Originally posted by Turbo
Originally stated by Christ
If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:31
You haven't pointed out any factual errors in my arguments yet.
Originally posted by Turbo
Originally stated by Christ
If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:31
Originally posted by Zakath
PM me and I'll discuss it with you if you wish.
I have read hundreds of posts from unbelievers on this forum since this debate began, 2 months ago,who are sure that their science and their scientists have the proof to dispel the myths of God. Yet Zakath had to retire from the debate, and not even ten "good" men could be found to save the "10 th" post, even though there are dozens of experts in the peanut gallery. It is my prayer that you would all just for one week realize that your precious scientific "witnesses" are simply men, as evil and dishonest, yet also as "good" and as "comon" as your neighbor. If you could view them, or, as the case may be, yourselves, as most people view a lawyer or a politician you might have a better guauge for evaluating their "laws" and their "words."
Who do you picture in a clean white robe, a Scientist? or God?
How you honestly answered that question should speak to your heart. Think about it!
Originally posted by jeremiah
I have read hundreds of posts from unbelievers on this forum since this debate began, 2 months ago,who are sure that their science and their scientists have the proof to dispel the myths of God. Yet Zakath had to retire from the debate, and not even ten "good" men could be found to save the "10 th" post, even though there are dozens of experts in the peanut gallery.
Originally posted by Heino
Good day to you, too!
I, too, subscribe to scripture, but I draw the line when parts of it are open to interpretation. The concept of the logos, for example -- the word - was invented by Greek philosophers (I beleive Socrates or maybe a predicessor of his). I do not believe that when the Bible says that "In the beginning was THE WORD... and the Lord was THE WORD..." it means that God was a word. The Logos concept, from the Ancient Greeks does not mean literally, a word. It means a THOUGHT, INTELLIGENCE, CONSCIOUSNESS. The Bible is clearly figurative and poetic in some places, and clearly literal in others. I do not believe that all of it should be taken literally, especially when one does not understand the origins of some of the concepts used in it. It would be like taking Shakespeare's version of Julius Caesar as a literal history. I do not believe that the Bible says anything which contradicts evolutionary theory. I believe that the contradictions are derrived from our flawed, human interpretations of the bible.
Hello Heino & Lightson.
Surely it has to be a straight choice between creation and Evolution? If God created everything, then evolution does not occur, simply because God allegedly set it up, and then keeps on interfering at every stage.Thats not Evolution, that is mutiple guided creation;; so God is in there among the molecules, and in even less salubrious places controlling, guiding, interfering.
If on the other hand Evolution is true, then the Universe, as well as life as we know it, has been evolving entirely naturally, for ever (infinity). In this case it makes no sense to talk about God creating or guiding it. Which particular stages or stages did you have in mind for Gods constant jiggling with the molecules? It is a process that happens continually. not a one-off event. I thnk someone is committing the fallacy of Reification. Evolution is a happening, not a thing-to -be -created.
LIke you, I believe that God is revealed in his works. I believe that evolution is one of his great inventions. It does not shake my faith to know that the universe is older than 6,000 years. I do not think less of mankind because we evolved from homo erectus. In fact, one might imagine that Adam and Eve were the first fully modern humans, the end product of a process set into motion by God millions of years earlier. Of course, this is my opinion. I do not place much faith in this idea. It is, as we say, "idea stuff", just thoughts.
I agree. However, I must confess that I do not let my hair grow long, I do not stone people to death who sin against God, and I was never circumscised, all of which are things that God tells us to do (or at least he told the Hebrews to do). There are clearly commandments we have got from God which no western Christians practice, you or I included. How do you determine which commandments we follow, and which we don't?
I believe there is good evidence for localized floods in the region of the middle east. I believe that whoever wrote that the world was flooded, could easily have been exaggerating, because as far as the people who experienced the flood were oncerned, it was the whole world. These people could not see the whole world. They only saw what they could from their boat. The earth is round, and you cannot see beyond the horizon. What is not important is the size of the flood. What is important is the lesson learned from the chapter. As I said earlier, hwo many animals and the exact size of the ark is trivial. What is important is that we understand that God can pass judgement on us at any time, and we behave as he commands, and treat one another as we wish to be treated, and we must honor God's commands.
I do not believe that genesis has to be false in order for evolution to be true. I believe that enough facts are left out of Genesis to allow them to be compatible.
That all depends on whether you take Genesis 1 as literal or allegory. I believe that it is allegory. It is a lesson for us to learn from.
how so? I believe that God spend millions of years making us evolve slowly, like a sculptor spends weeks and months on a masterpiece. As I say, we have no reason to take it literally.
I do not understand how evolution means that we are not special. Why would God even bother to talk to the prophets, to send us Jesus the Messiah, and make this beautiful world for us to live in, if we are "merely biological life forms"? I believe that you are thinking about things that were left not said in the Bible. But I do not hold it against you. This is what fellowship is about -- two people talking about God. It doesn't matter if we agree, as long as we talk about it.
Originally posted by attention
Wadsworth:
"I do not believe that genesis has to be false in order for evolution to be true. I believe that enough facts are left out of Genesis to allow them to be compatible"
The genesis account of a creation of earth prior to the other stellar objects (including the sun), even when taken allegorically, is not compatible with a scientific model of the cosmos, since we know that earth was made of stuff that originate from stars.
It is always good to have the devil's advocate. However, I do not believe that historic events are "random" events. Every event in history is caused by an event preceeding it, by factors leading up to it. They are not random; they are just complex, much to the point that people find it difficult to track. However, if one tracks factors leading up to an event, one can never find anything random, in reality. All this is done in retrospect, of course, but I assure you that nothing in nature happens randomly. If it did, then, for me, God would become illogical and irrational.Originally posted by Stratnerd
Sorry Heino, I should have been specific...
I was addressing this statement "Nothing in science happens at random" and I was thinking that much of evolution, in particular the historical aspects, are "random" and the examples I gave were movement of populations with tectonic (which will include some taxa and not others) and I'm sure there are numerous (millions upon millions) other contingencies (including life evolving itself).
But I'm just playing the devil's advocate (some probably think literally)and I think I get the jist of what you're saying.
What is wrong with this:Originally posted by Wadsworth
Surely it has to be a straight choice between creation and Evolution? If God created everything, then evolution does not occur, simply because God allegedly set it up, and then keeps on interfering at every stage.
But the bible says that God is in all things. He is everywhere. If that is true, then he can be guiding our evolution. Is that not like so-called intelligent design?Thats not Evolution, that is mutiple guided creation;; so God is in there among the molecules, and in even less salubrious places controlling, guiding, interfering.
God is infinite, is he not? So God has been "growing" the universe, cultivating it, nurturing it, all along. I still see no reason why evolution cannot be part of his work.If on the other hand Evolution is true, then the Universe, as well as life as we know it, has been evolving entirely naturally, for ever (infinity).
I disagree. If god is everywhere, and he is in everything, then he is part of the fabric of the universe, and of all matter. It only makes sense that he is constantly helping things along. You have a plan for a garden, do you not prune it and pull weeds? God is a gardener, and we are the plants; his word and the church is the pruner. God is everywhere. How can he not be influencing the process of evolution? One might say that now, as we have evolved to humans, God is now helping our mind and spirit to evolve.In this case it makes no sense to talk about God creating or guiding it. Which particular stages or stages did you have in mind for Gods constant jiggling with the molecules? It is a process that happens continually. not a one-off event. I thnk someone is committing the fallacy of Reification. Evolution is a happening, not a thing-to -be -created.
Originally posted by Heino
It is always good to have the devil's advocate. However, I do not believe that historic events are "random" events. Every event in history is caused by an event preceeding it, by factors leading up to it. They are not random; they are just complex, much to the point that people find it difficult to track. However, if one tracks factors leading up to an event, one can never find anything random, in reality. All this is done in retrospect, of course, but I assure you that nothing in nature happens randomly. If it did, then, for me, God would become illogical and irrational.
As Einstein once said, "God does not play dice with the universe."
There is a reason for everything. Everything has a cause.
[/QUOTE
I agree absolutely that there are no random events, and everything has a cause. This is what scientists and evolutionists have been trying to tell you. Evolution is NOT random. However, it says nothing abou God, and if you want to invoke the first cause argument, (which has been repeatedly demolished by cleverer people than me), we can with greater justification claim that yhe Universe has existed for ever, and so does not need an arbitrary invented cause like "God" to account for it. After all we live with the Universe, it is all around us, but where is God?
Originally posted by Heino
What is wrong with this:
God created the universe. He created the laws of physics. He created the laws of chemistry and atomic particles. He created the earth. Then he created life, and he created a process called evolution to help life adapt to changes on the earth, of which there have been many. Wait a few hundred million years, until evolution has come up with beings like us, and God come down and starts talking to us, to teach us.
You can have it both ways, so they say. I believe that it is only very strict literal interpretations that have a problem.
But the bible says that God is in all things. He is everywhere. If that is true, then he can be guiding our evolution. Is that not like so-called intelligent design?
God is infinite, is he not? So God has been "growing" the universe, cultivating it, nurturing it, all along. I still see no reason why evolution cannot be part of his work.
I disagree. If god is everywhere, and he is in everything, then he is part of the fabric of the universe, and of all matter. It only makes sense that he is constantly helping things along. You have a plan for a garden, do you not prune it and pull weeds? God is a gardener, and we are the plants; his word and the church is the pruner. God is everywhere. How can he not be influencing the process of evolution? One might say that now, as we have evolved to humans, God is now helping our mind and spirit to evolve.
Originally posted by Heino
What is wrong with this:
God created the universe. He created the laws of physics. He created the laws of chemistry and atomic particles. He created the earth. Then he created life, and he created a process called evolution to help life adapt to changes on the earth, of which there have been many. Wait a few hundred million years, until evolution has come up with beings like us, and God come down and starts talking to us, to teach us.
You can have it both ways, so they say. I believe that it is only very strict literal interpretations that have a problem.
But the bible says that God is in all things. He is everywhere. If that is true, then he can be guiding our evolution. Is that not like so-called intelligent design?
God is infinite, is he not? So God has been "growing" the universe, cultivating it, nurturing it, all along. I still see no reason why evolution cannot be part of his work.
I disagree. If god is everywhere, and he is in everything, then he is part of the fabric of the universe, and of all matter. It only makes sense that he is constantly helping things along. You have a plan for a garden, do you not prune it and pull weeds? God is a gardener, and we are the plants; his word and the church is the pruner. God is everywhere. How can he not be influencing the process of evolution? One might say that now, as we have evolved to humans, God is now helping our mind and spirit to evolve.