Thank you for getting back. This has taken some time for me also.
Patman said:
Please allow me to write what I believe your thinking is, correct me if I am wrong: The object of the garden was to establish agape love. With that being said, what is the best way to show agape love? By having a world that puts people in need, such that they have the best understanding of love. This idea can be derived from the verse that says "he who is forgiven much loves much." among others.
If this sums it up, please allow me to add some more statements to that. If the object of the garden was for good, the bad that came from it is worth while. This frees God from any part played in the situation. Do you agree with these points? Is that how you try to explain the Garden to your agnostic friends if so?
The Garden, will not produce Agape Love (Godly type Love) and God could easily realize that. Godly type love has always been and always will be the human objective for each of us. The Garden showed us all including Adam and Eve a system that will not work, but one, we all wish would have worked and it become what we can look forward to, in heaven with a different body and objective. It did not hurt Adam and Eve to be there for as long as they were, it established the type of closeness God desires for humans, how God would like us to live (in a paradise), how much humans need help against Satan and sin, how tempting sin is, how we need forgiveness, how we can expect to sin without the Spiritual (indwelling) help, and how we need to be doing Godly loving things (sacrificing what we worked hard at producing) for others, so our Godly love can grow.
Patman said:
I have said all along that Agape love is achievable without a fall. Had Adam never ate of the tree, agape love could still be enjoyed by God and Man alike. I also questioned a while back why Agape love is the one and only love desired by God and the only love possible as the objective to the garden. Why are other loves just ignored? After all, a relationship is built on many types of loves. Also, agape love requires no relationship to be given or received.
I do not think agape love (Godly type love) could have been achieved by humans on earth without the individual sinning, unless he/she had deity dwelling in them (like Christ). That is one of the things Christ showed us and needed to show us to prepare us for the Spirit (another subject). Godly love was not achieved with the best human representatives the human race could ever have and has not been achievable by the billions that followed without sin and forgiveness of sin (other then Christ). I keep asking: “How do you get around all the unbelievable wonderful direct and indirect results that happen with your first sin?” God would realize that.
The question of Godly love verse other loves:
1. Does the command: : “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.” Jesus said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” Still apply to us today? And was it always understood to apply to everyone? And if not understood was it always God’s desire?
2. If that love is defined by Christ in all His words, all His actions and on the cross. And using Paul’s 1 Cor. 13 to verbalize it definition. Then this love takes all (even if all means the vast majority) it leaves all other love a small portion of what you are doing and what you are doing has to be mainly Godly loving God. So how can you do anything good without Godly loving as the main portion of what you are doing?
3. Adam and Eve would and I think did love God like good children love a very wonderful parent, which is great, but it is not: unconditional, a (chosen) well thought out decision with real likely alternatives, sacrificial, selfless, committed, requiring forgiving/acceptance of forgiveness and all consuming love. That is the love God has for them, but they will not see that, they would see a parent that is responsible for them, since He made them and they being all good, not deserving anything less then the best especially since it cost God nothing out of His infinite supply. A child type love for even a wonderful parent will not keep them from disobeying that parent eventually, which they did. That also brings up another love, they had, that surpassed their love at the time for God, and that was husband and wife love. We really see that with Adam’s sin and not Eve’s sin. Adam had by naming all the animals come to the obvious decision that Eve was the best he could ever have. Adam seems to have enough time with Eve to develop a very close relationship, which is good as long as it does not exceed the relationship with God. Satan would easily have picked up on this. When Eve offered the fruit to Adam, he could easily realize he was going to loss Eve which at the time was more then he could handle (it was not off set by his love for God), he had to join her and stay with her at any price. Many today develop similar type love, while God wants us to love our spouse out of our love for Him.
4. God could easily make beings that love every other way without having to create a whole universe for that purpose. God has created animals that naturally love their parents and will do all kinds of things for them. Ants love the queen ant, robots can be made that do all kinds of wonderful things for you. Eagles love their spouse.
5. The only way Adam and Eve could have succeeded is with Godly type love, but that could not have been given them (programmed into them) directly without taking away Adam’s and Eve’s choices (one of the requirements of Godly love), so how in the Garden could they develop it?
6. None Godly love produces the wrong results, which is what we see in the Garden.
Patman said:
Lets say I have an important meeting to get to. If I miss it, I will get fired. But on my way I see a stranger drowning in a pool, what would I do?? I would gladly throw him a life-saver. I love him enough to do that, selfless of my needs. He would grab on, I would pull him in, he would say, "Thanks," and I would answer, "No Problem," and that would be the extent of it. I may never see him again. No relationship was required for that act of love. However, if that man were my son, there would me more kinds of love involved, and a relationship would be a part of the act.
The reason you should help is your relationship with the Lord, your Godly loving for God is your motive and your purpose, for doing everything. You can offer up your sacrificial love for a fellow human as worship to God.
Patman said:
A relationship with God is far greater than just agape love. God can agape love me all day long, but so what if he never gets to talk to me? If the objective were only agape love, God was selling himself short, and us also.
God spoke everything into existence, so how could God not be speaking to us, since we are surrounded by his word? I am hard pressed to think of anything that is not the product of God’s love for me, can you help me?
God is doing a lot of stuff, but is it not guided by His love for us?
Can agape love be exchanged with out both a giver and a willing receiver?
Patman said:
Don't get me wrong, Agape love is necessary. But it is a part of the bigger picture. The overall goal of God's creation of man was not primarily Agape love. God desires relationship. And in that relationship all kinds of love are felt and exchanged, including agape.
If we are to agape/ Godly type love God with
all our heart, soul, mind and energy, what is left after these alls, we get to agape love others like Christ loves us (look what He did for us!!!). Where do I find the time to do anything else?
Patman said:
So what do I think? I think the objective of the garden was to provide man a place to develop his relationship with God. Be it an extremely close relationship, or one less close than others, it was man's choice.
Where does it say that?
I see it as being, exactly what it was and what it became.
Patman said:
God is so loving in his relationship to man, that he does not trap man, but provides a way out should man want out. And that is where the tree comes in.
Where does it say the tree was there to keep from trapping man?
Where does it say Adam and Eve wanted out?
Where is their action ever described as being more then a sin, like any other sin we might do? Sin separates us from God.
Do you see Satan reminding Eve that the tree is the way out or do you see Satan lying to Eve that the tree is not a way out?
The Bible gives the motive for Eve’s action very specifically: “6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.” Where does the Bible say this wanting out motivation?
Do you not see coveting of the fruit and lusting after the fruit as being very similar to sins we commit?
When you sin do you think of all the consequences, do you do it as a rebellion toward God, as wanting to go to Hell, as wanting to follow Satan, spitting in the eye of Christ, etc. or are you deceived, lied to, coveting, lusting, and get trapped into sinning, like Eve?
Patman said:
I hope you can understand my one huge problem with the settled view, and that is that - God foresaw the evil his creation became and did it anyway. According to the reasioning behind your view on the garden, you reason it away with "it was for the best" because "it was for agape love." So God lovingly created us to rebel against him, such that all man on earth would be destroyed by a flood say for 4 and their families, and then countless millions to follow.
I do not try to add or take anything away from the Garden, and where do you see my conclusions clouding my interpretations. I just try to describe what I see, and know from other scripture and my own experiences about God, Satan, sin, coveting, lust , love, time, and people. What am I missing in understanding?
You can not seem to take your rational justification, for God allowing an extremely horrible, tragic, situation in Christ going to the cross, and use a similar rational justification for God allowing Satan to roam the earth or God allowing people to sin, so what is the difference?
Patman said:
When people ask the questions of the Garden, they look at their own lives, and lives of those they hold close to them. They feel the effects of the garden to this day, and question God because they think he looked ahead to their lives, knew everything that would happen, all the bad things, and didn't care, and said "let's create this anyway."
That happens with the OV and SV, foreknowledge is not needed for the Garden situation, God should have realized giving humans an infinite amount of time, allowing them to be on their own, Satan lying, giving people everything they want (spoiling them), and putting a very tempting fruit easy to get to = humans sinning. Everyone winds up coveting after a while just look at Paul in Rms. 7.
Patman said:
You had some problems with my ideas. I hope to show you that many of our problems are not real because they lack being fully thought and rely on misunderstandings:
I just like to be able to explain it to others.
1. He seems to not understand ecology very will, if this Garden is to potentially to support a large number of people for a long time, it is not ecologically balanced, will require constant monitoring and continuous changing. It appears to be a set up for a very few people for a short period of time.
Patman said:
You assume the Garden was small. There is no way to know how big it was. As I said, people would eventually outgrow it, and In my thinking, this is the functionality of the tree. Those who were ready could eat of it and receive wisdom for when they leave. Also, the Garden is alive. Why is it unable to grow and populate the earth as people are? Are the garden's trees seedless? There is too much to consider that I think you should. If man never fell, is God unable to make a place for his children if the garden is too small? What if man populated to 900 trillion and never fell? Is God unable to create a new earth, or make the existing one bigger?
God could keep a head of the situation is not the question, except how do you keep the tree convenient to everyone? The Garden appears to be just right and needing no changes for what did happen, so God is very lucky or did He figure something out?
2. He does understand probability, if you have even a small possibility of a negative out come but repeat the circumstance an infinite number of times (eternally) you will eventually get a negative reaction. Adam and Eve will eventually sin.
Patman said:
If a drug pusher carries a gun everyday, is he guaranteed to shoot it? If a severe diabetic goes out to eat everyday is he guaranteed to order coke? It is impossible to answer because you know that there are drug pushers out there who do not kill, and there are diabetics out there who drink only diet coke. So odds are, either can happen. The point is that there is no guarantee. Adam and Eve were not destined to sin, that has been my understanding and belief from long before I was an open viewer. If all I had to do was not eat a tree's fruit to stay in good with God, I do not think it would have been a problem. I say that for many people I know, including you.
You can't tell me you can't pass up one tree? When you know that it will kill you? And when you know you will leave God in your death? No more eden, no more Eve no more God.... Can you really say you would still eat?
Yes.
What makes you think Adam and Eve thought about all that when they sinned, any scripture support?
I keep asking the same questions that anyone would ask. I myself, use to think Adam and Eve were not destined to sin, but that does not seem logical to me today.
Patman said:
Adam's evil was great the day he ate that fruit. More evil than anyone I ever heard of. It was a simple command, and look what he caused. And even then, God loved him enough to give him clothes! And he showed him how to deliver babies. He was taking care of him until he was ready to go it alone.
If Adam’s sin was truly the greatest by far, why does the Bible not describe it that way?
Why is it called sin like my sin?
Would Adam have had to do some great deed to get forgiveness?
How do you think God compares Adam’s sin with the sin you last did?
Why is everyone else’s sin so much greater then mine?
When has any person ever been able to stand up against Satan, alone? Why does it matter how many commands you have if the one most likely command you will fail to obey is the one command given?
If you had just one command and that being “do not covet” could you obey it without the Spirit’s help?
I see Eve being tricked and lusting into sinning and Adam having a stronger love for Eve then God, so how is that sin any worse then any other sin?
Patman said:
Adam may have not realized what he did fully, but he knew his actions would bring death, and he did it the same. The death count of Hitler's actions has nothing on Adam's actions. And we are so harsh on Hitler... Adam's sin was worst. And God was fair, Adam could resist the tree for a zillion times had he not desired his own wisdom instead of Gods... But Adams desires made him evil.
Where does the Bible say one sin is greater then another?
Why do we think others should not have fallen to temptation when we fall in other ways?
Hitler sinned like I sin. The reason there will still be people in this world 20 years from now (assuming the Lord does not come) that have not seen an up close Christ filled person pleading to help them, is because I did not start being a truly Christ like person 14 years ago. Do you realize the power that is yours today? Christ method of evangelizing the world was extremely simple and needing very little. All you have to do is from your small group of students (4-12 let us say) average one individual like yourself per year that can develop his own small group and/or split your group and in 34 years you run out of people on earth. So, who has done more damage? Thanks for the grace of God.
Patman said:
You are confusing opportunity for desire. Just because the opportunity is there one can not assume that someone will take it, even if that opportunity is there every day.
Will, if there is a slight % chance of them taking it then eventually they will, if their being presented the option. Now, knowing what I know about people, Satan, sin, temptation, coveting, love, and time without knowing about the out come, I think I would have given them, maybe a month without sin. What you are suggest is God would have given them a possible zero chance of sinning to be there forever, when they seemed to have lasted less then a year. I see God as being much smarter then that.
3. He does not understand coveting, if you present a convenient and attractive item to people that is desirable and do not give them the indwelling Spirit to help them control that desire, the people will start to covet. Coveting takes place in the mind and humans can not control their thoughts all the time. It is an extremely difficult frustrating situation for humans.
Patman said:
It is only in the last 2000 years that God has sent the spirit to dwell in us. He was with people before then, but not like now. We in the body have a special gift, but those who were before did not have this Gift like we do.
So for a good 4000 years, people who covet were out of control because God's spirit was not poured out until Pentecost?
Do we agree that God realized at least after the Garden, all people besides Adam and Eve that reach the age of accountability will sin?
When do you think God realized that?
Patman said:
You are right to study the cross and apply it to your life. But you are mistaken if you try to apply that law to the lives of those who lived before it. They were under a different law. They did not have the spirit living in them as we do. While it is true that Jesus' death did save them, they were not under grace, they were under the law. And before the law was written, they were under the laws of their hearts, which came from the tree. You cannot say that God was not understanding of coveting, or any other sin.
This is not an open view topic. Law and Grace are explained very well in the Bible. You should know how it works. So why say this of God?
This is another whole subject, but let me address one thing “, they were not under grace, they were under the law.”
The law saved no one!!!! If anyone was or is saved it is by grace!!! God knew that and presented it, in word, stories, examples, and in their hearts.
1. Psalm 32:1
[ Of David. A maskil. ] Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Psalm 32:1-3 (in Context) Psalm 32 (Whole Chapter)
2. Psalm 79:9
Help us, O God our Savior, for the glory of your name; deliver us and forgive our sins for your name's sake.
Psalm 79:8-10 (in Context) Psalm 79 (Whole Chapter)
3. Psalm 103:3
who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases,
Psalm 103:2-4 (in Context) Psalm 103 (Whole Chapter)
4. Isaiah 33:24
No one living in Zion will say, "I am ill"; and the sins of those who dwell there will be forgiven.
Isaiah 33:23-25 (in Context) Isaiah 33 (Whole Chapter)
5. Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
Jeremiah 31:33-35 (in Context) Jeremiah 31 (Whole Chapter)
6. Jeremiah 33:8
I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me.
Jeremiah 33:7-9 (in Context) Jeremiah 33 (Whole Chapter)
7. Jeremiah 50:20
In those days, at that time," declares the LORD, "search will be made for Israel's guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare.
Jeremiah 50:19-21 (in Context) Jeremiah 50 (Whole Chapter)
8. Hosea 14:2
Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips.
Hosea 14:1-3 (in Context) Hosea 14 (Whole Chapter)
And there are many more. Check out John the Baptist. The people before, Christ on earth, could easily understand their depending on God’s grace for salvation for nothing else works.
4. He does not understand Godly love. People are not born with Godly love and can’t be programmed with it. It will have to be developed and the Garden does not provide the means for that development.
Patman said:
You again narrow God's love to agape love only, and limit the relationship aspect. The Garden was obviously a perfect sinless place. You make it sound like it was created to be broken so that a few people might have "godly love". I saw it was created to be sustained forever! That everyone might know God and experience a relationship that includes many types of love. The fact that Adam broke it has nothing to do with God or his understanding of the situation when God did not foresee it happening. And the fact that God planned for the "just in case" shows how much God did understand.
Does the Bible say this was a, “just in case plan”?
Does the Bible say God had no idea Adam and Eve would sin?
You are saying God did not anticipate with accuracy what will happen, but did have a plan in place if sin did happen. And I am saying, God could figure out sin would happen and made it part of the over all plan. It does not sound like much difference, but it has a great reflection on God. My God would allow sin, so: the tree location, the quality of the fruit, the fruit’s value, Satan’s location and position, the lie used, the timing, the protection provided to Adam and Eve by God, and God’s reaction, all fit. My God would have only one best plan for man, yet still allow it to be man’s choice.
I have a problem with your reason if God was not expecting them to sin for: the placement of the tree, the quality of the fruit, the location of Satan, the lack of protection from Satan provided by God, how long Adam and Eve would have to remain in this tenuous situation, the lie Satan used, the motivation, and God not giving all of us a similar chance.
5. He does not understand people. Giving people everything they would need and want does not automatically produce Godly love. People can be your close friend, love you like a father, and feel very indebted to you, but that will not keep them from have a little selfishness.
Patman said:
God never spoiled man. God only provided their food and shelter. Man should have felt indebted because it is only right, had man not felt so, he would have been unappreciative. That is not the point tho... So what, God does everything good for man. Now it's man's turn, and that is the reason... will man love God or not?
“God only provided their food and shelter” this was paradise, no weeds or varmint, He gets to name every animal (I know biologist who give there right arm to name one species) and Gardening without lacking anything or having any weeds. The question is how do you get rid of selfishness?
Do you see man’s sin as a lack of some type of love for God?
6. He does not understand Satan. Satan is much more powerful then humans, he is the trickster and can play on human selfishness with lies to get them to do what they really do not want to do.
Patman said:
Satan did not threaten man to eat. God understood Satan very well, and the limitations he had. He could not force them to eat, he could not make the decision for them. He could only confuse the issue. And if you think Adam wasn't smart enough to discern between the words of a Snake and the words of his creator, you are mistaken. Adam's responsibility was fully his own. I think it is you who over estimate Satan, and our ability to resist evil.
Satan can do more then confuse the issue. You think Job would say that? Lies can do more then, confuse the issue, they can totally miss lead you. Satan does not want you to be confused; he wants to give you answers (his wrong answer to be believed). Who ever lied to Eve before Satan did, so why not believe the lie? Stroking your ego is more then being confusing.
I have in the past only been guilty of underestimating the power of Satan, you are the first to say over estimated. The more people I council, more scripture I study, and the more I look at my life the more powerful Satan appears. It is not that I feel I’m fighting a losing battle, because I am not with the Spirit at my side. Results are what count and Satan got Eve and through Eve, Adam to both sin. Satan has a perfect record with everyone except Christ. He is patient, clever, beautiful, and seems to be almost everywhere.
7. He does not understand sin. People get caught up in sin with Satan’s help without thinking about all the consequences. For humans not to sin takes a lot more then humans have. Every mature human will sin and He does not realize that.
Patman said:
God understands sin and man's tendency, that is why he only holds man accountable for those actions he knowingly does wrong, and more of the reason why there is grace in the love God has for us. It is the same answer you would give me.
When did God understand all adult humans would sin, is the question?
8. He does not realize that humans will be better off outside the Garden after they do sin, then inside the Garden having to keep from sinning.
Patman said:
Bling, may you never fully understand what you are saying, that we are better off today than we would be if we were with God in the Garden. You, yourself, said the garden is like heaven to you. It is a place we will one day go for piece. No more sin, no more hurt, no more death. A wonderful place. When I get there I will look for you. And I will offer you this: If you really think we are better off after the fall, then leave heaven, go back in time and live on earth. I don't think you'll do it..
“go back in time”, so you do think it is possible!
It all depends on the objective I have! If the objective is for me, in human form, to develop Godly type love even in heaven, then I want to be on earth in this situation, but if the object is for me to take the Godly love I have developed in a new form and use it to love God and other beings in heaven then I’m ready.
Adam and Eve showed us, the Garden is a poor place to develop Godly love.
Patman said:
You are right too. The Garden is like Heaven will be one day. It is like Earth will be one day too. But it is not like heaven and earth are today. For there is pain in both heaven and earth because of this great and wonderful giving in to sin you seem to endorsee.
This is something for latter discussion.
Patman said:
I say 1 year in the garden and of resisting sin is billions of times better off than what we have today. You do not see the sins that happen, the rapes, the killings, the beatings, the hurtful words, the betrayal and all that other sin. You think this is better of?
Yes.
I see all the sin and tragedies around me as opportunities to show the contrast of God’s goodness, to allow Christ to help others through me, and to serve others. It fits my purpose.
Patman said:
I say we had Grace in the garden and out of the garden. You say it is only out of the garden that we have it.
If grace includes forgiveness then there is no grace in the Garden, because there is no forgiveness.
Patman said:
I say God holds us accountable to sins we knowingly commit. This is why it is the tree that represented the one chance, the one sin, to let us out of that heaven on earth we had.
Where does it say, Adam and Eve were motivated to sin by wanting a way out?
That is not the reason they gave to God, so did they lie to God, because it is not said to be a lie and it is not what Satan used to tempt Eve and the explanation for her sinning in scripture is: When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.”
Patman said:
bling, may you never have to see the hardships that you seem to think make us better off. You will never stop your eyes from being wet if you do. But if you did see them, you would never again say we are better off.
Let me tell you were I learned about Godly love: Raleigh State Prison for young men (14-20), this were you landed when your kicked out of reform school or your crimes were to heinous. The prison was run by gangs, the guards could be paid $10.00 to look the other way. There were some who entered bad, but soon found Christ changed their ways and got early parole, “they went to school” the guards and warden didn’t know, but every prisoner knew they were still the same person. There were those that arrived promising granny to be a good Christian, they carried their Bibles, said they were Christians, but the sneaks and snitches watch them. They saw what shows they watched, what jokes they laughed at, how they spent their time, who they hung with, how much they read they studied and told everything to the heavies. Prisoners know what it is to be like Christ to the death. Those kids did not last under pressure. Then there were those that were real, they hung close, rarely alone, didn’t laugh at the dirty jock, worked when the guards were not watching, made good grades, didn’t watch any TV, study their Bibles hours in groups each night, were always talking about spiritual things, jumped into the middle of a beating to take the licks, share all they had with everyone, hated by the guards for trying to teach them and disturbing the equilibrium, and they did not cave under pressure. These were mostly converts from gangs slaves and bullies, the slaves were wanted back, by especially by his daddy and the bullies were now open for attack from other gangs wanting pay-back, both came with nothing, including no weapons. Someone had to switch sleeping places with them until the guards allowed the move, there were barracks separating the different gangs. The 40 or so Christian slept in a barrack of 60 young men, so one replaced the new convert so the new convert could sleep. The “Mature” Christian would not be sleeping though, he had no covers, pillow, or mattress and would at least have his clothes taken that night. The nights were Hell. Everyone had there turn to hold the line, especially after the Christian leader of the group left or was killed the heavies would seek out the weakest link. Heads were smashed, arms broke, and lots of cuts were par for the week. Each week for one hour 4 or 5 volunteer Sunday school teachers would come in. The lesson had been discussed for about 40 hours prior by some very Spirit lead prisoners. This was no ordinary class, 4 or 5 groups of 10 committed Christians and 5 other inmates. The prisoners wanted to know how Christians applied the lesson, on the other side of the wall, most volunteers could not handle the barrage of questioning and were short lived, but others were strong and could lead them.
The Christian prisoners leave in a box, moved to the adult prison, or are paroled back to their home town and parents. The box can be the best way out. A lot of time each day is spent praying for those that went and are going to the adult prison, there are stories of survival and also really bad stuff. Being paroled back to a small home town with a small church, with no daily intense fellowship is culture shock in reverse. They can really miss the prison life.
I was one of the sorry volunteers that did not last long and sat in shock each week. Their Christianity was a quantum leap beyond me. That was the worst place I have ever been to and tried to share Christ (I have been in the mission field and worked with street kids), yet it produced extremely rapidly the greatest Christians I have ever known some are missionaries in some of the worst places today, one got his PhD in theology ( Bill Searcy) and is in Kenya.
Where have you found the fast place to grow in Godly love?
Patman said:
This is hell on earth. No Garden means hell on earth, bling. I do not understand how you justify this.
This Hell on Earth is exactly the place my example showed me how to live. I have no example of good people living right any other place. Maybe Joseph, Daniel, Abraham and David lived life correctly at least some of the time in luxury, but most of what we hear about them is under stressful times. The NT really talks about Christians doing will under stress.
Patman said:
When we actually have Heaven on earth again, I hope you do not say we were better off before.
This can be discussed later.
Patman said:
Think about all the baby's who are aborted every day. Millions of people who never had the chance to experience Sin on earth. Never had the opportunity to receive the indwelling because they went straight to heaven. According to you, they are cursed for not having the opportunity to sin in the flesh. They don't get agape love in heaven. How do you explain their ability to love god and to remain in heaven with him forever?
“Cursed” I did not say that!
“who never had the chance to experience Sin on earth.” The scriptures do not seem to address those that are safe and need not be saved. I am not saying the only beings in heaven are those that developed Godly love on earth. I can imagine being with just a Child to parent love being very happy in heaven and those with agape love serving them.
Patman said:
Bling, your views are based in scripture, but not to the means you take them. You are building your own rooms in the house that are not a part of Gods plan, you do so thinking you are right because you got the idea from God's plans, but they are still your own.
That is what we are trying to determine. We can not both be right, but we could both be wrong.
Patman said:
You should know that doing evil that good may come of it is still doing evil. And you should know that God shuns sin, and does not plan sin. He cannot tempt. He cannot create sin. He cannot make us to be sinners. He cannot look ahead knowing what we will do and create that anyway.
Evil is Evil. God can have nothing to do with sin (with the exception somehow of Christ baring our sins). God can not tempt us or be tempted.
That brings up the subject of God looking ahead (with or without foreknowledge) and knowing a person will sin:
1. Isaiah 52: 14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him [c]—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
We can read many prophecies of Christ talking about the torture and the cross, and this being known before even the garden, so if humans are to do this to Christ, God knows about it (somehow?) and is going to allow sin to happen.
2. Has God ever been wrong about sinning?
3. If as you say God was not sure Adam and Eve would sin, then how can He know everyone else will sin, or is that just an educated guess on His part?
1 John 1 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Patman said:
Alarms should be going off in your heart when you think that God would create us knowing we would sin. They should sound above the roaring of the sun's fires that God would have anything to do with sin and planning it into our discovery of love.
He is creating new humans each day that He knows will sin.
This might be easier for you to accept if you reasoned like Knight at least, in relation to the benefit of Satan. Sin is another step beyond that.
We agree I think: God knows people will sin, is willing to forgive sin, provided the sacrifice for sin, can forget our sins, loves people that have sinned and will send the Spirit to Christians after Christians have been forgiven of at least one sin, to allow them to stop sinning. From this we see God does a lot of stuff with sin.
The problem is not with sin, it is with the lack of agape love. There is a quick solution to sin (costly on God’s part), but developing Godly love is very difficult and takes everything He can do and we can do.
Patman said:
I beg you to reconsider that my ideas are not problematic because you cannot account for the solutions. And I beg you to reconsider if your ideas are as I said above.
Let me ask the same of you.
I'll laugh for two reasons, one, me and lee actually agree in something, and two, now you got two of us to deal with. Just kidding of course. Take care, RobE.
