Battle Talk ~ BR XI

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Delmar

Delmar

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Delmar said:
This may be a bit off topic but Theo's Karla Faye Tucker story does a tremendous job of describing how going to college, even a "Republican college" ( I can only assume that was supposed to mean conservative), can turn your brain to mush!
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Sometimes I like to repeat myself!
 
Lighthouse

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Eisley said:
You are leaving out a very important part of this passage....

"Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was,
for you brought these judgements. For they have shed the blood of the saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!" (ESV)


I'm confused by this one. are you saying that the saints and prophets deserved to have their blood drank by those whom the Lord brought judgements against?
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:bang:
 
Lighthouse

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Chileice said:
I think TV is bringing the debate back in focus. Should a Christian support it?

As TV said:
At this point, I will remind you once again, the question of this debate is: “Should Christians support the DP?”

Should a Christian support the DP if that means they are to then judge hypocritically (as defined by Turbo), if they are to not show mercy as commanded by the Lord, and if they are to not forgive as the Lord commands?

I think there is plenty of evidence to say that we should NOT support it any more than we should support abortion or euthanasia.
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Abortion and euthanasio are about innocents being killed. Capital punishment is not. We should not support Abortion or euthanasia anymore than we should support someone cutting someone's throat. And to show that we do not support murder, murderers should be executed.
 
Lighthouse

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Theo-
The only thing that became useless at the cross was the law for the sake of righteousness.
 
ApologeticJedi

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Chileice said:
Contrary to what Turbo thinks, we are charged to obey the government authorities not out of fear but out of love! No doubt, Turbo argues this only to increase his misguided ideas that punishment deters crime! The influx of love in the end of chapter 13 shows the reason why we obey authorities.

It is extremely hard to discount that at the heart of Paul’s theological vantage was love. Love is so important to Paul that he views it above faith and hope:
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

For Paul, our motivations to do anything should be out of love, not fear!

Perfect love casts out all fear. The cross DOES make a difference. We are no longer slaves but children. We can move beyond the death penalty to a love.
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Don't you think it is unjoined to correlate the fact that Paul often spoke about love, into saying that Paul actually believed we should obey the government not out of fear? Where does Paul explicitly make that correlation? Yes, I agree he mentions "love", but where does Paul explicitly say that we shouldn't fear the government? Because that would be necessary to make that argument.

Doesn't Paul say "But if you do what is evil, be afraid!"(Rom 13:4a) and "Rulers are not to be a terror to good behavior, but to those that do evil" (Rom 13:3a)

Do the words "terrror" and "afraid" fit better with "fear" or "love" in your opinion?

Just wondering.
 
kmoney

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I have several thoughts on the BR so far but all I'll mention is that I think the argument about the death penalty being a deterrent is a tough one to make for either side. t_v is making arguments using statistics for the DP in the U.S., but the way the U.S. implements the DP is a far cry from what Turbo would advocate. From Turbo's side, we have nothing to really look at for how much of a deterrent the kind of DP he is advocating would be. As far as I know, no country executes capital punishment the way Turbo would want it to be executed. I guess I just don't see this argument doing much good from either side.
 
ApologeticJedi

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The funniest post thus far!!!!

Theo indicates that Genesis 9 doesn’t prescribe the Death Penalty (despite that every known commentary may say differently), because we don’t know who the word “man” refers to.

“Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed.” (Genesis 9:6)​

Obviously Theo is correct and no one can ever make heads-or-tails of this passage. :rolleyes: Don’t believe the abundance of commentators (or the clear reading of the text for that matter) that acknowledge this is the beginning of the Age of Government – clearly they are only pretending that this is a straightforward verse. Really, in some strange unexplainable way this is about cannibalism. :rotfl:

Also, it is quite humorous to hear Theo try to dismiss “the sword” as not being a lethal weapon, but just symbolism. I’m sure in his version of history Roman centurions carried their literal swords in vain, but not their authority. :chuckle:

Theo tries to argue that we should support punishment, but not condemnation. Obviously he plans at some point to try to argue that Capital Punishment is not a “punishment” at all, but eternal condemnation. I can’t wait - that should prove to be as humorous as his remarks on Genesis 9:6 and Romans 13:4.
 
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theo_victis

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Obviously Theo is correct and no one can ever make heads-or-tails of this passage. Don’t believe the abundance of commentators (or the clear reading of the text for that matter) that acknowledge this is the beginning of the Age of Government – clearly they are only pretending that this is a straightforward verse. Really, in some strange unexplainable way this is about cannibalism.
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Where does the context state a government?
 
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theo_victis

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Theo tries to argue that we should support punishment, but not condemnation.
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Turbo tries to argue that we should support the DP and forgiveness.. what a dichotomy! I forgive you! NOW DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Compare that to: I forgive you, now I am going to help you get better...

: )
 
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jasonalun

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I'm afraid not

I'm afraid not

Good exegesis? I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but not one commentator I have (and I have all the classics - Keil/Delitsch, Clarke, Gill, Henry, Barnes, etc.) agrees with TV's interpretation. That should tell you something.

Chileice said:
Wow! This is good and very insightful.
Genesis 9:1-8

Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. (2) The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. (3) Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. (4) "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. (5) And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. (6) "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man. (7) As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it." (8) Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him:

I studied lots of Hebrew and you are right on. The Hebrew idea of paralellism is found throughout the OT and this is a good exegesis. I'm not quoting all that you wrote but I do hope your detractors will at least afford you the courtesy of reading what you wrote on these verses. Well Done!
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theo_victis

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I have several thoughts on the BR so far but all I'll mention is that I think the argument about the death penalty being a deterrent is a tough one to make for either side. t_v is making arguments using statistics for the DP in the U.S., but the way the U.S. implements the DP is a far cry from what Turbo would advocate. From Turbo's side, we have nothing to really look at for how much of a deterrent the kind of DP he is advocating would be. As far as I know, no country executes capital punishment the way Turbo would want it to be executed. I guess I just don't see this argument doing much good from either side.
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So apparently statistics from America dont count because you dont like them? The stats speak for themselves. States without the DP have a lower murder rate then states with the DP.

As far as Turbo: Is argument falls apart in scripture. God had destroyed the world to stop the evil of mankind, yet it still persists till this day. Where is the deterrent? The wicked DO NOT fear the Lord.
 
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jasonalun

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theo_victis said:
I did not originate this interpretation.
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Doesn't the fact that all of the classic commentators disagree with you give you pause? Can you please tell us the name of the person who originated this interpretation, or who you read that espoused it? I've been studying Scripture for many, many years, and I've never come across it.
 
kmoney

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theo_victis said:
So apparently statistics from America dont count because you dont like them? The stats speak for themselves. States without the DP have a lower murder rate then states with the DP.

As far as Turbo: Is argument falls apart in scripture. God had destroyed the world to stop the evil of mankind, yet it still persists till this day. Where is the deterrent? The wicked DO NOT fear the Lord.
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Who said I didn't like the stats? All I said is that the stats are about a system that is far from what Turbo would want. Turbo favors the DP but he certainly doesn't favor the DP as the US uses it. If the system in the US was changed the stats you are using might look a lot different. That's all I'm saying.
 
JoyfulRook

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Dread Helm said:
What punishments are Governments authorized by God to use?
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Primghar still hasn't answered my question from page 11... :sigh:

PS. If you need help there are hints in the last post of the same page. ;)
 
ApologeticJedi

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theo_victis said:
Where does the context state a government?
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Most of Christianity has rightly called the age directly after the Flood the Age of Government. Spurgeon, Scofield, Calvin, and many modern scholars have called it that.



From Scofield's Study Bible:
"The First Dispensation: Innocency. Man was created in innocency, placed in a perfect environment, subjected to an absolutely simple test, and warned of the consequence of disobedience. The woman fell through pride; the man, deliberately (1 Tim. 2:14). God restored His sinning creatures, but the dispensation of innocency ended in the judgment of the Expulsion (Gen. 3:24). See, for the other dispensations: Conscience (Gen. 3:23); Human Government (Gen. 8:20); Promise (Gen. 12:1); Law (Ex. 19:8); Grace (John 1:17); Kingdom (Eph. 1:10)."
...
"The Noahic Covenant. The elements are:
(1) The relation of man to the earth under the Adamic Covenant is confirmed (Gen. 8:21).
(2) The order of nature is confirmed (Gen. 8:22).
(3) Human government is established (Gen. 9:1–6).
(4) Earth is secured against another universal judgment by water (Gen. 8:21; 9:11)"




from Matthew Henry's Commentary
"Whoso sheddeth man’s blood", whether upon a sudden provocation or having premeditated it (for rash anger is heart-murder as well as malice prepense, Mt. 5:21, 22), by man shall his blood be shed, that is, by the magistrate, or whoever is appointed or allowed to be the avenger of blood. There are those who are ministers of God for this purpose, to be a protection to the innocent, by being a terror to the malicious and evildoers, and they must not bear the sword in vain, Rom. 13:4.



​
 
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