Battle Talk ~ BR XI

[Eisley]

either way, the Lord is just in his actions, he would be just in giving every single living human the DP. I don't see your point.

 

[Army of One]

One thing I don't understand, is why Turbo insists that Theo submit authority to the gov. (and our government (U.S. or worldwide) is completely undecided on the subject of the DP, when he says over and over that our gov. does not do it correctly! Make up your mind, Turbo! you either have to submit to the gov. on this issue and respect how they are doing it, or you have freedom of speech to express your views....but then so do we!

Can you point to where Turbo has made this argument?

Eisley, do you care to answer this.

 

[Eisley]

And as I mentioned in my first round post, in at the beginning of Romans 13 Paul warns fellow believers not to commit crimes for fear of being punished by governing authorities. Paul had stated at the end of the previous chapter:

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Romans 12:19


Then just a few verses later he explains that God has delegated this responsibility to governing authorities, who are "God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath" on evildoers, who should "be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain" (Romans 13:4).

Did you catch that? Paul says that Vengeance is God's, and that we should give place to wrath. Then he immediately explains that governing authorities are "God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath."

Upon further reading, I think I am seeing the misunderstanding on this point. Turbo is saying that gov. should biblically be doing this, not that we should submit to our specific gov. authority as I originally thought he was saying.

However, Theo would argue that the romans passage does not "grant" authority to the gov. as regards the DP. That is just the difference of opinion.

Sorry for my misunderstanding.

 

[novice]

romans 13:3, please look at context, this passage is about authority

Exactly!

The governing authorities should execute wrath on those who practice evil, do you disagree?

 

[Eisley]

Do you translate "Wrath" as "death penalty" ? because if you do, then no. I believe in punishment (consequences) for criminals simply on the grounds that they can be a threat to society.

We all "practice evil", by the way.

 

[novice]

However, Theo would argue that the romans passage does not "grant" authority to the gov. as regards the DP. That is just the difference of opinion.

Sorry for my misunderstanding.

:chuckle: And what would "Theo" say that Romans 13 is "granting"?

Theo, Primghar, Eisley, Phantastes, you guy(s) are a trainwreck. This may be the most embarrassing display since Zakath in Battle Royale VII.

 

[Eisley]

What do we all think of Matthew 5:21-22: (ESV) "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire"

Do you believe that those who are angry or say, 'you fool', should also receive the DP, then, based on this?

 

[Eisley]

Theo, Primghar, Eisley, Phantastes, you guy(s) are a trainwreck. This may be the most embarrassing display since Zakath in Battle Royale VII.

How does this help your case at all? How does it promote unity and encouragement among the body of believers? Why can't we simply discuss the issue?

 

[novice]

Do you translate "Wrath" as "death penalty" ?

...for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

I suppose the sword is for chopping up the food in prison??? :rotfl:

 

[Eisley]

To answer your actual question: I don't know. But, I would say that it is not granting the gov. anything. Paul is addressing the church to talk about a specific issue (taxpaying) not the gov. to talk about the DP

 

[novice]

How does this help your case at all? How does it promote unity and encouragement among the body of believers? Why can't we simply discuss the issue?

I wish we could but it's obvious you are not equipped. You brought a "spork" to a sword fight.

 

[Eisley]

Sword does not always mean "death" in the bible. have you ever heard of a metaphor? In this case, the word means "authority". But don't take my word for it, look up the greek yourself.

 

[Eisley]

I wish we could but it's obvious you are not equipped. You brought a "spork" to a sword fight.

And I could say the same about you. Insulting people on here is ridiculously ineffective.

 

[novice]

Sword does not always mean "death" in the bible. have you ever heard of a metaphor? In this case, the word means "authority". But don't take my word for it, look up the greek yourself.

The word is... machaira; from 3164; a short sword or dagger: —sword(23), swords(6).

Furthermore....
Are you saying the verse should be translated...

Romans 13:4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the authority in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
​

Theo that makes utterly no sense whatsoever. The authority does not bear himself in vain???? Theo you are a fool. You should publicly repent and apologize for this foolishness.

Not to mention...
Paul used the Greek word for "authority" in the verse 3 which was ...

exousia; from 1832; power to act, authority​

He could have used the word "exousia" again in verse 4 had he wanted to.

Theo you have no argument.

 

[Eisley]

Hey, I am not Theo! don't bring him into this...

 

[novice]

And I could say the same about you. Insulting people on here is ridiculously ineffective.

You mean like....

I don't understand ignorant psychobabble. Sorry, Novice.

 

[Eisley]

Um, Novice, Paul wanted to use a word for "sword" because he was using a metaphor. a short sword is not used for executions. It was worn as a symbol of authority by emperors, etc. You are an extremely reactionary person. It is a huge claim to make that someone else should repent in this instance, especially when you are falsely accusing me of being someone I am not.

 

[Eisley]

no, not like that at all, which I already apologized for:

Attacking people personally is the worst form of debate. I apologize for what I said about you being ignorant. Ad hominim does is certainly not evidence for either side of the debate's arguments.

(quote by eisley)

 

[Army of One]

Um, Novice, Paul wanted to use a word for "sword" because he was using a metaphor. a short sword is not used for executions. It was worn as a symbol of authority by emperors, etc.

Where did you get that from?!?!?

 

[Eisley]

What does it matter? I'm not going to tell you what commentaries I am reading because you are all already so close-minded and sadistic that nothing I say is going to even come close to convincing you. Instead, you would rather attack each other. Novice, you even said that you viewed this board as a swordfight. I'm sickened...goodbye.