Battle Talk ~ BR XI

[Primghar]

I see Primghar is AWOL... :think:

You didn't really think I would leave, did you?! Silly.

Well, I found Turbo's last post to be totally incoherent. He asked a bunch of questions that were irrelevant and he did not answer any of theo's questions to my satisfaction...Also, he really should have made an outline or something before he started this debate; it does not seem like he really has a plan. Messy!
Turbo--you did a lousy job!

I was impressed with Theo's explanation of "the relationship between God's judgment and our judgment." Well done, honey! And "pipe dream" made me laugh a lot. HA.

 

[Primghar]

Well.......I suppose you could argue that imprisonment is kinda like forgiveness in this way: Someone murders your whole family, and now, rather than getting what he deserves, YOU pay HIM your hard-earned dollars to keep him cool in the summer and warm in the winter, buy him a weight set, a lounge with a ping pong table and a TV that's better than yours, ....

Sounds like forgiveness to ME.

Why would you argue imprisonment is forgiveness in that way? That's dumb. (You need to practice your sarcasm.) And thank you for calling me nice :cloud9: . Anyway, you should probably read the Bible to figure out what forgiveness is, 'cause I think you might be a little confused.

 

[Primghar]

I just want to say one thing:

Israel was given the perfect Law, but She became more wicked than any of her surrounding Gentile countries. Having good laws is not a deterrent. People will still be just as wicked, if not more wicked, and will continue as ever in their depraved acts, just as in the case of Israel.

In this dispensation, Saints are to have no place judging those who are outside of the Church (1Cor.5:12), only those who are within.

But as to whether or not those who commit capital crimes should be given capital punishment, I say, make it painful, shameful, and swift. A sweet little "cocktail" in the forearm is far too sweet.

In the jungles of South America are gargantuan-sized ant beds. Throw in the child rapists and televise it for all the future child rapists to see. That's justice.


SS

You said you were only going to say one thing. You said more than one thing.

Your post is definitely in my top five list of stupid posts I have ever seen. People who rape children (or commit other crimes of that nature) need HELP! There is obviously a psychological problem going on there! Seeing other child rapists--eaten by ants?--is not going to stop any other child rapist. Heck, they would probably enjoy the sight just as much as a creep like you would enjoy it!! People who commit crimes like that need therapy, counseling, whatever! They do not change because they might "get in trouble." My goodness. You probably need some counselling as well.

 

[Primghar]

Great job Turbo. And thanks to everyone that make debates like this possible.

"The "Puzzling" Story of Karla Faye Tucker is Easily Solved"

Not only is the Karla Faye Tucker puzzle solved, Theo's whole debate is destroyed. Touche'-- with Luke 23.

"Theo's whole debate is destroyed"? That does not make any sense.How is the Tucker puzzle solved? Turbo said, "You [theo] say that the death penalty is not just." Which was completely wrong since theo said, multiple times, that it WAS JUST for EVERYONE. So, stupid!

And it was dumb of Turbo to say, "Paul warns fellow believers not to commit crimes for fear of being punished by governing authorities." He's getting that from Romans 13. But, Turbo needs to read more than just one verse every time he uses one in an argument. Paul is actually talking about submitting to the governing authorities.
And if you continue reading in chapter 13, he talks about paying taxes and not rebelling against the authorities. And the part of Turbo's post that I highlighted in red above made me really angry because Paul doesn't say not to commit crimes "for fear of being punished by governing authorities"!!! He says to SUBMIT to the authorities because they have been established by God!!!!!!
Verse 2 says, "Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves." Turbo conveniently quoted only verse 4 without (apparently) reading any of the rest of the chapter.

He is not even reading!!! NOW PAY ATTENTION ! Because chapter 13, verse 8 says : Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." Good job at ignoring the rest of the chapter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It talks about LOVE! LOVE! And the next chapter (14) talks about......NOT JUDGING! Wow....Paul seems to have had a plan when he wrote this, but he didn't intend for someone to just read one verse and twist it to fit their uses.
I was not happy with Turbo's post at all.
I am done now.

 

[Poly]

Do you agree that God authorized Governments to punish criminals?

Yes.

Perhaps you weren't paying attention to what Theo's Christian Ethics professor said:

“Patrick, forgiveness is not simply letting go of the offense, nor is it just forgetting as though it didn’t happen. Forgiveness is taking action of sin through Christ whose sacrifice condemns all sin effectively.”

So who are you to suggest that somebody be punished for their sin that Christ's sacrifice condemns effectively? Wouldn't they be better off just babysitting kids?

People who rape children (or commit other crimes of that nature) need HELP! .... People who commit crimes like that need therapy, counseling, whatever!

Exactly! For example, we could have them babysit kids....whatever!

Btw, you're being awfully rude and judgmental to many on this thread. Who are you to offer up any kind of judgment to those who's sins Christ has effectively condemned? God has shown His mercy toward them so why do you get to withhold yours?

 

[Primghar]

Perhaps you weren't paying attention to what Theo's Christian Ethics professor said:



So who are you to suggest that somebody be punished for their sin that Christ's sacrifice condemns effectively? Wouldn't they be better off just babysitting kids?



Exactly! For example, we could have them babysit kids....whatever!

Btw, you're being awfully rude and judgmental to many on this thread. Who are you to offer up any kind of judgment to those who's sins Christ has effectively condemned? God has shown His mercy toward them so why do you get to withhold yours?

I am confused by your post. Stop talking about babysitting kids. Anyway, I never said people should not be punished for the wrong they do; I just said we should not KILL them as a punishment.
I am merely stating what I actually think with my "rude and judgmental" comments. I will not apologize for my opinions. However, I did not intentionally hurt anyone's feelings. If I have, I am sincerely sorry.

I don't know what you are talking about when you say, "God has shown His mercy toward them so why do you get to withhold yours?" Throughout this debate I have been supporting the display of mercy toward those who do wrong. So, YOU are wrong when you say I am witholding mercy.
And your first question just confuses me: "Who are you to offer up any kind of judgment to those who's sins Christ has effectively condemned?" I am not sure what you are trying to say. It sounds like you are saying I should not judge those whose sins Christ has condemned. (I didn't realize I WAS judging them.) I agree that their sins are condemned--and effectively, no less. Other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about.

All in all, I think you have misinterpreted what I have written.

 

[Primghar]

I am confused by your post. Stop talking about babysitting kids. Anyway, I never said people should not be punished for the wrong they do; I just said we should not KILL them as a punishment.
I am merely stating what I actually think with my "rude and judgmental" comments. I will not apologize for my opinions. However, I did not intentionally hurt anyone's feelings. If I have, I am sincerely sorry.

I don't know what you are talking about when you say, "God has shown His mercy toward them so why do you get to withhold yours?" Throughout this debate I have been supporting the display of mercy toward those who do wrong. So, YOU are wrong when you say I am witholding mercy.
And your first question just confuses me: "Who are you to offer up any kind of judgment to those who's sins Christ has effectively condemned?" I am not sure what you are trying to say. It sounds like you are saying I should not judge those whose sins Christ has condemned. (I didn't realize I WAS judging them.) I agree that their sins are condemned--and effectively, no less. Other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about.

All in all, I think you have misinterpreted what I have written.

Actually, I think I misinterpreted YOUR post. Were you trying to say I am wrong because I answered "Yes" to the question, "Do you believe God gave governments the authority to punish criminals"? (Or something similar to that.) IF you were saying I am wrong for that, Fine, tell me I am wrong. I do not care. I have biblical support for my opinion. I actually stated it (some of it) in my former post about Turbo and his interpretation of Romans 13.

 

[Poly]

They do not change because they might "get in trouble."

Get back to me on that one if you ever have kids.

He is not even reading!!! NOW PAY ATTENTION ! Because chapter 13, verse 8 says : Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law." Good job at ignoring the rest of the chapter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It talks about LOVE! LOVE! And the next chapter (14) talks about......NOT JUDGING! Wow....Paul seems to have had a plan when he wrote this, but he didn't intend for someone to just read one verse and twist it to fit their uses.
I was not happy with Turbo's post at all.
I am done now.

I think you're really crossing the line to accuse Turbo of twisting anything to fit his "uses".
Paul goes on in the chapter to encourage us to do right by each other out of love. So what?

Part of this chapter is Paul explaining God's governing authorities and and in another part he explains how loving one another will help us to keep from doing them wrong.

Romans 13:1-8
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

So in verse 8 does Paul take back anything he said previously about governing authorities? When Paul says anything about how we should treat each other in love in anything he's ever written, I never remember him saying, "oh yeah and btw, guys, remember that issue I talked about concerning God's ministers of wrath? Since we're on the topic of love, just forget all that. I was wrong".

I certainly see no twising of words on Turbo's part.

 

[sentientsynth]

You said you were only going to say one thing. You said more than one thing.

Oops.

Your post is definitely in my top five list of stupid posts I have ever seen.

I'll wear it as a badge of honor.

People who rape children (or commit other crimes of that nature) need HELP! There is obviously a psychological problem going on there!

The apostle Paul says that governments bear the sword to punish evil-doers. Not that they have friendly, self-help, psycho-babble experts standing by.

Seeing other child rapists--eaten by ants?--is not going to stop any other child rapist.

You're right. I agree 100%. It will not prevent them from doing so. And that's not its intention.

Heck, they would probably enjoy the sight just as much as a creep like you would enjoy it!!

But for different reasons. They enjoy the pain of others out of their wickedness. I enjoy justice being served, the smoke of their torment, a sweet savour to my nostrils.

People who commit crimes like that need therapy, counseling, whatever!

Says who? Says you.

I, on the other hand, seek to have a Biblically-informed worldview. And in such there is abolutely no room at all for "grooming the good out of people." There is no good in people.

The operation you seek to work in the wicked is a merely the washing off of a pig. The forced expulsion of vomitus from the soured stomach of a dog. But as pig returns to wallow in the mire, and the dog returns to his vomit for the more enjoyment thereof, so your "patient" is still just as depraved as he ever was and ever will be.

Your "therapy, counseling, whatever" cannot change a goat into a lamb. It cannot change a pig into a sheep. You cannot use you man-made techniques to cleanse a person from wickedness. That is in the hand of God alone.

They do not change because they might "get in trouble."

I agree.

My goodness.

[
YOUR goodness. Why does your user column read "Christian"?

You probably need some counselling as well.

you don't need what you already got.

 

[Primghar]

[
YOUR goodness. Why does your user column read "Christian"?

Umm...because that is the category that best describes me.

 

[Primghar]

I certainly see no twising of words on Turbo's part.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Primghar]

Get back to me on that one if you ever have kids.

You are assuming that I don't have kids.

 

[Sharri]

From reading both sides of the debate I would have to side with Turbo, I do understand where Theo is coming from.

 

[Poly]

You are assuming that I don't have kids.

Yes.

Of course I must admit, my assumption could be wrong. Parents usually know that kids, most always, will change (from bad behavior to good) when they know they will "get in trouble" if they don't. That is if the "trouble" they get is painfu...er... "memorable" enough and the parent isn't carrying out an idle threat.

 

[Primghar]

Yes.

Of course I must admit, my assumption could be wrong. Parents usually know that kids, most always, will change (from bad behavior to good) when they know they will "get in trouble" if they don't. That is if the "trouble" they get is painfu...er... "memorable" enough and the parent isn't carrying out an idle threat.

Yeah, and I would care, but kids have nothing to do with any of this. They are not the ones committing capital offenses. And how they would react to "memorable" punishment is not the same way an adult would react. Kids are a lot easier to mold. So, I don't want to talk about this, 'cause it isn't relevant.

 

[Poly]

Yeah, and I would care, but kids have nothing to do with any of this. They are not the ones committing capital offenses. And how they would react to "memorable" punishment is not the same way an adult would react. Kids are a lot easier to mold. So, I don't want to talk about this, 'cause it isn't relevant.

That's kinda why I put a little smilie beside my comment. No biggie really. Just thought it was kind of funny.

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[Chileice]

Theo,
Your latest post was the best yet. You have laid out some very good arguments and have stayed away from just filling the page with emotionally charged material. Well done.

 

[Delmar]

It costs more to execute a convict then to keep him in prison for life!!!

It shouldn't! The fact that it does has nothing to do with the issue!

 

[JoyfulRook]

Yes.

What punishments are they authorized by God to use?

 

[JoyfulRook]

People who rape children (or commit other crimes of that nature) need HELP! .... People who commit crimes like that need therapy, counseling, whatever!

Why should we spend tens of thousands of dollars on a sick pervert like that? They should only cost .20 cents.