan which is greater than your understanding after He saw those same choices.

Well I hope I stirred your anger into coherent thoughts, Rob. And the same for Bling too, if he reads. I am not so bold as to say I do not need the branch, because I do, but I will profess that the Bible says there are some in creation that do not need Grace, ie, the forgiveness of sins, to love God.

Patrick, don't forget that He designed us to repent as well. Jesus also paid the entire price for your fall. Does this sound like someone who understands responsibility. If Jesus designed us to fall then Jesus paid the price for that fall----in full. You won't go to Hell for what Adam did. You go on your own merits. Gen 3:16.

For those wondering what Gen 3:16 says and why I didn't address it:
Gen 3:16
To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

We were not all designed to repent. You forget those that didn't. Those that might have had a chance if they were around good influences. Billions and billions of people who never repent, as a design feature.

I know it didn't happen this way, but I believe it could have. Adam could have not sinned. And the countless millions who came from him could have not sinned. And say one was tempted to sin, he would be better off with this world because now he has others to look to, who overcame temptation, for we look to our peers often times to decide what to do.

Sin separates us from God. Grace reunites us. But it is better to never have been separated than to have been. I think you forget that, or just don't believe it.

Even though the father rejoiced greatly at the return of the son, the son who never left still has a throne in the father's heart. He just never got a coming home party. He and his father will still love each other.

Matt 28
28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.
31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
"The first," they answered.

1 Samuel 15
22 So Samuel said:
“Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.

Why do you say it is better to sin than to obey again? Because God doesn't agree. He would rather Adam and Eve obey. And he would in no way design them to sin. For it would be better if we never sinned and didn't need grace than if we did sin and required it.

Even though Grace is great, it does not mean we have a free pass to sin, or God's approval. And it does not mean in any way that God would design us to sin.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Even though Grace is good, sin is rejected by God. Even if it causes more grace! Paul asks, "should we who are dead to sin keep sinning?" Well are those who are not born to sin jump into it that they might know grace? I would say the answer for God and anyone else who loves righteousness more than what they get from sinning "Certainly not!"

Why should you think that A God who can't even tempt is able to design something that will sin? Even though grace has its good parts, not sinning is even better!

If you two really think Agape love is the objective, and that it is only achievable through sinning man, you will be very disappointed after judgement day. For you both will be in a happy place where there is no sin. How will you ever love God, with no sin? Might want to rethink that Agape love line of thinking.

There is so much more to our objective than any one knows. And putting blinders on it does not get you beyond your own street. There is an entire world of God's love and creatures who love God who do not sin and will never have to. We, at one time, were among those, until we fell. And now we have Grace, but it would be better if we didn't fall.

For now, we only have faith that God loves us. It comes with little proof that we can feel, see or hear. It comes from faith, blind faith. How much better would it be if we always had God there face to face, as in the Garden? Heaven on earth, and you both would rather have hell on earth that a few might experience grace. I would rather have everyone no program to sin, and that would give everyone a much better chance in loving God as if we were all in heaven.

It isn't a guarantee, it is just a better way, the way God created us. But Adam and Eve messed it up by bringing sin to us all. Now we are all doomed to die, we are all certain to hurt, because we all sin and are sinned against.

God couldn't force it to happen that way though. It was Adam's freewill choice that brought all this on us, not his programed design. Sin was never necessary for us. Grace is only necessary to sinners.

When God finished his creation, he said his creation was "very good" but according to you, man wasn't all that good, being incomplete without sin. So who is right? Was creation not good enough without sin?

Jeremiah 4:22
“ For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge.”

It is a common thing for humans to do, to think it is wise for evil to be here, and good to have no knowledge. But God said that was silly. Stop being silly, Evil is evil, sin is evil, The fall of man was the first time man did evil and you are calling it good??????

Rob, this is such a bad thing. I morn for you. I come across passionate, but inside I cry at your thinking.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Romans 3:8
And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?.......

This fall happened because of evil. And you are calling that evil that caused the fall good because good came from it?

If God said that we should never sin that good may come of it, It stands to reason that God would not cause sin that good may come of it, because the fall, the first sin of man, any sin of man, is evil!

Without the fall I guess we would just have to "get by" without sin. Poor us.

 

[patman]

Just a note.

When ever I said that God wouldn't design us to sin, I am not saying that we are incapable of sin. I am saying that God wouldn't design in such a way that we are going to sin with absoluteness.

We have freewill. God designed us with the ability to choose. But he did not design us to fall, but designed us to choose if we fall or not. It is not his choice but ours.

Sin is not required, it is a possibility. And it is a possibility that had Adam wanted, he could have done with out sin forever. Rob and Bling assert that sin had to happen and the fall was a part of the entire plan. I utterly reject it.

 

[RobE]

Sorry.

I meant Genesis 3:22

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I made the post in haste. My memory didn't serve me well. I'll let you answer this verse first; then I'll answer your post above.

Yours,
RobE

 

[bling]

Just a note.

When ever I said that God wouldn't design us to sin, I am not saying that we are incapable of sin. I am saying that God wouldn't design in such a way that we are going to sin with absoluteness.

We have freewill. God designed us with the ability to choose. But he did not design us to fall, but designed us to choose if we fall or not. It is not his choice but ours.

Sin is not required, it is a possibility. And it is a possibility that had Adam wanted, he could have done with out sin forever. Rob and Bling assert that sin had to happen and the fall was a part of the entire plan. I utterly reject it.

Quick comment:
When I deal with Jewish people they utterly reject God taking on human form. When pressed about the idea of God being able to do anything He would want to do or feels He would need to do, they can come around to the idea it is not beyond possibility for God even though they have an extremely hard time with the idea. (Off subject, I use the garden story to show what God will do for man.) So, Patman do you feel it is beyond God’s ability to knowingly arrange for man to sin? If it were in man’s best interest to sin, God could not knowingly allow it to happen and still be God? Does this make God just like Satan? What are the differences, if He allows humans to sin? How am I doing something wrong when I equate: allowing humans to sin, with allowing Satan to roam the earth and to allowing Christ to go to the cross? Everything is terrible!

 

[patman]

Bling

Bling

God allowing for sin is one thing. God designing man to sin is another.

Grace being a gift is one thing. Sin being a good thing is another.

God creating man not knowing if he would sin and hoping he wouldn't sin is one thing. God creating man knowing what would happen is another.

Bling, you too are calling evil good. The following sentence gives you away:

"do you feel it is beyond God’s ability to knowingly arrange for man to sin? If it were in man’s best interest to sin, God could not knowingly allow it to happen and still be God?"

You are not exposed by your saying that God allows sin, but by saying it was in our best interest, and by suggesting it is possible that God arranged for man to sin.

In doing this, you proclaim to unbelievers that sin is a good thing, arranged by God even! You tell them that it was for the best that all this unholy world was created. And then you tell them God was behind it all along?

You paint them a picture of a God who caused all this to happen, then hang the drapes of "it was our fault" on it. And you are right, it was our fault. But not because God planned/arranged it to happen!!! And absolutely NOT for the best!

Your Agape love has turned into a personal love for sin, Bling. Bling, you love sin. You love that sin happened to us. Worse yet, you love that you think that God planned it for man that he might have Agape love from a few of us. You fail to see that sin separates us from God. You say it isn't true. But it is. You don't see that sin separates us from Him.

If you did see it, you wouldn't say God planned it to happen like it did.

You look around us and justify "God's plan" by saying it was for the best that we sin? Even when the Bible clearly shows God's hate for sin, you say it was really his plan all along?

You use a wonderful thing like Agape love, and taint it by saying it can't exist for us, God's children, without sin. You put the "badge of sin" on a gift such as Agape love, bling. You do, You do. You, indeed, do.

You must deal with the question, "Why couldn't God create us with the ability to Agape love without sin," because you know he could?

And, I say he create us with that knowledge!

You can only ignore it, or wish it away, or consider it a moot point. You say Agape love for humans is only possible with sin. Why? Because God couldn't create us with it's understanding? As if God couldn't show us a better way, by putting it in our very hearts.

Would you rejoice that a man was shot so that you may shower him with your agape love? I think you would. You see that evil thing as good. You call evil good.

Rightly judge what is good, and what is evil. Stop your deceitful thoughts that tell you that God would cause evil. Your arguments that sin is needed for Agape love puts shame on God, and his love for us!

I am amazed you haven't scared more people away from God! I am amazed your seed isn't like that which falls in the rocky soil, and is eaten away by the birds! Anyone who hears what you are saying would gladly sin that grace should abound for it was Gods original plan! Even if you tell them it is not true, your own creation story contradicts it, because you have God himself creating us to require sin that we might love!?

What sinner wouldn't love your story? "Now, sin is good! God caused it to begin with so we could love! I'm just going to spread the love by sinning!"

But you say "No, the love that comes out of sin makes us realize how much God loves us, not sinning more." Love does not come out of sin. The fruits of sin are not love, bling. We who are forgiven much love much, not we who sin love much!!! There is billions of people out there who are dead and not forgiven. How much is their love?

I am sure they are really gracious that God "arranged for sin" because it was "for the best" and that sin was forced on them by Adam's seed thus sending them to hell. It must all be great for them that it was arranged that they would sin. I bet they are feeling the love now.

Thus, your message backfires. It tells people God caused sin that we might love him better, and people who hear this and ponder on it will think God to be dark.

"If even God can cause sin, why not I?"

And you say God arranged for sin, and seem to forget that God can't even tempt someone? By that alone you should be shamed, the most basic belief breaks down your message, and you hold to it, calling it good! And you judge my message?

You place the fll responsibility of our current state on God, who looked at this, and created it anyway. You say "God couldn't resist creating us even knowing the sinners and sins that would come about with 100% certainty." And worst, you say "It was for the best." And even worst, you say "he even arranged it to happen."

You look at our future in heaven, you see it coming. Indeed, you realize that God will be powerful enough to make it the happy place we have faith in. But you don't see that it is the happy place is the very place you preach against. Your message is that it cant be worth while without sin because without sin there can be no Agape love in heaven.

According to you, the first round, God couldn't bestow Agape love on his creation without sin. So he gave us sin that we might understand it. Now this second time, sin will not be required because we will magically be able to agape love without sin. God will do the second time(the recreation of heaven and earth) what he "forgot" to do the first time(allow us to understand and exercise agape love without need for sin)? God will do what he "gracefully didn't" do the first time?

What is your answer bling? Why didn't God just give us understanding of love that he wanted us to have when it was always possible for him to do it? Why didn't God allow us to grasp it without sin the first time? And why make it a two round creation, one that sin rips apart, and one that sin has no part of, and love be possible for both, only one requires sin and the other doesn't?

Why not just do the right thing the first time and not require sin for the understanding of love? He can do it, he has the power. Why cause this suffering for loves sake by sin, when it isn't even necessary? How can you say God does that?

Because you believe that God would do evil that good may come of it.

To you, God wasn't strong enough to stop himself from creating a world like this. With his future knowledge, he looked ahead and was content with the world. And he saw 9/11, the holocaust, the death marches, the disease and hunger, pain and hurt and saw an small spark in it all and you must believe that HE said, "I will create earth, and it will indeed be wicked, as I am the LORD, it will be wicked. Yet for this one small spark I will do it, for I cannot stop myself.

"I know I hate evil, and I know billions and billions of my children will suffer because I created them. Indeed, as Jesus will one day say, it would be better that they had never been born once they see the hell I will send them too.

"I know I will regret creating man on the earth, and will be grieved in my heart that I created him.

"However, I will create it knowing it will all fall apart, then I will step in in a mighty way and do what I should have done the first time. Create something that will be perfect forever. But the first time I do it, I will cause it to fall apart with sin. Then the second time, only a few will enjoy the love, the small spark that I foresaw. And those who fall will have fallen because of the sin I arranged him to commit."

Bling, that is evil. Reject that thinking!! Instead, say "God created us as a universe full of light, for he made it all perfect; even Satan was perfect at creation! But it had freewill, a choice to love or to hate, and the future wasn't foreseeable, so God didn't know all that darkness would happen. He expected nothing but good, but instead got evil. And the light fell into darkness from it's own freewill, for God caused nothing to happen that is sinful. But all will be well again one day, when God separates the darkness from the light, and the light will shine forever apart from the darkness. Then, when God recreates what we messed up, the light will be together, and all will be right."

Bling, Even Jesus recognizes some are better off not being born! Do you challenge him?

Mark 14:21
"The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

Jesus said it this kind of thing on other occasions too. He knows that It would be better if sinners had never been born, for the hell they know is real.

Don't miss the point, bling. God created good, and expected good. Instead he got bitterness, and the bitterness was unexpected and undesired. Don't say that the bitterness God got was really sweetness. Don't be like those silly children I told Rob about!

Isaiah 5
1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:

My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “ And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

God's expectations are real. If he thinks something will happen, he really thinks something will happen. This message is to Israel, it is about how God planted them, how he expected them to be good, but were evil instead. But it is also about the world. God planted the world. He expected it to bring forth Good grapes. But instead, look at all the wickedness.

God did everything right to prevent the wild grapes! He didn't go behind his own back and plant them!! How awful to say that of God, the loving God, who saved us!

God obviously expected better for us. And he obviously planned for the worst too. And in his love, he gave us Christ. Yet you say in his love he gave us sin?????? It was for the best??????????

Bling, I must echo to you what I told Rob. You ignore the rest of creation to trust in the ideas you have. You ignore the human's who died before they could sin. And the thousands and thousands of angels who never sinned, and say they can't love God without sinning. You claim our objective is founded through agape love only possible by sin, and yet they never sin. According to you, countless millions of people never reached their objective because they live in a place where sin is not.

Their love for God isn't good enough according to you, because it doesn't have the understanding that comes from Grace. But their love is good enough! Because of their faithfulness, they have wonderful gifts that we will never know or understand! To love God is good, no matter if you require Grace or not.

Bling. Again I say, turn from your thoughts that sin is good and for the best and a part of God's objective in the Garden, and that sin is required for agape love. It is truly wrong.

 

[patman]

RobE

RobE

Sorry.

I meant Genesis 3:22

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I made the post in haste. My memory didn't serve me well. I'll let you answer this verse first; then I'll answer your post above.

Yours,
RobE

I see nothing in this verse that proves God arranged or designed us to sin. Whatever you are going to draw from this verse will no doubt be a stretch on it's actual meaning and will require much "reading into"

I again submit James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

God can't even tempt, he surly won't arrange or design us to sin. Sin doesn't come from God's design, it comes from our own "own desires and enticed." I do not have to explain what this message means, it clearly says it.

Rob, No rubber bible verses, please.

 

[patman]

Lee

Lee

God can clearly change his mind as shown by these verses:

-------------------------------------------------
God said he would do something
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Ex 34:11 “Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittiteand the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. ”


Josh 3:10 And Joshua said, “By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites...

-------------------------------------------------
God will NOT do what he said he will do
-------------------------------------------------

Josh 15:63 As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem to this day.

Josh 16:10 And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.

Jud 2:1-3 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’”

Jud 2:19-22 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they reverted and behaved more corruptly than their fathers, by following other gods, to serve them and bow down to them. They did not cease from their own doings nor from their stubborn way. 20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, “Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice, 21 I also will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, 22 so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the LORD, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not.”

Jud 3:1-6 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any of the wars in Canaan 2 (this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it), 3 namely, five lords of the Philistines, all the Canaanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites who dwelt in Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal Hermon to the entrance of Hamath. 4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the LORD, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses. 5Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 6 And they took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons; and they served their gods.

-------------------------------------------------
God Changes his mind in the very same verse
-------------------------------------------------

Num 14:11-12 Then the LORD said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? 12 I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.” 19-20 “Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray, according to the greatness of Your mercy, just as You have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.” 20 Then the LORD said: “I have pardoned, according to your word;

-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------

Again, I apply that God does not know 100% of the future because he is unable to foresee that he will not drive out these nations at the time he said he would.

That is OK because God is able to judge correctly and deal with the situation rightly and still is loving and good. This does not mean God is week, untrustworthy, nor flawed. God is great, God is good, God is powerful.

The ability to do good is greater than the ability to see the future.

 

[bling]

Originally Posted by patman
RobE, thanks for coming out and saying it. I don't think any S.V. has done that yet, but you painted the exact point that most S.V. stand for. That we were created to fall. All O.V. folks I know look at that traditional S.V. idea and reject that God would do such a thing, and scratch our heads as to why S.V. followers are so happy to believe it.

We go over this and over this, God created us to have the opportunity to Godly love Him and other, unfortunately humans can not fulfill that objective without free will with real choices, forgiveness, needy people, Satan, examples of the love, Faith, Hope, and sin. We were not created to sin! Sin was realized by God to happen over time by all human adults, given the objective. It was also inevitable that Christ would go to the cross, which was another terrible thing, but there was no way around that happening either. Christ was not created to go to the cross, but would have to and everyone knew that.

Originally Posted by patman
Think about the symbol of Evil. Satan himself. It stands to reason he was designed to fall as well, along with the large number of angels that went with him. That stands to reason that a hand select few were designed not to fall. And all humans fall, so basically only a few don't get the "privilege". As I type all this, I can't help by being angry at the idea, to think that God designed all this stuff to happen.

We know very little about angles and don’t need to know much. How they came about, were they lived, how long they lived, how they interact with God, how they exercise free will, and a host of other stuff. Angels seem to have some form of free will, which means given the option at some point in time to choose wrong over some length of time will result in some angels falling. God again did not cause them to fall but realized some would (or realized exactly who would). The angle situation is nothing like ours, I would think, but really I do not know enough to even speculate. God designed everything a part from Himself to develop Godly type love, unfortunately that also means some will fall.

Originally Posted by patman
So, if we were designed to fall, God planned that he would make one rule, "don't eat that fruit," designed man to eat it not matter what, and then punished man for doing it? Gave women this awful pain in birth, made man work his life away, and then punished the snake, who was also designed to fall, all out of justice.... No. That isn't justice. If God designed us to fall, God initiated the process, thus God made it happen!

I have said repeatedly what humans were designed to do (and everything else in this world and throughout history was to help with this) was to “develop Godly type love”. The Garden, the tree, the value placed on the tree (knowledge of good and evil), Satan’s role, the timing, the information given, the protection, and the actions of all the players (we can exclude Adam and Eve) were will thought out. Yes, Adam and Eve would be deceived into eating the fruit, for they would lack what it takes to keep from eating, what it takes; the indwelling Spirit will only come after Godly Love has been accepted in the forgiveness of God with Christ on the cross. As far as women suffering in Child bearing, is there some good that comes with suffering for a cause, is this a great enough cause? Are women that go through and survive child bearing better off? You really need to talk to mothers on this subject. As far as men working hard for what they get, is that bad? What can I sacrificially give to other humans if it is not some limited hard to get resource, with a limited amount of time (Adam’s time has value now also, he is not eternal), so now Adam has something to give to the needy and be like God in serving humans out of love.
God is not to blame, it was man’s choice and this one bad choice is not the end for Adam or any of us, it is the beginning of a potentially better relationship between man the sinner and God the forgiver.

Originally Posted by patman
Oh, I am forgetting, along with the punishment, God gave them grace through Jesus. So that makes it all alright that God can punish a creation for doing something he had no control over, and then give him a choice to follow his son or not, and then if he chooses not, punish him some more.... That is despicable, Rob. Every agnostic I ever spoken with realizes this ends and questions why they should follow a God who could do this. I only wish I knew then what I know now that I might show them it isn't that way at all, because we are not designed to fall, contrary to what you say.

I have dealt and am dealing with agnostics and atheist you can go to: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=143274 and read how it goes. Have you ever been disciplined by God? We are punished at Judgment for our decision to not accept God’s love, and not develop Godly love, whether God knows that ahead of time or not world make no difference and it is certainly not the argument those being judged for making the wrong choices, will be able to make, because God has done everything the best He could to help them make the right choice.

Originally Posted by patman
2/3 of the angels in Heaven made a choice to follow God. 1/3 fell with Satan. So that is 2/3 of the angels who never knew sin, to this very day. That means Angels like Michael to this day are perfect, and have not given in to temptation. If God is so keen on his creation knowing/doing sin that they might know what real love is, why not make them all fall?

Again, we don’t know enough about angels to say much. Maybe their love is limited, maybe that could only happen one time, maybe new angles can not be made in association with angles that have already gone through the choice process, maybe a satan had to come into being before God could use the better way of humans on earth. It is a good question, we can ask Him later for it will not help us now.

Originally Posted by patman
Perhaps the Angels in heaven choose not to fall. Perhaps Adam had the same choice, and suppose he didn't fall, and thousands of years later men followed Adam's example. Then one day one when there were thousands of humans one guy falls, and takes 1/3 of the humans with him. Why is that so hard to imagine as a possibility? It happened to one set of God's creation, why not man? Your answer is "we were designed to fall." As if having every human being in existence as sinners was such a good idea.

Wow, I think the Bible talks about idle discussions about angles Colossians 2:18. We just don’t know enough.

Originally Posted by patman
Undoubtedly, the reasoning for such a belief would be that it was a "good idea" because God could see the future, and has a plan for it all along as it being the "best direction." After all, we want God to be in control of EVERYTHING so bad that he has to be the one who caused the first sin too. (And yes, he did cause it if he designed Adam and Eve to do it.) That is why you think it is "OK" I suppose.

The best direction is always being taken by God; it is man’s free will choice, which is predictable, that is messing things up for some, not everyone. I start with the Garden and see it as being the first part (actually Satan’s fall and the cross might be part one and two) of a very excellent (perfect on God’s part) plan for providing every opportunity for man to develop Godly type love, all the way up until today. It is an ever improving building on the past situation for man.

Originally Posted by patman
This is why I say that if God destined man to fall if he had 100% future knowledge. Every S.V. adheres to it, they all see the same logical ends to the means: "All this happened for a reason and that means it was caused for a reason also."

Whether God had future knowledge or not would make no difference in the fall of Adam and Eve. Their fall did have a reason, for humans can not be made to develop Godly love without them failing at some time along the way. You can not have one without the other unless you are Christ. Today, every adult will sin at some time, even though in theory they would not have to, so are they predestined to sin?

Originally Posted by patman
You may say that you believe it because the Bible says this or that. Regardless it should be obvious that it is impossible to even conceive of as happening if God didn't know the future. The path of believing God knows the future leads to this very place, that God caused the first sin by designing Adam and Eve and Satan to all fall, thus they did not have a free decision as they were designed to take the fall. I would think anyone, S.V. or O.V. would turn away from that, but some S.V.'ers don't. No O.V. mindset allows for this.

God created humans to have the possibility of developing Godly type love, which will include a lot of intermediate steps, including Christ going to the cross. No foreknowledge is needed for these steps, they are obvious to people who understand: the objective, sin, forgiveness, Godly love, satan, human nature, time, and temptations.

Originally Posted by patman
If God didn't know the future, and if God didn't design man to fall, the fall happened as chance. God, however, being wise, loving and planning for the just in case, made a way for those who fall to have a way back, even though they didn't deserve it. Then it didn't matter who fell, Adam, Bob, Ann, Sue, Yu, Mi, or whoever, those people fell as their own choice, and having a loving God, had a way back too.

Is it not wonderful that God’s plan could work for everyone including Adam and Eve and everyone needs to exercise that plan equally, even though it was not intended to be that way (?). Now let us think about this for a while Adam and Eve don’t sin, so they are around today and I (a sinner) see them off in the Garden working their tails off on their own trying to keep from sinning, while I am being led and protected by the indwelling Spirit and my concern is for all the needy people I am and can help (doing good for those that need it) without really worrying about sin. I have all kinds of ways to show and experience Godly love working though me, while they are stuck in the garden with no needy people, no indwelling Spirit, no forgiveness, no feel of having the burden of sin lifted from them, no way to experience the Love of God, in the death of Christ on the cross. I just do not see how that scenario would work, can you help me?

Originally Posted by patman
It is the best way to say "God didn't cause all this to happen" as he didn't foresee it happening. Which I say, but doesn't seem to matter to you because you already believe that God did cause it. Not in so many words, but that's what you are saying. If we were designed to sin, the designer is the one who did the designing, thus causing the sin.

God allowed it to happen and knew He would have to allow it to happen if humans are ever to develop Godly love.

Originally Posted by patman
It is the worst thing to say about God I can imagine. It gives reason for all the songs and thoughts people think to resent God... because if God did cause sin, then punish the sinners for doing it, and then punish the sinners who reject the way back even more with a second death, all while knowing in advance that this would happen, I can see why they would be resentful.

If you can imagine God allowing Christ to go to the cross for some great objective, then it is easy to imagine God allowing humans to sin for some great objective.

Originally Posted by patman
Why do you think these people think this? If they were not going to follow God, I would want them to reject for real reasons, not reasons based on an S.V. aspect. They understand perfectly the ends to the belief that God caused us to fall. And then they look at us christians and wonder why we would follow God, and why we think he deserves praise. Some of the S.V. conclusion is that we were better off falling, but Modest Mouse puts it well, 9 times out of 10, things are worst, and 1 time out of 10, something good comes out of it all.

You might read my thread on the internet infidel’s board shown earlier. You can get on and see how they treat your ideas.

Originally Posted by patman
This world is full of more evil that anyone can ever know. So many people hurting from this initial fall designed by God, so many people suffering from sin. And the S.V. says it is a part of the plan, or it was designed to be this way. And they claim this because God is in control!!! They want that more than anything, more than his grace, more than his love, more than their neighbor's eternal soul to be in heaven the want God to be in total control. This is not the message of the Bible.

That God designed the fall along with 100% future knowledge means he foresaw what happened, and was Ok with it. For God to simply have 100% future knowledge along with the 9 times out of 10 things are bad here means he created it anyway and was OK with that outcome, thus he caused it to exist.

I really think you should check the other board out because that is what I address heavily. After you read that you can address questions, here on the subject. It can be explained as far as I am concerned, but you tell me where my logic breaks down and how yours will be better. You will run into the same issues if you say God does not know the exact future, but would know all the alternative way out there and would realize the most likely alternatives with great accuracy.

Originally Posted by patman
God never said anywhere that he caused someone to fall by design. Not even Satan, yet you say we were designed to fall?

We keep addressing this we were designed for the possiblity Godly love if we chose to.

Originally Posted by patman
If Satan was made perfect, why not us too?

We are made the best that can be made to develop Godly love, so in that since we are perfectly made to fulfill the objective given.

Originally Posted by patman
If Satan wasn't corrupted until he was proud, why were not corrupt until we sinned? Being perfect is a powerful attribute. If God made is perfect, a perfect thing can not be designed to break apart with 100% certainty.

I do say that we are sinless until we sin, but the objective is not to be sinless it is to develop Godly love. A perfect thing made by God will not “break apart” at all any time any way; we just need to define perfection as what ever God designed it to be, understanding sometimes it is designed with free will causing wrong choices by some at some time.

Originally Posted by patman
Something interesting about Satan... We often think Satan sinned before he God Eve to eat. Perhaps that was Satan's first sin too... Because Satan was not cursed until after the fall of man. Perhaps, being in Eden, Satan looks at the tree and thinks "Man can never mature without eating that, I am going to get them to eat it," and then does what he does. Up until then, he was put in the Garden as a perfect being, as said in Eze 28.

Perhaps his casting down happened when God told him he would eat dust for the rest of his life.

After Satan fell, he cried out to the Angels who could hear him to follow him, because "look what God did, look what God didn't stop" to him and to man, and they fell with him. But not by design, by choice, by pride, by selfishness. The angels who knew him the best, the ones who respected him before the fall were the most likely to fall, For there are 3 other "head angels" along with Lucifer, who are Michael and Gabriel. Lucifer's underlings were the most likely to follow him, thus 1/3 of heaven's angels fell.

But by their choice, not design.

God doesn't cause sin, he frees us from it. If God can't even tempt us to sin, how can he design us to sin?

This is another big subject and we will not no all we would like to know about this subject, I have more questions then answers, but we are not addressing my other questions about Adam and Eve. We can talk about Satan next if you really want, but again we are dealing with Spiritual beings which do not have organic brains like ours, so it is hard to equate. I know we have different ideas about Satan, from what you are speculating.

Originally Posted by patman
Our sin is our own desires. And those desires are not caused by God. No one was designed to fall, because not even God can cause temptation, little less the fall of man. That goes for everyone, even Adam and Eve. The fall happened because 2 created beings thought it in their best interest to eat of the tree and one other thought it good for himself to talk them into doing it.

I keep asking this question: The Bible shows Eve was tricked into eating, an act of coveting, and does not say she thought it was in her best interest or Adam thought it was in his best interest. Adam clearly says (no one has ever lied directly to God and got away with it) that it was for Eve he ate. (Adam loved Eve more then God at this time from this reaction.)
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7
That is not wanting to take the “door” out.

Originally Posted by patman
Now every day each of us has a choice to sin or not. Just like the 2/3 of the angels in heaven, and they resist every day, every year, for thousands of years, why can't we? Did God not give us a way out too? It is our choice, not our design, to fall.

Did they have Satan tempting them every hour?
Where they Spiritual beings or humans at the time?
Did they need to have faith in God?
Did they need to have hope that God would do something or did they have knowledge that He would?
Did they have to deal with limited resources?
Did they have to deal with pain, suffering, death, and tragedies?
Did they have to deal with haves and have nots among equals?
There is so much we do not know about angels were do I go with it?
So why, do you sin?


I did not address a lot of the other stuff far from Adam and Eve. I don’t like moving on until we tie this down.

God help us all.

 

[patman]

Bling

Bling

It looks like you replied to the thread that was addressed to "Rob, and a little to Bling."

I didn't address it all to you, most of that was for Rob unless in the thread I included you.

You keep talking about our choices and that God "allowed" us to fall. And you know that I agree that God allowed it to happen. RobE came out and said what You are trying to say, that God caused it to happen.

I site this to support my claims:
BLING at http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=143274&page=8
"God’s will is controlling our action and God’s will is controlling His action and His desires. God’s objective is to help us fulfill our objective. We are to fulfill our objective of Godly love for God and others, and God will quench His desires to help us fulfill that objective. The big difference is God already has Godly love and we are trying to develop it."

I think that sums up your ideas. That God is controlling our actions, and our actions are to develop Godly love.

You also said that God allowing for sin to happen was necessary to develop love. And this is true. I agree. Why? Because how can something that isn't free to choose for itself able to give true love?

But your statement that "God’s will is controlling our action..." contradicts that completely. If God's will is controlling our actions, we are not sinning, but God is.

If my Kermit the Frog Puppet that is on my arm head-bunts someone, it isn't Kermit's fault, it is mine.

I can make Kermit tell me he loves me, and he likes the way I draw, or sing, or eat, or the way I make tea... but he doesn't love me, because I am controlling him.

But if my wife said it to me... I would know it was true. But if she head-bunts me, well that's her doing. And I probably deserved it

But anyway, from what little I read, I see them questioning your ideas and what God is like and what his standards are. I will read it more to verify if that is true or not.

But either way, you are still calling evil good, bling.

 

[patman]

Bling, Bling, Bling, bling, bling, bling

Bling, Bling, Bling, bling, bling, bling

Bling, as promised, I read through your other debate. I feel very embarrassed for you. No one is buying what you are saying.And, bling, as it turns out, I am right. Your ideas only promote evil.

John A. Broussard wrote
"What we should be praying for is for more misery in the world, more people dying in agony, more cripples, more blind, more deaf, more quadruplegics, more people covered with pustules and sores. The more there are, the more we can express our godly love.

Actually the evil some people see in the world is nothing more than god's expression of godly love and golden opportunities for us to also express that godly love."

And bling!!! You actually approve??? You go and tell him he is right? For just a few posts later you answer him "Something like that."

BLING!? You truly do promote evil and call it good.

You are speaking out of every side of your mouth that can speak but the right side. For you tell them

"God minupulates Satan to do the bad stuff that will create good results, for good people."

"God does not cause the suffering of innocent people, God allows Satan to do that. It is the only way I see to do it and I do not see away God could do it without allowing the suffering."

So is God allowing it or doing the manipulating?

You even recognize the holes in your arguement and don't feel your ideas need rethinking?

John A. Broussard asked
When a day-old baby is dying of dysentery and lingers for a week in screaming agony, this is a way for the baby to develop godly love. The suffering is for the baby's sake and not for god's sake. The more suffering the better, since god enjoys watching the baby suffer.

bling answered:
New born pain, is still a mystery.

Bling, the best answer is that the future is open. You are going in a completely off direction from the Bible. I hope it will get to you if I say it one last time:

Jeremiah 4:22
“ For My people are foolish, They have not known Me. They are silly children, And they have no understanding. They are wise to do evil, But to do good they have no knowledge.”

 

[RobE]

I again submit James 1
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Genesis 3:22

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

What does this verse mean? Specifically 'The man has now become like one of us.....'.

What does it mean to be made in God's image? The real choice created the fall, not God. His knowledge of what would happen didn't create any culpability. His creation of us with free will meant we would fall and He would catch us.

Translate and I'll respond to your post,

Rob

 

[bling]

I am sorry I made a quick comment to your quick comment, it has really got us off subject and leads to no were. We are now jumping into the middle of things with only opinions and miss conceptions of what the other is thinking without establishing anything. We can’t build together greater understanding by shouting our opinions. I am not saying we have to agree, just review and understand each others rational, support and weakness in each others assumptions without shouting conclusions. If you have reasonable logical thought-out, Biblically supported assumptions to support your conclusions, I can understand and agree with the logic of the assumptions, I may not agree with the conclusion at this time, because I might see my assumptions to be more logical, but we can move on. I have been trying to see what your answers to the weaknesses in your assumptions are, so I can evaluate their strength against my assumptions. I am not trying to make this personal. I will address every one of your comments and questions, but would you please address some of my questions concerning your assumptions about the Garden. I really think God put the Garden story first to establish the base of the relationship, and to be our starting point. I would also like to go back and have your answers on all my Garden question, but not getting that, can we go over a few questions needed to build from:
1. 1 John 1 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
When did God realize all mature adult humans would sin and be so sure it will always happen? Why is that so different from realizing Adam and Eve would sin?
2. Gen 3 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7
and 12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
These are the reasons the Bible gives for Adam and Eve eating the fruit. To give some other reason would I not have to say the Bible is wrong in the case of Eve and Adam lied to God in his case? Have you found in scripture this sin being called anything more then a sin like other people’s first sin? Do you find anywhere a person directly lying (or any sin) to God (or Jesus) and God not addressing that lie immediately? Is there any Biblical support for the motive for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree “wanting out” or taking the door?
3. Does the command: : “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.” Jesus said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” Still apply to us today? And was it always understood to apply to everyone? And if not understood was it always God’s desire?
4. If Godly love is defined by Christ in all His words, all His actions and on the cross. And using Paul’s 1 Cor. 13 to verbalize it definition. Then this love takes all (even if all means the vast majority) it leaves all other love a small portion of what you are doing and what you are doing has to be mainly Godly loving God. So how can you do anything good without Godly loving as the main portion of what you are doing?
5. . Isaiah 52: 14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him [c]— his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
You can not seem to take your rational justification, for God knowingly allowing an extremely horrible, tragic, situation in Christ going to the cross, and use a similar rational justification for God allowing Satan to roam the earth or God allowing people to sin, so what is the difference?
6. You seem to be saying God did not anticipate with accuracy what will happen, but did have a plan in place if sin did happen. And I am saying, God could figure out sin would happen and made it part of the over all plan. It does not sound like much difference, but it has a great reflection on God. My God would allow sin, so: the tree location, the quality of the fruit, the fruit’s value, Satan’s location and position, the lie used, the timing, the protection provided to Adam and Eve by God, and God’s reaction, all fit. My God would have only one best plan for man, yet still allow it to be man’s choice.
I have a problem with your reason if God was not expecting them to sir come to the temptation of coveting the tree then why make it so tempting: the placement of the tree, the quality of the fruit, the location of Satan, the lack of protection from Satan provided by God, how long Adam and Eve would have to remain in this tenuous situation, the lie Satan used, the motivation, and God not giving all of us a similar chance?
7. As part of the new subject: How do you explain how God with all the knowledge that can be known and all the power that can be had; allow natural tragedies that cause pain and suffering to innocent people (children) to occur like earth quacks, tsunamis, hurricanes, volcanic eruptions, cancer, and birth defects?
Patman, You know I have always try to answer every question you have presented to me as quickly as I can, so I will be working on the questions one at a time. If you can try and not let your conclusions drive your answers, but allow your love of truth. I try to address all your questions with the perspective of God not having foreknowledge as a requirement, which I do not see making any difference for the most part.

 

[bling]

Originally Posted by patman
God allowing for sin is one thing. God designing man to sin is another.

I have said before God has designed everything from day one to provide the best possibility for man at some point in his life to develop Godly love.

Originally Posted by patman
Grace being a gift is one thing. Sin being a good thing is another.

I never said sin was good! Sin, pain, suffering, hardship, and tragedies of all kind are bad, but good can and should come from them.

Originally Posted by patman
God creating man not knowing if he would sin and hoping he wouldn't sin is one thing. God creating man knowing what would happen is another.

God is continuing to make humans. How is that different from God knowing man will sin today?

Originally Posted by patman
Bling, you too are calling evil good. The following sentence gives you away:

"do you feel it is beyond God’s ability to knowingly arrange for man to sin? If it were in man’s best interest to sin, God could not knowingly allow it to happen and still be God?"

You are not exposed by your saying that God allows sin, but by saying it was in our best interest, and by suggesting it is possible that God arranged for man to sin.

Maybe arrange is the wrong word. God is not forcing us to sin. God allows us to be challenged to the max providing goals far beyond our abilities, but will within His ability and in so doing the momentary quench of the Spirit will result in sin, but that does not mean we lose or wont grow beyond where we are. We can learn from God’s success with us and our failures to do even great things with greater love in the future.

Originally Posted by patman
In doing this, you proclaim to unbelievers that sin is a good thing, arranged by God even! You tell them that it was for the best that all this unholy world was created. And then you tell them God was behind it all along?

Have you found unbelievers that have not sinned?
I have only talked to unbelievers that have sinned, so from there I can talk about their burden of sin, God’s love, what they need to accept from God, and what will happen with the Spirit. I do let them know, they do not have the power within them to fight spiritual beings like Satan and keep from sinning, this has always been acknowledged by them and a good selling point for being a Christian. (Do you agree with that statement?) And I add: I do believe our personal sins have to be bore by Christ on the cross and to do more sinning is like adding to His suffering, but they will have the power to keep from sinning.

Originally Posted by patman
You paint them a picture of a God who caused all this to happen, then hang the drapes of "it was our fault" on it. And you are right, it was our fault. But not because God planned/arranged it to happen!!! And absolutely NOT for the best!

God is allowing Satan to roam this earth, can any human stand up against an evil Spiritual being on his own?

Originally Posted by patman
Your Agape love has turned into a personal love for sin, Bling. Bling, you love sin. You love that sin happened to us. Worse yet, you love that you think that God planned it for man that he might have Agape love from a few of us. You fail to see that sin separates us from God. You say it isn't true. But it is. You don't see that sin separates us from Him.

If you did see it, you wouldn't say God planned it to happen like it did.

You look around us and justify "God's plan" by saying it was for the best that we sin? Even when the Bible clearly shows God's hate for sin, you say it was really his plan all along?

I keep saying, “Sin is bad!!” Sin separates us from God. I look around and say this is a much better situation, then I could come up with, to develop Godly type love. I also look at the Garden and see a situation that would be extremely hard if not impossible to develop Godly love in (I have listed the short comings many times with explanation from you, how those short coming could be overcome in the Garden.)

Originally Posted by patman
You use a wonderful thing like Agape love, and taint it by saying it can't exist for us, God's children, without sin. You put the "badge of sin" on a gift such as Agape love, bling. You do, You do. You, indeed, do.

You must deal with the question, "Why couldn't God create us with the ability to Agape love without sin," because you know he could?

And, I say he create us with that knowledge!

You can only ignore it, or wish it away, or consider it a moot point. You say Agape love for humans is only possible with sin. Why? Because God couldn't create us with it's understanding? As if God couldn't show us a better way, by putting it in our very hearts.

I will repeat what I have said before about love: In the Garden:
Humans must maintain their eternal close relationship with God by obedience. Outside the Garden they will dependent on God’s mercy for an eternal relationship.
2c. In the Garden humans can not experience forgiveness, “ he who is forgiven of much loves much” since they have not sinned, is there a problem with this?
2d. In the garden there are no needy people (those Adam can help without being helped directly in return) God is providing for all the needs of humans, His agape love is being showered on them, but they can’t be faithful sheep in the example of Matt. 25: 31-46, can they?
2e. We love then we obey, does our developing agape love require needy people?
2f. Adam and Eve can not see the full extent of God’s love without the cross. Does agape love begin with the realization of being forgiven of much (for humans) Luke 7: 36-50?
2g. Did Adam and Eve have the indwelling Holy Spirit? Why?
2i. I see these as huge problems, do you think God could not see these as a huge problem, even before He made Adam?

The Garden is the place were God really desire to put man, we can be assured of His heavenly promises since that is where He wants man. The problem with the Garden which we all need to realize early on is it is not the place to fulfill our objective, so God hold’s back His desire for man in order to help man fulfill man’s objective. God’s love is so great for man that He will do virtually everything to help man fulfill his objective. Could God show His love any better?

MY IDEA ON A GARDEN WITHOUT SIN: Remove Satan, remove the tree, make actions that please God instinctive, provide all the knowledge and logic needed to do good and avoid bad, and provide all the needs of humans so they will not covet. My God can easily do this, I can see how He gave some animals instinctive knowledge not to hurt their own specie. How, He gave us different feelings with different degrees of strength. He has shown a tremendous knowledge of man, sin, love, Satan, heaven and Himself.
This is also the way I picture Heaven, since it was designed before man it had to take all this into consideration, the rule for us will be to do only those things that please God.

The problem with creating this type Garden is the same problem with the Garden you can not develop agape love, you can have a very great wonderful child type love for a parent, but not agape love. We need to be on earth to develop at least some agape love and then we can really be in that eternal agape loving relationship with God.

It really doesn’t matter if sin is required to develop Godly love or not, because everyone has sinned, so it is almost a mute point. Adam and Eve had the chance and failed to develop Godly love without sinning. The question is, did God know people would sin? I think we are saying God would definitely realize some would sin, but given the situation He has but man in, will all sin? I would see all sinning at least once.

Godly love requires: free will choice with real alternatives. If God were to put Godly love in our hearts as you say it would be by His choice and not ours so it would not be Godly love by mine and what I see in the scripture definition.

Originally Posted by patman
Would you rejoice that a man was shot so that you may shower him with your agape love? I think you would. You see that evil thing as good. You call evil good.

You are sounding like my atheist “friends”. It is extremely sad that needy people is part of expressing Godly love. God is certainly fully engaged, all the time in serving humans to the best of His ability and we want to be like Him (Christ). We only have examples of how to be like Christ on earth while being surrounded with needy people, so that is all I know. Adam and Eve were not successful.

Evil is not good.

Originally Posted by patman
Rightly judge what is good, and what is evil. Stop your deceitful thoughts that tell you that God would cause evil. Your arguments that sin is needed for Agape love puts shame on God, and his love for us!

I never said God would cause evil! We are surrounded by evil and know from Christ’s example how to live in this world and develop Godly love. I can tell you every mature adult will sin and I know what they can do from there, but I can not tell anyone, how to live without ever sinning. Can you?

Originally Posted by patman
I am amazed you haven't scared more people away from God! I am amazed your seed isn't like that which falls in the rocky soil, and is eaten away by the birds! Anyone who hears what you are saying would gladly sin that grace should abound for it was Gods original plan! Even if you tell them it is not true, your own creation story contradicts it, because you have God himself creating us to require sin that we might love!?

I have given you a little of my background with the prison story, but I know very little about you, which is not needed, but your ideas about me are not what I am expressing as far as I can tell. I am very familiar with Paul telling us not to go on sinning that grace may abound. My experience working with prisoners, street kids, teens and college kids has taught me how good people can be. I have also had to encourage young men to be virtually sinless under some suffer persecution to the death if needed to support those that might survive and for their own sac. I have visited young new Christians in prison after being beaten for their faith that held the line and was speechless. Where have you found the best place to develop Godly love rapidly?

Originally Posted by patman
What sinner wouldn't love your story? "Now, sin is good! God caused it to begin with so we could love! I'm just going to spread the love by sinning!"

But you say "No, the love that comes out of sin makes us realize how much God loves us, not sinning more." Love does not come out of sin. The fruits of sin are not love, bling. We who are forgiven much love much, not we who sin love much!!! There is billions of people out there who are dead and not forgiven. How much is their love?

I do hope sinners would love my story. I tell them they are in a hopeless state, but there is hope, they can not stop their sinning now, but with the help of the Spirit they can allow Him to fight off Satan and all those sins they have committed are both forgiven and forgotten by God. Those that are dead because of sin, can be made alive with the love of God and what is great for me is I can allow Christ to work through me to make that happen. Even if we are forgiven of just one sin we are forgiven of much, Christ would have to go to the cross for just that one sin.

Originally Posted by patman
I am sure they are really gracious that God "arranged for sin" because it was "for the best" and that sin was forced on them by Adam's seed thus sending them to hell. It must all be great for them that it was arranged that they would sin. I bet they are feeling the love now.

I do not blame Adam, God or Satan, my sins are my fault. I also do not go on blaming myself and feeling sorry for myself. I review what went wrong, confess to my pray partners, discuss what I can be doing instead, pray individually and in small groups for forgiveness and guidance in the future, and try to fell my life with Christ like behavior and put the wrong with my past. What reasons and actions do you suggest to people for there sins, if you would give unbelievers and those that believe?

Originally Posted by patman
Thus, your message backfires. It tells people God caused sin that we might love him better, and people who hear this and ponder on it will think God to be dark.

"If even God can cause sin, why not I?"

And you say God arranged for sin, and seem to forget that God can't even tempt someone? By that alone you should be shamed, the most basic belief breaks down your message, and you hold to it, calling it good! And you judge my message?

God does know and did know all humans would sin. It would be extremely tragic if God knew that and then did not provide a solution to the problem, but He has provided a solution. The solution is not to keep from ever sinning, because that is not possible, but to provide a way both to be forgiven of the sin and to keep from sinning, again. All that is required is man to allow God to do that for him.

God establishing a means for humans to develop Godly love is almost beyond imagination, now the fact that the means includes every adult mature individual sinning at least one time is not beyond reason and it is certainly not beyond what we see, experience, and read. God allowing for humans to sin is not tempting them to sin, rules, free will humans and satan being around is all that is needed to sin.

Originally Posted by patman
You place the fll responsibility of our current state on God, who looked at this, and created it anyway. You say "God couldn't resist creating us even knowing the sinners and sins that would come about with 100% certainty." And worst, you say "It was for the best." And even worst, you say "he even arranged it to happen."

No, I place the state of things on human’s inability and the fact that there is no way to have that ability prior to sinning. I do think as part of God nature “love”, He has to be serving others. The cross was in the works from the beginning of time. Now, God might also want to make beings like Himself (Godly love), which creates the problem of free will, which the creates the problem of sin, which creates a need for forgiveness, and so on. God seems to have been working on this issue for a long time.

Originally Posted by patman
You look at our future in heaven, you see it coming. Indeed, you realize that God will be powerful enough to make it the happy place we have faith in. But you don't see that it is the happy place is the very place you preach against. Your message is that it cant be worth while without sin because without sin there can be no Agape love in heaven.

There is a big difference between having a place to develop Godly love and the place where you can express the Godly love you have developed, without fear, all the time.

Originally Posted by patman
According to you, the first round, God couldn't bestow Agape love on his creation without sin. So he gave us sin that we might understand it. Now this second time, sin will not be required because we will magically be able to agape love without sin. God will do the second time(the recreation of heaven and earth) what he "forgot" to do the first time(allow us to understand and exercise agape love without need for sin)? God will do what he "gracefully didn't" do the first time?

I do not know what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by patman
What is your answer bling? Why didn't God just give us understanding of love that he wanted us to have when it was always possible for him to do it? Why didn't God allow us to grasp it without sin the first time? And why make it a two round creation, one that sin rips apart, and one that sin has no part of, and love be possible for both, only one requires sin and the other doesn't?

I explained before: God cannot place Godly love in our hearts without us deciding to receive it. If God does it without our permission then that love is not Godly love, it is not the human’s free will choice. Accepting God’s forgiveness (Godly love) appears to be at least one way to get it, that has been the way every human has ever gotten Godly love, and I can think of no other way. From there love can grow through serving needy people and obedience to God.

Originally Posted by patman
Why not just do the right thing the first time and not require sin for the understanding of love? He can do it, he has the power. Why cause this suffering for loves sake by sin, when it isn't even necessary? How can you say God does that?

Because you believe that God would do evil that good may come of it.

I have explained this.

Originally Posted by patman
To you, God wasn't strong enough to stop himself from creating a world like this. With his future knowledge, he looked ahead and was content with the world. And he saw 9/11, the holocaust, the death marches, the disease and hunger, pain and hurt and saw an small spark in it all and you must believe that HE said, "I will create earth, and it will indeed be wicked, as I am the LORD, it will be wicked. Yet for this one small spark I will do it, for I cannot stop myself.

"I know I hate evil, and I know billions and billions of my children will suffer because I created them. Indeed, as Jesus will one day say, it would be better that they had never been born once they see the hell I will send them too.

"I know I will regret creating man on the earth, and will be grieved in my heart that I created him.

"However, I will create it knowing it will all fall apart, then I will step in in a mighty way and do what I should have done the first time. Create something that will be perfect forever. But the first time I do it, I will cause it to fall apart with sin. Then the second time, only a few will enjoy the love, the small spark that I foresaw. And those who fall will have fallen because of the sin I arranged him to commit."

I do not think any foreknowledge is needed to realize what would happen and we know the cross was always in the plan. Heaven was also always in the plan.

Originally Posted by patman
Bling, that is evil. Reject that thinking!! Instead, say "God created us as a universe full of light, for he made it all perfect; even Satan was perfect at creation! But it had freewill, a choice to love or to hate, and the future wasn't foreseeable, so God didn't know all that darkness would happen. He expected nothing but good, but instead got evil. And the light fell into darkness from it's own freewill, for God caused nothing to happen that is sinful. But all will be well again one day, when God separates the darkness from the light, and the light will shine forever apart from the darkness. Then, when God recreates what we messed up, the light will be together, and all will be right."

Bling, Even Jesus recognizes some are better off not being born! Do you challenge him?

Mark 14:21
"The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

Jesus said it this kind of thing on other occasions too. He knows that It would be better if sinners had never been born, for the hell they know is real.

You say, “He expected nothing but good,” yet the cross was always in the plan. I am saying, I think God could and did think it out more then that.
Jesus knew we were all at one time sinners and yes it would be better for those that do not have their sins forgiven to have never been born.

Originally Posted by patman
Don't miss the point, bling. God created good, and expected good. Instead he got bitterness, and the bitterness was unexpected and undesired. Don't say that the bitterness God got was really sweetness. Don't be like those silly children I told Rob about!

Isaiah 5
1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:

My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “ And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?

God's expectations are real. If he thinks something will happen, he really thinks something will happen. This message is to Israel, it is about how God planted them, how he expected them to be good, but were evil instead. But it is also about the world. God planted the world. He expected it to bring forth Good grapes. But instead, look at all the wickedness.

God did everything right to prevent the wild grapes! He didn't go behind his own back and plant them!! How awful to say that of God, the loving God, who saved us!

God obviously expected better for us. And he obviously planned for the worst too. And in his love, he gave us Christ. Yet you say in his love he gave us sin?????? It was for the best??????????

God did everything right and good, and did absolutely the best that could be done. Sin came by way of Satan and human selfishness (lack of Godly love).

Originally Posted by patman
Bling, I must echo to you what I told Rob. You ignore the rest of creation to trust in the ideas you have. You ignore the human's who died before they could sin. And the thousands and thousands of angels who never sinned, and say they can't love God without sinning. You claim our objective is founded through agape love only possible by sin, and yet they never sin. According to you, countless millions of people never reached their objective because they live in a place where sin is not.

Their love for God isn't good enough according to you, because it doesn't have the understanding that comes from Grace. But their love is good enough! Because of their faithfulness, they have wonderful gifts that we will never know or understand! To love God is good, no matter if you require Grace or not.

Now angels are a whole different subject. We will never know until we get to heaven, how it worked for them and we do not need to know now.
As far as those humans that went on before ever having the opportunity to develop Godly love. We really know very little about them, can you find scripture that address those that die before needing a savior, before sinning. I do not. I can only speculate. I will say, I do not feel all beings in heaven have to have developed Godly love, their can be those with a child to extremely loving parent type love, that can continue to be served for what they provided on earth by those that have developed Godly love.

Originally Posted by patman
Bling. Again I say, turn from your thoughts that sin is good and for the best and a part of God's objective in the Garden, and that sin is required for agape love. It is truly wrong.

Sin is not good. Sin is also very prevalent. We know God at least considered it a part of human activity. What do you think, I should tell the nonbeliever concerning sin?

 

[patman]

Bling

Bling

Bling, in words, you say "sin is bad." But in message, you are calling it good and necessary. No matter how much you saw sin is bad, your message will always say otherwise.

Every single person on that thread said it in verious ways. It was only 8 pages long, I read it all, and they all saw your message was promoting sin. I am sorry, but you are preaching the necessity of sin.

How is that different from me? I too say God allowed us to sin, but I do not say sin was necessary. We could have resisted sin and still know what Godly love is. According to you, no one would know Godly love without sin.

So for my message, sin is only an option, not a requirement, for love.

Your message, sin is a requirement for love.

Well the logical conclusin to your message is "if sin leads to love, let us sin more" because "love is good"

Thus, you are calling evil good.

O.V.'ers do not run into this problem ever concerning the creation story. S.V'ers can't run from it. And that is why O.V. is worth considering.

-Pat

P.S. Bling, I do not wish to make this "personal." I never said anything against you until I uncovered your message and exposed it. You may have missed the post where I tried to show what the effects were from your message, go look for yourself. That is why I came across so hard.

 

[patman]

Rob

Rob

Genesis 3:22

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

What does this verse mean? Specifically 'The man has now become like one of us.....'.

Gen 3:5
"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Gen 3
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened

Genesis 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Eating of the tree was the way man to gain wisdom about right and wrong. Before eating of the tree, they relied on God to tell them what was right and wrong and trusted him. Once they gained it for theirselves, they in effect were rejecting God's wisdom for their own.

This passage just shows how they became "gods" for theirselves. They were even more like god in their understanding of good AND EVIL. Knowing what evil is is what introduced all of us to more sin. For sin is sin when it knows it is sin.

For the law exposes what sin is, but sin takes that oppertunity to multiply itself. So the good knowledge of knowing what evil is can lead to sin taking advantage of the knowledge.

That is the gist of what I get out of this. I see no design, no intent, no planning on Adam sinning. I see it as "that's how it happened." Not as "That's how it had to happen."

Designing Adam to sin and allowing Adam to sin are two different things.

And again I say that designing Adam to sin makes the designer a sinner. Sorry, but that is how it is.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Pat,

Pat: I apply that God does not know 100% of the future because he is unable to foresee that he will not drive out these nations at the time he said he would.

Is this the promise you are referring to?

Deuteronomy 9:3 "Know therefore today that it is the Lord your God who is crossing over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and He will subdue them before you, so that you may drive them out and destroy them quickly, just as the Lord has spoken to you."

But if we do not know what the Lord is referring to as what he "has spoken to you," we can't know if this is conditional. And the Septuagint doesn't even have "quickly," so this word "quickly" is not absolutely certain here.

And in the translation above indeed, it seems there is a condition, "so that you may drive them out," not "so that you will drive them out."

Where is there an unconditional promise made about driving them out?

Joshua 3:10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites.

God will do it, most certainly! And he did, those nations are not there any more.

Pat: God Changes his mind in the very same verse:

Num 14:11-12 Then the LORD said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? 12 I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.” 19-20 “Pardon the iniquity of this people, I pray, according to the greatness of Your mercy, just as You have forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.” 20 Then the LORD said: “I have pardoned, according to your word..."

So then this was conditional? You must show that this was unconditional, in order to make your conclusion here that God changed his mind, and then we have to ask, why did God not think Moses would pray for God to pardon them?

Moses had prayed for God to pardon them time and again, why did God not think that Moses would pray again, this time?

The ability to do good is greater than the ability to see the future.

Certainly, but saying "I will certainly do this," and then not doing it, saying "This is sure," when it isn't, and you know that it isn't certain, is not good. It is lying, and God cannot lie, he will not speak falsely.

Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

And God will not be there, but he would be, if he lies, "all liars" will be there...

Blessings,
Lee